The Bombshell

[Boone]

Let's seek agreement on reasonable statements then (although I think you should understand the bold and underlined points are where contention lies). Let's see if we can clearly distill truth from the fog here.

1) The buildup of this story prior to its release, purely on rumor and speculation, was bigger than the actual story. I think that is something arguable. This is not some obvious point, like you are stating; some people simply may not agree and I think that's understandable. For the record, I do agree with that statement. I already posted in this thread; this story is not surprising in many ways. Dan Snyder is a poor leader, and kind of a scummy individual in many ways. He hides from the limelight a lot because I don't really think he knows how to convince people otherwise, and probably like many people he does not see him the way others do. Simple psychology, and I won't digress further. Suffice it to say, though, Dan Snyder running an organization with a major sexual harassment scandal in the NFL doesn't need to be a surprise to anyone, in my opinion either, but I can understand that others may disagree.

2) This behavior is abhorrent, and does not have a place in modern society. I find this thread and a lot of discussions really interesting, because I think they are instructive on some major issues here. Do we understand that societal norms need to evolve sometimes? When we as a society recognize something is wrong, we have a duty to try to fix it in order to simply improve society (since the alternative is to observe behavior that we find morally repugnant). The fact that our opinion as a society evolved is not something to ignore or dismiss as wrong; it is correct for us to reexamine ourselves and seek to improve. It is almost a basic requirement of intellect, to be honest; that is a fact that seems increasingly lost on many people. When we disagree on what is wrong, of course, that is a different issue.

So personally, I feel that is at the crux. Let's put #1 aside for a moment. Do we all agree on #2? No one cares about the past. No one cares about NFL culture when we consider #2 in the context of society as a whole. Some are equating this with the "woke mob" and ascribing the pejorative connotation with pure disdain. I get it. Do you understand what I wrote in #2? You see, the "woke mob" exists in your mind as a pejorative when you disagree that something is wrong. If you agree that something is wrong, that description should not really apply, because at that point, we are seeking to right a wrong together. When you use that label, it definitely sounds like #2 is not in agreement. That type of messaging in your posts is what is causing some wrangling I think on many points. If we come together and clearly state agreement on #2, then I think a lot of problems are solved. I hear some words that sound like #2 is agreed upon, and yet I at the same time hear words that disagree with #2.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

Nicely said. What's problematic is, despite trying to wordsmith around it or provide lip service, some apparently feel the behavior is 'not wrong enough'.

For those folks - I don't get you, and I'm not sure I want to.

 

[Chris]

I’m of the mind that it is not ‘just’ 15 women. More like it’s 15 women so far. More will now find the courage to come forward.

Multiple NDAs ( and the associated monetary compensation) being utilized shows an intentional strategy to sweep the issue under a rug. If they occurred over a period of time, and not solely related to one incident like the calendar shoot shenanigans, then it looks like an on-going conspiracy.

Someone oversaw, approved, and made those hush money payments. I wonder who?

 

[Boone]

I have a real problem with the NFL allowing Snyder to 'hire' his own investigator. In what reality is that how these things are done? It makes me think they want this to go away as quickly as humanly possible and that that's their highest priority.

 

[SkinsNumberOne]

I played football for 20 years, I dated a professional cheerleader, I have friends who played in the NFL close friends, which is why I am not not shocked at this, not even a little bit. you all want to get outraged? fine, but dont act like you didnt know this shit was endemic. you remind me of the people who got outraged at weinstein, when half of hollywood made jokes about his casting couch for years.

I think one line you are missing that many are drawing here; this happened in the Redskins FO. Not in a locker room. There is a big difference between those two places. I'm not saying that sexual harassment in a locker room is acceptable either, by the way. Not at all. However, I think harassment in a job in the front office is even more absurd. Further, the picture painted would seem to indicate that many in upper management knew about it, recognized it, and did not care. Again, in the front office. Let's not conflate the two.

Let's imagine a simple scenario here that may have even played out.

- a female interviews for a job. She chooses to dress in a way that society has taught her is attractive. Maybe to a point where she knows guys would generally be attracted to her (it's easy for her to know that; when she goes out in this style, she sees the looks, gets plenty of attention, etc.). She gets the job. Now she comes to work and dresses in a similar fashion.
Do we all agree that she should not be made to feel uncomfortable by a superior? This seems to have happened repeatedly here.

This is simple, but sometimes what is simple is honestly easy to miss. So let me shine a light on it: If they think she can't do the job as described in a professional job description (no more and no less), fire her. She is a human being. There is no reason to treat her (or anyone else) as less than one. Have I been mistreated by my boss? Sure. Have you? Probably. I imagine most of us who have been around for a few years have had a jerk boss or 10. Maybe we've been a jerk boss at some point (not to that level I hope, but no one is perfect, maybe we made a mistake at some point which we regret). But my point is that if you read the article (did you?), this is inappropriate office behavior and is standard for getting let go in any sensible organization. Yes, they were let go, but again: important salient point here; they were fired only when a public article was to be released, in spite of years of this behavior. Snyder does not get to do to that, rub his hands together, and say "problem solved."

You seem to be honestly confused about why this is so bad, and I can only assume you do not understand some of the above underlined context.

 

[bnacpa]

So more thoughts since my last post on all of this ...

Some people have suggested that the women who were asked to wear tight clothing and heels were appropriately addressed as they knew those were the requirements when they got the job ... I would say unless we know that she was hired specifically for a sex appeal job function ... such as a modeling position, then it is complete BS to assume that any young attractive female should know they are attractive and therefore such dialogue, tone, or any other action telling them to sex themselves up is appropriate. If you are a model and someone instructs you to wear sexy clothing for a photo shoot ... then sure. For example, Redskins cheerleaders should be expected to wear bathing suits for a swimsuit calendar. However, if you are hired to perform a normal function that is not based on sex appeal ... such as front office staff positions, then it is a very strong NO ... there is nothing appropriate about telling someone to wear tighter clothing and heels. If they come in wearing a t-shirt and athletic shorts and you tell them that that is not correct business attire, then you are in fair bounds. If you tell a woman to wear something snug so you can admire her backside, lower the buttons so you can see more cleavage, or anything else that sexualizes or objectifies them, then you are clearly in the wrong.

When married men are hitting on women who are there to do their job - such as front office staff or reporters ... it is completely wrong to ask if they are interested in you. In fact, it doesn't matter if you are married (that just makes it more hideous) ... you should not be asking any such questions or taking the conversation to those places when you are actively working with people and you are in a position of power. If you catch them at a bar after work and you don't directly work with them or have influence over their job (directly or indirectly) - then what happens between two consenting adults is their business. But when one has the power or is perceived to have the power to direct the success of that coworker or professional colleague - then there are boundaries that should be respected.


Onto Dan (and Tanya's) message to the team employees. Here is what was blatantly missing: True authentic ownership of the problem. Dan never mentioned that he was wrong to tease a man who had been a cheerleader earlier in life. He should have acknowledged that his intent wasn't to hurt that man's feelings and his statements were meant to be light playfulness and how he truly regrets making him or anyone present for his behavior feel picked on or hurt feelings. He should have stated that he recognizes from these reports that the structure he has had in place has not been adequate and he takes full responsibility for that oversight and is actively taking steps to correct those mistakes. Instead - he makes a PR apology by saying he apologies that this happened (similar to I am sorry your feelings were hurt ... which is much different from I am sorry I hurt your feelings) ... and he says it is everyone's problem to fix.

At this point, how does it hurt for him to expose some vulnerability and tell everyone he is truly sorry he didn't do enough to instill a culture where people felt safe to voice wrong things taking place? Ironically, if he had fostered that kind of environment, he likely would have incurred far less in legal fees, penalties, and future legal settlements which will come from all this and past issues he has had a hand (directly or indirectly) in making ... since loyal employees who feel a sense of ownership - especially in small organizations - will be more forthcoming in actively trying to deal with something and make it better ... so if it is a one-time event and corrective action is taken - maybe someone gets disciplined or loses their job, but it doesn't blow up to something worse. Also, you don't gain the reputation of being a toxic place where you are warned before going there and you plan to be there for a short time and leave. How many people at Redskins Park have been in their roles for 10, 20, 30+ years? How many more have been there for 10 or less?

Since day 1, as has been well documented, Dan Snyder has come in as an arrogant thug. He hasn't gone in trying to learn, slowly make changes after getting a good understanding of how everything is done, and embrace the culture. He showed up with a know-it-all attitude and has tripped on himself over and over again. He also doesn't learn from it. Seriously ... only Dan could go from Vinny Cerrato to Vinny part 2 in Bruce Allen. Funny how both were here well past when their track record suggested they should get fired. Front office .... If I acquired a franchise that I bragged about to everyone about how they had a fantastically rich tradition of winning ... wouldn't you want to keep the culture that was there in place .... as if they have been doing it right, lets adapt ourselves and learn from it, before making slight adjustments. So here we are now ... with still no ownership. He acts like he is as surprised as all of us ... as if he just walked in last week and he is rushing to fix things as soon as he's learned about it.

This is so sad ... the state of the team, not my perfectly flawed run-on sentences ;-)

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

BNACPA the woman who complained about the heels was hired as a "greeter" I would assume when she was hired, she was told what the job entailed but other than that, I agree. if it was just a refular secretary job or something then its out of line, but still not on the level of "BIBLICAL"

I find it amusing that because I said this was not the apocolyptic biblical story we were sold and because I said its actually pretty common place in the NFL somehow thats being misrepresented as me saying that it is ok. I literally said it was inappropriate and not ok in the work place, I do hold snyder accountable for the culture of this team and frankly its been unprofessional there for a long time.

what annoys me is you purposefully misreading me Boone, I said that there are levels, nerds hitting on women at work is inappropriate, sexual assault, open trading sex for advancement, sing power to coerce is a different level. this is not complex, all of them are wrong but only an idiot would say they are all of the same level.

unless more details come out, there was nothing in this story that met the claims of being world ending.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

I do think that when you have 15 complaints, its pretty obvious there is a problem that needs to be dealt with. harshly.

 

[bnacpa]

I agree that the pre-release hype of what this could be became dramatized into extreme situations of sex slaves, owners and coaches getting involved in misdeeds, and many sensational activities that would have been less, for lack of a better term, mainstream inappropriate from a national headline situation than what has been reported by the Post so far. This wasn’t on the level of Epstein in terms of numbers, lewd acts, ages involved, and bribery.

Conversely, it doesn’t have to be sensational to be extremely disgusting, another display of horrendous judgement by Danny Napoleon - who absolutely should have seen this coming based on what the right thing to do would be as well as the heightened sensitivity from the #me too movement. Heck - for those involved - ever since Brett Farve got busted with his pecker texted to the girl working for the Jets ... people should know that you don’t know who will hold onto what you text. So follow the best practice rule of assuming anything you send or say in public could end up seen or heard by the head of your league, company, spouse, the press, or your children - so conduct yourself as if it will be and keep to the high road.

 

[bnacpa]

You think Walmart greeters should wear tight skirts and heels? (Just teasing). Hate when I give myself bad images

 

[ntotoro]

You think Walmart greeters should wear tight skirts and heels?

I live near Winchester

No

 

[SilentThreat]

Been off the board for a few hours.. whatd i miss?

 

[Bulldog]

Anyone catch word of Dan’s apology to internal staff that carried his wife’s co-authorship (supposed).

Typical response - if there is a controversy in re mistreatment of women, trot a woman out there to show ‘we care’.

And then name a female attorney to review the team’s action.

Dan’s weak and cynical attempt to be inclusive at this late date only makes it look worse

 

[Boone]

I just made this point on Twitter. In any modern corporate environment in this same scenario, the CEO would almost certainly already be gone, hostile work environment complaints/lawsuits would have been filed, and

BNACPA the woman who complained about the heels was hired as a "greeter" I would assume when she was hired, she was told what the job entailed but other than that, I agree. if it was just a refular secretary job or something then its out of line, but still not on the level of "BIBLICAL"

I find it amusing that because I said this was not the apocolyptic biblical story we were sold and because I said its actually pretty common place in the NFL somehow thats being misrepresented as me saying that it is ok. I literally said it was inappropriate and not ok in the work place, I do hold snyder accountable for the culture of this team and frankly its been unprofessional there for a long time.

what annoys me is you purposefully misreading me Boone, I said that there are levels, nerds hitting on women at work is inappropriate, sexual assault, open trading sex for advancement, sing power to coerce is a different level. this is not complex, all of them are wrong but only an idiot would say they are all of the same level.

unless more details come out, there was nothing in this story that met the claims of being world ending.

No one said they are all on the same level. There are varying degrees of sexual harassment and inappropriateness. That's exactly why I've made the point that ogling photos is nowhere in the same neighborhood as actual sexual harassment of another human. As far as the 'biblical' comment you keep obsessing over, I haven't heard anyone say that either. The fact that some folks on social media leaked rumors that so far appear to not be part of the allegations has nothing to do with anything. Almost everyone here thinks what occurred is absolutely awful. You say, yeah, sexual harassment is bad and that what went on at Redskins Park and elsewhere shouldn't be tolerated, but you have also said a great deal that communicates you clearly don't see any of it as much of a big deal. If you did, you wouldn't be spending most of your time here trying to paint the vast majority who find the whole matter disgusting and unacceptable as over-reactive and hysterical. Everyone here gets it - there are worse things that happen in the world. For the 10th time I'll ask, so what?

You are annoyed? If you don't want to be characterized as someone who is minimizing what these women experienced, then STOP minimizing what these women experienced in your posts. That's not on me. That's on you. I have this rule I try to follow in life. When a bunch of people tell me I'm wrong, or tone deaf, or need to rethink something, I at least consider the possibility that perhaps I have missed something, or that they might have a point, or that I am poorly communicating what I believe. I could possibly even be wrong. But that's just me.

I, for the life of me, cannot fathom how we cannot have consensus on something so ugly and reprehensible. This isn't about politics or world view or 'the media'. It's about a bunch of pigs who abused women under the banner of the football team we love. It's not that complicated guys. It's very disappointing that we have spent most of our time arguing about 'how bad' it was instead of how it can be stopped and people held accountable.

 

[Boone]

Anyone catch word of Dan’s apology to internal staff that carried his wife’s co-authorship (supposed).

Typical response - if there is a controversy in re mistreatment of women, trot a woman out there to show ‘we care’.

And then name a female attorney to review the team’s action.

Dan’s weak and cynical attempt to be inclusive at this late date only makes it look worse

So typical of Snyder to use his wife as a shield and prop. What the hell does 'Tanya' have to do with this? Is she a co-owner? Is she employed by the team in any way? This guy is a gutless SOB who has zero understanding or remorse for his role in creating the worst culture in sports.

 

[CounterTrey]

FWIW I think a large part of the continued acrimony is because people who are long standing members have seemingly been banned over it. I also know that as a Redskins fan I have taken heat just for that...being a Redskins fan and when this was all on the horizon people who hate the Redskins were piling on like nobody's business. I personally found that upsetting and when it turns out it wasn't anywhere close to the hype we got for over 48hrs about this I think a few folks being outraged about that aspect of it is warranted. Look John this overblown, hysterical, MSM freakout is EXACTLY why the name is changing (and I will be clear I think it IS overblown. It's the equivalent of crying bloody murder over someone getting popped in the lip). This stuff is hitting at the EXACT same time and I have a hard time buying the timing of it as coincidental when the WP is the source. I agree with your sentiments about the unacceptable nature of all this but until we get more feedback from other more credible sources I will ALWAYS question anything the WP publishes.

I will never give Snyder a pass, but I do find it interesting that we've been clamoring for him to step away from daily operations and distance himself for literally decades. He by all appearances had done that the last few years. That distancing would absolutely create a culture of while the cat's away the mice will play, with little to no accountability( especially with a clueless child like Gruden in charge). Again nothing OK about this but I don't find the possibility of Snyder being completely clueless about it very remote. In fact I find it likely, he seems like a clueless dipshit to me. Still the buck stops with him so if it happened on his watch he's responsible. I just take issue with the continued implication that he MUST have been tangibly involved.

Last but not least, we have come so far with the metoo stuff that masculinity in any form has become "toxic" in some circles. We are going too far to the point of absurdity. Guys give other guys grief for masculine things all the time and that's not going to change. Right or wrong in the eyes of MOST men Male Cheerleading is NOT a feather in the tough guy hat. That should be off limits in the workplace but if you're really expecting guys to stop teasing male cheerleaders you're just not being realistic. That to me comes nowhere near the stories the 15 women have told but some of it is a bit silly. Bosses tell employees they are stupid or incompetent all the time, it's part of life. Dickhead boss but there is just no way to sanitize the world from that, it happens to men too with frequency and honestly is often deserved. I can tell ya if the WP asked me about an incident like that I sure as hell wouldn't allow it to be published. I got called stupid and I'm still butthurt over that? I'll keep that one to myself.

 

[Boone]

FWIW I think a large part of the continued acrimony is because people who are long standing members have seemingly been banned over it.

I'm sure there's some truth to that, thanks CT. We aren't going to publicly discuss action taken by staff with members. We have taken action with members so rarely I could probably count those instances on 2 hands. That's a good day's work on most sites. The two involved here have a long history on the site. They also have a long history of ignoring staff feedback and guidance on what we are looking for here. If anyone believes either guy got tossed because we 'disagreed with their posts', I'd point you to 5 or 6 other guys, currently posting whom most if not all of our staff vehemently disagree with.

I think we've largely left our members alone over the years here, and let people express themselves as freely as possible. Where we haven't, it's mostly because members weren't up to the challenge and demonstrated they couldn't handle that responsibly (such as in the Political Asylum forum). It's a privately owned forum and we make it obvious and clear what we are looking for from members. Folks who flip us off and decide they will do whatever they want do so at their own risk.

I think some folks have forgotten what it's like on alternative sites.

 

[Henry]

Look, I dont think it’s ‘biblical’ either, but I also think if multiple higher-ups are jumping ship ahead of a story we are way past “wait and see” mode. Those guys knew it was true, which is why they are running for cover. Stories that just arent that big a fuss don’t generally have that sort of effect. I suspect there’s more to this story rather than less to it based on the team’s reaction, but that’s just a guess.

 

[Chris]

Why are the first two sentences of the last paragraph in there?

I could improve this organization’s messaging in under 30 minutes. It boggles my mind that they are so unskilled at such simple things.

 

[CounterTrey]

Oh I hear ya man, just one guy's perspective. Not knowing all the latest back room machinations but familiar with the past I was still a bit shocked when the hammer started dropping. Emotions are pretty raw right now and parties on all sides need to take a deep breath. A break isn't a bad thing either, life's too short. That said, your site bud, do what ya gotta do.

 

[Bulldog]

Everything with this organization has been ‘trying and difficult’ since you, Dan, purchased the team.

Why should anything change?

I can’t imagine any other owner keeping and siding with Bruce Allen for 10 years.

The most depressing point Dan is not the initial mistakes but the continual failure to learn from them.