The Contrarian Viewpoint: Grossman can play

[Boone]

Obviously, I acknowledged the 'contrarian' component here at the outset. Few would argue Rex hasn't done a 'decent' or 'serviceable' job coming in to start the final 3 games. I'm arguing he's been far better than that. And I'm leaving open the possibility that, if he is 'the guy' next season, with better protection and more time practicing with the guys on this roster, we may get surprised with how well he can play.

As for the physical limitations, most QBs have some weak component of their game - it's how well that can be managed and compensated for that determines how big a factor it becomes.

I've been arguing that 'we need to draft a young franchise QB' for years. My position hasn't changed. But those of you arguing that alongside me better be prepared for what we'll have to sacrifice to get him. We're not going to finish 1-15 or even 3-13 with this coaching staff. We're just not. That means we WILL be throwing players you love into the mix to move up either this year or next if Shanahan decides we're right about QB needs. I hope you're prepared to wave goodbye to a Chris Cooley level player because it'll take that kind of move to get there.

In the meantime, I think we could do a lot worse than Grossman and I think he is going to prove some folks wrong if given the opportunity next year.

PS - Henry, on the 'pressure' comment, I agree with you for the most part, the 'pressure' I was referring to was being brought in supposedly having the Shanahan's confidence, with a history of meltdowns and having to perform under the brutal scrutiny of angry Redskins fans. I consider that a lot of pressure.

 

[fansince62]

This team is going nowhere until it finds and acquires a young potential top-tier NFL quarterback. Grossman may be fine as a temporary place holder, better than McNabb in my view, but nothing more.

With the Skins it's not the o-line, it's not the receivers, it's not the quarterback. It's all of the above. Only a quality qb can make those around him better. Without a talent under center this team can hope for no more than occasionally being a nice overachieving group that, when the stars align, can compete for the final wild card spot.

yup. and that is what Grossman is.

when I first read Boone's post I thought "That sly dog..he knows Grossman will start next year. He knows Grossman will screw up somewhere along the line (that's his MO). He knows this board will go nuts when that happens. This is a preemptive strike!"

probably off the mark........all I can say is Boone is basically saying "I believe he'll do better than many of you think"....others, like me, are saying "history, physical limitations and even current performance all suggest otherwise."

you know...winning one in every 3 games equates to a 5 win season (plus an undecided!). just sayin.... ....

 

[Bulldog]

I can see the Redskins signing Grossman for 2011 to be the mentor to a young qb or the backup to a veteran who is learning the new system. But he is a lot like Todd Collins, a former high pick, whose physical limitations have prevented him from securing a starting job in the NFL.

He can come on in relief and lead a drive for a TD or manage 2-3 games while a starter is out with an injury.

But he is not a player who is going to be a 16 game starter nor should he be at this point.

He has thrown TD passes since relieving McNabb at QB, but he has also had a LOT of problems with ball security, both interceptions and fumbles.

If you are going to throw 4 touchdowns I suppose 1 interception is survivable but the constant string of fumbles when hit is a real issue for a team trying to win 10 plus games in a season.

You don't see winning qbs in the NFL giving the opposition the ball like Rex does.

And again I go back to his talent. He is short by NFL standards and slight of build. His arm strength is average. He lacks mobility.

He is a player that would have been a lot more effective playing in the NFL in the 1970's or 1980's when quarterbacks like Bob Griese, Joe Theismann, Dan Fouts, etc. were a similar size and build.

 

[fansince62]

I can see the Redskins signing Grossman for 2011 to be the mentor to a young qb or the backup to a veteran who is learning the new system. But he is a lot like Todd Collins, a former high pick, whose physical limitations have prevented him from securing a starting job in the NFL.

He can come on in relief and lead a drive for a TD or manage 2-3 games while a starter is out with an injury.

But he is not a player who is going to be a 16 game starter nor should he be at this point.

He has thrown TD passes since relieving McNabb at QB, but he has also had a LOT of problems with ball security, both interceptions and fumbles.

If you are going to throw 4 touchdowns I suppose 1 interception is survivable but the constant string of fumbles when hit is a real issue for a team trying to win 10 plus games in a season.

You don't see winning qbs in the NFL giving the opposition the ball like Rex does.

And again I go back to his talent. He is short by NFL standards and slight of build. His arm strength is average. He lacks mobility.

He is a player that would have been a lot more effective playing in the NFL in the 1970's or 1980's when quarterbacks like Bob Griese, Joe Theismann, Dan Fouts, etc. were a similar size and build.

bingo. and I would add in decision-making. yes...he runs the offense...but then does these dumb things at least 2 or 3 times every game when under pressure.

 

[Boone]

I'm also saying 'I'm more hopeful with Grossman in there (warts and all) that we can win any given game than I was for the entire Jason Campbell era or any other time this year. That's not to say *very hopeful* (which is where I think you guys are misconstruing my tepid support of the guy) of winning any given game, just more hopeful than with Mcnabb or his predecessors in there.

 

[fansince62]

I'm also saying 'I'm more hopeful with Grossman in there (warts and all) that we can win any given game than I was for the entire Jason Campbell era or any other time this year. That's not to say *very hopeful* (which is where I think you guys are misconstruing my tepid support of the guy) of winning any given game, just more hopeful than with Mcnabb or his predecessors in there.

we find common ground here...though I think McNabb is more an instrance of wil than ability. He's a multi-time Pro Bowler. He can execute this offense. He just has to be willing to do so under KS's way of doing business.

 

[China]

I'm also saying 'I'm more hopeful with Grossman in there (warts and all) that we can win any given game than I was for the entire Jason Campbell era...

That's not saying much. Did Jason Campbell ever lead a game winning drive in the 4th quarter? Hell, he could barely move the offense and the team averaged what, fewer than 20 points a game while he was QB?

 

[Boone]

I can see the Redskins signing Grossman for 2011 to be the mentor to a young qb or the backup to a veteran who is learning the new system. But he is a lot like Todd Collins, a former high pick, whose physical limitations have prevented him from securing a starting job in the NFL.

He can come on in relief and lead a drive for a TD or manage 2-3 games while a starter is out with an injury.

But he is not a player who is going to be a 16 game starter nor should he be at this point.

He has thrown TD passes since relieving McNabb at QB, but he has also had a LOT of problems with ball security, both interceptions and fumbles.

If you are going to throw 4 touchdowns I suppose 1 interception is survivable but the constant string of fumbles when hit is a real issue for a team trying to win 10 plus games in a season.

You don't see winning qbs in the NFL giving the opposition the ball like Rex does.

And again I go back to his talent. He is short by NFL standards and slight of build. His arm strength is average. He lacks mobility.

He is a player that would have been a lot more effective playing in the NFL in the 1970's or 1980's when quarterbacks like Bob Griese, Joe Theismann, Dan Fouts, etc. were a similar size and build.

The only real argument I have with your points would be that most NFL QBs hang onto the ball when taking blindside hits (nearly every one of Grossman's fumbles occurred because of one). Big Ben and a few others who have the ideal size and frame you referenced might be exceptions. But generally, an NFL QB gets hit from the rear by guys like OSI coming at full steam, the balls coming out and it matters little who the QB is.

I'm not going to overstate that - you guys are right that the turnovers have been the biggest concern with Grossman. I'm just pointing out they don't occur in a vacuum.

 

[Bulldog]

can anyone believe that after 16 games we are all essentially agreeing that Grossman right now is a better option at QB for the Redskins than McNabb?

imagine if someone had posted that 8-10 months ago?

they would have been run out of DC on a rail

 

[Boone]

Todd Collins anyone?

I have to agree with those that say he'd be OK as an interim guy while we get and develop a rookie QB.

Too many turnovers, I don't care how you parse it. It seems he gives up almost as many points as gets. He makes it difficult for an already weak defense, except when they're pick-6s and the defense doesn't even have to come on the field. The Redskins are the 2nd lowest scoring team in the NFL since 1992. We can't afford to give away points especially since we can't seem to make them up.

I also argued we'd have won a lot more with Todd Collins as our starter than Jason Campbell. But ultimately you and Bulldog raise valid points. The turnover thing is 'valid', but again, Trent Williams letting the pash rush by him to get a free shot at Grossman's back - how is that an indictment of Grossman. I think if you looked at the nature of the turnover's Rex had, minus his previous baggage, we'd be a lot more generous in our assessment.

Biggest issue he has from my vantage point are the physical limitations. Mark Brunnell had the same challenges.

I'm really (as stated in the original post) not in love with Grossman. I see a lot of what you guys see despite trying to give a counter viewpoint. I just think the sum total of what we saw was far more positive and promising than concerning. He could buy us several years to make the improvements elsewhere we need to make, whether he's grooming a youngster or not.

 

[Boone]

can anyone believe that after 16 games we are all essentially agreeing that Grossman right now is a better option at QB for the Redskins than McNabb?

imagine if someone had posted that 8-10 months ago?

they would have been run out of DC on a rail

True dat.

Sigh.

 

[fansince62]

I also argued we'd have won a lot more with Todd Collins as our starter than Jason Campbell. But ultimately you and Bulldog raise valid points. The turnover thing is 'valid', but again, Trent Williams letting the pash rush by him to get a free shot at Grossman's back - how is that an indictment of Grossman. I think if you looked at the nature of the turnover's Rex had, minus his previous baggage, we'd be a lot more generous in our assessment.

Biggest issue he has from my vantage point are the physical limitations. Mark Brunnell had the same challenges.

I'm really (as stated in the original post) not in love with Grossman. I see a lot of what you guys see despite trying to give a counter viewpoint. I just think the sum total of what we saw was far more positive and promising than concerning. He could buy us several years to make the improvements elsewhere we need to make, whether he's grooming a youngster or not.

maybe...maybe not. Campbell, for example, was blind sided a lot cuz he held onto the ball too long. and as I noted...Rex has a tendancy to do dumb things under pressure...like running backward 10 to 15 yards and winging the ball into the air off his back foot to God knows what intended target.

 

[Bulldog]

I think anything more than a one year contract extension for Rex and a strong push to find a future starter in the draft or via free agency will be a mistake.

 

[Elephant]

Come on Mike, I can name 4 turnovers that were not his "fault". Sellers ran the wrong route twice in that stretch, one last night, resulting in 2 INT's and last night Trent Williams could not handle Osi for 2 strips resulting in fumbles. There was at least one that I can say Rex had no business throwing that resulted in a INT, but to claim he was responsible for all 8 is not being fair.

 

[Boone]

Unless Shanahan is lying, he clearly stated in the presser that Sellers ran the wrong route, going downfield when he should have cut back in the flat for the ball (right where it was thrown).

Grossman has thrown up a few lame duck passes. But overall, I'd have to say his decision-making has looked leap years beyond what we've seen from Mcnabb this season.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

who would have ever thought id stick up for grossman? but honestly he has looked at least competant and at times very good. his downfall has always been stupid turnovers but on the fumbles its not all on him. and remember dave Krieg who was a pretty good QB used to be johnny fumblitis too.

 

[servumtuum]

I hate to throw an extra doubt in here (not really, but...), but I can't help but wonder if at least some of Grossman's performance in the better-than-we-had-been-expecting category might be due to lack of exposure? There wasn't much on tape of him QBing the Redskins for opposing teams to scrutinize up until the last few games. I know they could look at Bears tapes but I am a firm believer that changing team situations can have a dramatic effect on how a QB performs, sometimes better, sometimes worse but generally "different" due to coaching, scheme, personnel,,,etc.

 

[Bulldog]

Sellers at 35 is a guy that has continued to come up in re blown pass routes and blocking penalties on kicks and punts. Perhaps its time to let #45 amble down the road?

For a veteran he just keeps making the same mistakes over and over again.

 

[fansince62]

Come on Mike, I can name 4 turnovers that were not his "fault". Sellers ran the wrong route twice in that stretch, one last night, resulting in 2 INT's and last night Trent Williams could not handle Osi for 2 strips resulting in fumbles. There was at least one that I can say Rex had no business throwing that resulted in a INT, but to claim he was responsible for all 8 is not being fair.

that's not the point. the point is that RG has a history of turnovers following him wherever he goes.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

but he is also a pretty solid player overall and plays a position that not a lot of guys are good at. and he is damn solid at the goalline.