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Henry

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I think you're selling things short Henry, and downplaying an experience that in itself is harassment. Trying to compare life experiences is no different than what Boone was fighting before by trying to say harassment is harassment and the level in which it happens, while varying, does not make one more acceptable than another. If the goal is to open eyes to an issue, all issues need to be respected. A lot of women have been subject to inappropriate behavior, and maybe El's experience isn't as common as those others, but the experience is still the experience... The biggest difference is that the majority of the time women are either intimidated enough, or scared enough, that it is not pursued, and in El's case, he happened to be in a more appropriate position to defend himself legally, as well as physically.
Fair enough.
 

Boone

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Boone, I get that it's not your thing and I can appreciate that. You're not wrong for feeling that way, but I don't think I should feel wrong for feeling the way I do either.
I love females. I love looking at females. I have the same 'appreciation' any red-blooded male has for the human form. I just think the *idea* of cheerleaders is juvenile and sets women up to be viewed as nothing but objects. As for the photos - El's photos got us blackballed on Google (which I view as ridiculous, but that's what happened). That's the primary reason I asked him to stop posting them, not because I'm occupying some moral high ground.
 

Boone

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I think you're selling things short Henry, and downplaying an experience that in itself is harassment. Trying to compare life experiences is no different than what Boone was fighting before by trying to say harassment is harassment and the level in which it happens, while varying, does not make one more acceptable than another. If the goal is to open eyes to an issue, all issues need to be respected. A lot of women have been subject to inappropriate behavior, and maybe El's experience isn't as common as those others, but the experience is still the experience... The biggest difference is that the majority of the time women are either intimidated enough, or scared enough, that it is not pursued, and in El's case, he happened to be in a more appropriate position to defend himself legally, as well as physically.
No one's downplaying El's experience - how did you arrive at that from Henry's response brother? He literally expressed empathy for him going through it. My question would be, what does one experience have to do with another. Why are we comparing the two? They're both reprehensible and should be addressed. I sincerely don't understand the relevance? We know it happens to men. We know it happens to women. We also, if we're being honest, know that it happens far more often to women. That isn't minimizing when it does happen to men, it's just a common sense fact.

I'll keep asking it - what does anyone here's sexual harassment experience have to do with the Redskins issues? Help me understand why that is relevant?

And I never said what you attributed to me above, or my words are being taken out of context. I said there's no such thing as 'acceptable harassment' or 'not so bad harassment'. That's not equivalent to your characterization that I don't recognize some abuses are more serious than others. Obviously, unwanted touching is worse than unwelcome flirting or sexual remarks. My point wasn't they are all equal. My point was that minimizing any form of sexual harassment because 'it could be worse' is wrong.
 

Bulldog

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Trying to judge the moral equivalency between illegal acts is fruitless.

As Boone said they are ALL serious and should be treated as such.

That’s why I had a problem with Malcolm Jenkins comments.

He pushed off DeSean Jackson’s comments as ‘wrong’ but didn’t want to spend any time discussing them because for him BLM is a superior cause.

I don’t view it that way.

Violence or prejudice against Hispanic immigrants, Jews, Asians, gays or women is just as important if you are talking about fostering a just society.
 

Boone

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I feel like at this point we all just need to focus on what we DO agree about - that what is being reported about the culture in the Redskins organization is serious and reprehensible. That seems like an awfully big piece of common ground, but we seem to be unable to get past the 10% we don't agree on. That would be a shame in the big picture. Personally, I've said about all I have to say on the subject.
 

Knightingale

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Phew, this is quite a thread to read through!

I hadn't commented in here really as yet, as I wanted to take a while to compose my thoughts on it all. It's sad to see that something so reprehensible to me at a core level has had such a profound effect on our little corner of the internet. That this has inspired such a difference of opinion in our little community.

Of all the things that have happened recently, it's perhaps this one that has angered me the most. The one that makes me wish that this team had changed their name years ago, to protect a legacy from my youth which over the past two decades has been tarnished so badly by controversy after controversy. It's too much now. It feels like the Redskins name has been irrevocably tarnished now. Roll on RedWolves or whatever we become. I find myself now WANTING that fresh start.

15 women coming forward is a huge issue. My immediate thoughts when I saw the report was 'is 15 just scratching the surface? How many didn't come forward?'

Sexual harrassment at work is awful. Yes, it happens to men and women, and it shouldn't happen to either sex. However it, inarguably, happens more to women in what is still predominantly a patriarchal society. This is even more prevalent in the NFL where (correct me if I'm wrong) there are no female owners. The NFL is a male dominated sport from top to bottom, kudos to any woman working in these organisations in any capacity for cracking the code and finding a way in. I imagine it's not easy. Once through the door, they should be able to conduct their business with all the same considerations as a male employee. It is their skills they were employed for, not their gender. A woman can be an executive as easily as a man can be a receptionist. If they have the knowledge and the skill to earn the job then they should be able to perform that job without any untoward interference.

Which brings me to Cheerleaders... correct me if I'm wrong (as I'm not American) but don't professional cheerleader teams that compete nationally have both Male and Female members? NFL Cheerleaders are undeniably simply about the sex appeal. If Cheerleading is to stay, why can't a team be progressive enough to take a lead from the professional teams and put a team together with both? I've seen some of those routines that the professional teams do, and they're amazing cherographed dances of gymnastic skill. Why not do that in the NFL? Anyway, I digress...

The other big issue I have here, is Snyders response to all this. It really feels like he's left Rivera totally in the lurch. For something like this, badly worded memos and statements aren't going to cut it. If there was EVER a time for him to step in front of a camera and make a personal declaration, now is that time. It infuriates me. If I was in his position, I don't think I couldn't do it. I'd HAVE to be there in Washington, I'd have to be taking personal charge of this mess. I would feel responsible. I get NONE of that from Snyder at all.

As I said earlier, I was resigned and okay with a name change. Now I kind of want it. I want Snyder out and I want a new owner in. I want change. I don't want my memories of the Redskins tarnished any more than they already have been.
I like the direction the on the field part of this organisation was taking. Now I want a change at the top to reflect it.

I want to root for a team I'm proud of.

I want that team to be the one that Rivera is restructuring. That Haskins is working hard to lead. That McLaurin is developing in. That has a defense that Chase Young will lead to strike fear into opposing teams.

But, at the moment I'm HATING on Snyder more than I ever have. The organisation is rotten at the core and he needs to accept responsibility and do something about it.
 

Bulldog

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Change in this case is positive.

Exiting Allen, Gruden, Santos, Michael and others to me leads to a chance for redemption.

But the caveat is Snyder himself. He is very impulsive and quick to judge which does not fit in with the career trajectories of coaches like Bill Walsh and Chuck Noll who took some years to establish their teams while ownership remained restrained and patient.

The recent news of scandalous and potentially illegal behavior at Redskins Park to me gives Rivera a good amount of space and time to work relatively freely.

Snyder recognizes I would think that all eyes are on him league-wide and he needs to maintain a low profile.
 

Knightingale

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Snyder is in an odd position that is arguably of his own creation.

You're right, Bulldog, he DOES need to keep a low profile. But, counter to that, I believe he needs to be seen taking an active stand against this with more than just hollow press statements.

Mark Cuban was right, Snyder needs to stand up in front of the press and take responsibility. He needs to visible as someone willing to lead this team out of this mess. He needs to make sure the right pieces are in place to follow through with an internal review. I'm at a point where I don't care if it's awkward or whatever, I just feel he needs to be seen to be taking responsibility. The whole Dan and Tanya thing... I figure he was going for a personal 'we're all a family' feeling to it, but instead it came off as a calculated misstep. False familiarity.

Just stand up and take it like a man Dan!

After that, if he wants to retreat behind the camera then so be it. Let Rivera handle things moving forward, he seems infinitely better at it.
 

SilentThreat

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No one's downplaying El's experience - how did you arrive at that from Henry's response brother? He literally expressed empathy for him going through it. My question would be, what does one experience have to do with another. Why are we comparing the two? They're both reprehensible and should be addressed. I sincerely don't understand the relevance? We know it happens to men. We know it happens to women. We also, if we're being honest, know that it happens far more often to women. That isn't minimizing when it does happen to men, it's just a common sense fact.

I'll keep asking it - what does anyone here's sexual harassment experience have to do with the Redskins issues? Help me understand why that is relevant?

And I never said what you attributed to me above, or my words are being taken out of context. I said there's no such thing as 'acceptable harassment' or 'not so bad harassment'. That's not equivalent to your characterization that I don't recognize some abuses are more serious than others. Obviously, unwanted touching is worse than unwelcome flirting or sexual remarks. My point wasn't they are all equal. My point was that minimizing any form of sexual harassment because 'it could be worse' is wrong.

It just read that way to me... my own interpretation. It's the exact thing you're talking about.... not to pile on or anything just clarifying. Henry said basically that El's experience doesn't give him the same life experience of a woman. To a degree, he's probably right, but I do think it allows El's insight into a situation being able to experience it from the other side.

I dont dispute that, but the whole point of this conversation has been that harassment is harassment is harassment. You mention unwanted touching which takes you beyond harassment and moves into assault depending the severity of the touching. I never said that you treated them the same, but more that whether it's severe harassment where someone feels threatened, or a comment or anecdote made in passing... if someone feels uncomfortable, it's all harassment. Sorry, i wasn't trying to speak for you, just feeling the overall conversation and trying to wrap my head around it. My point was the fact that El's experience was STILL harassment. It happened to be man on man, but it's still an uncomfortable situation. A lot of us have been put in situations at one point or another where we are uncomfortable... I think a lot of the sharing isn't to necessarily compare the two, but to more put into context that there is a level of empathy that can be shared... because while it may not be exactly the same, the feelings have been experienced.

This is a serious issue and a lot of us seem to be getting wrapped up in a lot of the side conversations, when at the end of the day most of us agree that what happened was unacceptable.
 

Chris

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Disclosure, the Michael Crichton novel and the movie starring Demi Moore and Michael Douglas, came out in 1994.

Fast forward 26 years and it doesn’t seem things have changed all that much.
 
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DudeRedskin

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Damn. The hits just keep on coming. One hell of an off-season my friends. Can't help but wonder WTF is next.
 

Special K

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Took a few days off to calm down and form a coherent thought. Figured it wouldn’t benefit anyone for me to just have a meltdown and scream “F All Men!” That is not the message I ever want to convey. I appreciate men and am surrounded by a lot of great men in my life who respect boundaries and respect women. Not just because it could be their mom or sister or daughter, but because it is the morally right thing to do: to honor and respect other humans. And I respect many of my male friends I’ve met in this forum, other fan forums and just as being a Redskins fan and sharing a passion for a storied football team. ❤

I don’t even know what I want really want to say or get across, but here goes. I guess why this story hurt so much is that I suppose I’m an optimist. I’ve been surrounded by strong women my whole life and have seen the gains women have made in our American society over the last several decades. I choose to look at life as an evolving process and always trying to make a step forward in the betterment of ourselves.

This story brought me back to harsh reality though, that in 2020 we are still dealing with this toxic mindset, and will be dealing with this for a long time to come. I don’t feel the need to go into my personal story here (that’s for my women’s support group 😊), but needless to say, this is unfortunately something females (and yes I know it’s not just females, I understand both genders can be harassed) have to deal with on a more often than not basis in our society and the workforce, especially females who are in leadership or power positions or fields of work that may typically be male dominated.

I’ve read multiple responses to this story saying it isn’t what is what “hyped up to be.” It wasn’t of “biblical” proportions. This makes me sad because this is the exact mindset that allows this behavior to continue in our society: “It’s not THAT bad.” “She was JUST told to wear heels.” “She was JUST asked if she was attracted to him.” Do you understand that is belittling and objectifying a human being? Would you like that to be done to you, or can you imagine it? Do you understand what constant stress does to the human body? When we are always on edge, always stressed, our cortisol levels are consistently increased? This type of behavior, when encountered in multiple settings, not just work, is degrading and kills self esteem. Can you imagine working your ass off to get a degree in a field you’re passionate about, but one that happens to be male-dominated and continually made to feel like you don’t live up to the men you work with? That the assets you bring to the team are not your intelligence or your responsibility or good judgment, but superficial, physical attributes? When your work is dwindled down to how your ass looks in a skirt and no matter what you do, you are never going to be treated with the same respect as your male counterparts? It’s extremely hurtful, impacts your perception of life and how you interact with the men in your life, at least it does for me and girlfriends I talk about these experiences with.

Anyway, this isn’t meant to be a pity me post. But moreso a post to maybe give a little perspective to the guys who think this isn’t such a big deal. This is a big deal. And by minimizing it, by saying, like, well, it’s not like they were sexually assaulted, well let me tell you: living under constant, dehumanizing stress can have major psychological impacts that affect a person and how they function in life. It can lead to health, behavioral, and addiction and self harm issues. So, if the only way you can find empathy is to think of your daughter, sister or mother, so be it. But I would encourage those of you who don’t think this is a big deal to take another look. Maybe talk to a female who has faced sexual harassment (or even sexual assault) and try to think about how that has impacted their life.

All in all, I don’t think the guys minimizing this story are bad guys. I just think maybe widening your perspective to other people’s feelings outside your own may change the way you see things and perhaps interact with the females in your life. 🤷‍♀️
 

MikefromOH

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The weird and very unfortunate thing about people is they have to put things to a degree they can handle it. People do it all the time and it is weird. They sensationalize it, they minimize it, they do all of these weird things except just deal with the facts at hand.

Look at any time someone is killed by a cop. You have a group that screams "all cops suck" and others that scream "well, what did he do?" instead of just looking at the facts in front of them.

same thing here. there is no "its not that bad". There is sexual harassment, and there is not sexual harassment. the rest is just humans trying to fit it in to a jar they can understand and deal with.
 

Rymanofthenorth

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a few things after doing the same thing and taking a few days.

1- I believe that when it comes to harassent there are levels, not all harassment is the same even if it is all wrong and all inappropriate and I stand by that assertion. not to minimise it but to prevent certain things from being minimised.

2- I don't talk about it because frankly this is not the oppression olympics but I once had a supervisor I was not attracted to ask me out on several occasions, make inappropriate comments to me and about me at work and while it made me uncomfortable, I never considered it to be on par with someone being overtly pressured to have sex or actually assaulted. Yes I am aware that being a man and a very large one, makes my experience different, I have close female friends and relatives who have been sexually assaulted and I worked at a womens shelter for 2 years so I am sort of overly sensitive about people marginalising things through invalid comparisons, but my intention was never to belittle anyone.

3- after thinking about it, I believe we were manipulated by someone who is brilliant at manipulating people. By "prereleasing" rumours, many of which were so bombastic and hyperbolic, they set unrealistic expectations, got people speculating and because the rumours were so far beyond the facts that were released, a lot of us were talking about the rumours instead of the facts which were pretty damning on their own. Case in point is that when I read the comments, I was iterally like " wait a second, I was expecting something horrific that would be a reason to get rid of snyder immediately, something on par with the 90's cowpies scandals that Jones somehow escaped culpability for. The simple truth is that 15 cases of sexual harassment that were poorly dealt with, combined with the toxic culture of the Redskins FO should have been enough by itself to generate a conversation. Imagine if a certain owner was this adept at football matters, we would not have been shitty for 20 years.
 

MikefromOH

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OK - here is a question for you then, Ryan.

Who decides what "level" it is? What is a 1 to you obviously is a lot more to those effected by this. So, do you get to tell the person who is traumatized how traumatized they get to be?
 

Bulldog

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Well, obviously touching and groping are worse than a lewd comment but they are all against corporate policy and are at the least civil torts if not outright criminal acts of assault and battery.

Instead of parsing out the differences why not just recognize they all wrong and let’s move on to the FIX.

And finally admitting responsibility.
 

SilentThreat

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Well, obviously touching and groping are worse than a lewd comment but they are all against corporate policy and are at the least civil torts if not outright criminal acts of assault and battery.

Instead of parsing out the differences why not just recognize they all wrong and let’s move on to the FIX.

And finally admitting responsibility.

that's not harassment... it's assault.
 

MikefromOH

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Well, obviously touching and groping are worse than a lewd comment but they are all against corporate policy and are at the least civil torts if not outright criminal acts of assault and battery.

Instead of parsing out the differences why not just recognize they all wrong and let’s move on to the FIX.

And finally admitting responsibility.
that was kind of my point. I was just going to let him answer it.
 

Oldguyfromchester

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Half of the couple's in this country met at work. I know I did. In our current climate, is asking somebody out harassment? Just wondering.
 

Boone

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I don’t think so, but if the answer is ‘no’ I would think that needs to be the end of it.
 

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