The All Things Terry Thread

[Riggo44]

Is it just me or is this another sign of adults in the room? This feels very much like "come into camp, we'll get the deal done, you can have an 'injury' until then."

 

[prodigy]

It's hard to find a true #1 receiver in trade or draft, but if the team is without Terry there are going to be opportunities to sign or trade for veteran guys that can come in and help as secondary targets for Jayden in this offense.

The problem with speed receivers is once they hit 30/31 they start to slow down and usually don't finish out their contracts if they are signed long-term.

You can take guys like Mike Evans in Tampa or Anquan Boldin back in the day and sign them to contracts after 30 and see them continue to be highly productive because their game is centered around excellence of route running, height/strength, and ability to win balls in the air.

Terry is listed at 6'0 so he is probably closer to 5'11 in real terms. The question does come up what effectiveness he has 2 years from now at 32 and still under contract?

The one speed guy I remember from my youth, Cliff Branch, was able to maintain that 4.2 speed and scare defenses into his mid to late 30's.

But Branch like Darrell Green is a Hall of Fame player with a unique skill set that didn't diminish over time.

I think it's a gross simplification to say Terry is just a speed guy. that's what DK or Hollywood Brown are. anquan was thicker, but not by that much and only an inch taller.

 

[prodigy]

Fun to observe. Thanks, guys!

View attachment 11985

maybe even a little some of this at some point

 

[prodigy]

Wow, i did not expect the amount of villainy Terry is catching on this board..

I think some are just taking things way too personally. this is nowhere near the hold out fiascos we've seen in the history of this team, much less the history of the league to be generating the angst it is.

 

[Simeon]

That's all speculation. I've seen a handful of 'reports' but in reality we don't know what the sticking point really is. My personal speculation is that the real sticking point is the guaranteed money or length of the term, and not necessarily the AAV. That's just window dressing, cash and guarantees is what actually matters. In addition to that, the market dictates his value, and if the market has inflated to $40M per year for the 'best' in the league, a top 15 wr can easily begin to justify making 80% of that value. That's negotiating 101.

It's also not really fair to be judging vs AJ brown as his contract was signed last offseason, the market has changed since then. Tee Higgins is also a no. 2 across from Ja'Marr Chase. It's wild speculation to try and figure out his actual value so comparing a clear cut, No. 1, focal point of the offense to the no. 2 WR is not really going to hold any water in a negotiation. On top of that Higgins has been playing with an MVP candidate for his entire NFL career.


Beyond all of that, I don't understand why anyone is holding it against Terry to try and maximize his final 'real' contract opportunity. This is it for him. He likely gets a couple deals after this one but this is the last one where he likely has any real leverage. To this point he's done nothing but put positive deposits in the bank for the team. He's been the ultimate team player... why is it wrong that he utilizes what little ability he has?

Also, this isn't a distraction on day 3 of camp any more than it was a distraction that Jayden was hanging out with JuJu Watkins at the USC game and then again at her birthday party. The other players in the locker room understand what's going on and they know the drill. I will freely admit that the tone can change as we approach actual game situations, but it's still very early in the process imho.

Agree with this. Nice summary. I do think he is a better player than some others here and certainly a great fit for this team. I also don’t blame him for holding out for the best deal possible as long as possible. That doesn’t mean Peters should give him what he wants, that’s not in the best interests of the team and the team has most of the cards.

I think a lot of the animosity here is more about his attitude, aka he came across as a bit of a diva after that ill advised press conference where he felt “disrespected “, etc. To me that was irritating but I think he is a smart man and prefer to view that as a one-off negotiating tactic for now. I will get actually pissed if he holds out into the season.

 

[Califan007]

…the market dictates his value, and if the market has inflated to $40M per year for the 'best' in the league, a top 15 wr can easily begin to justify making 80% of that value. That's negotiating 101.

No, I’m pretty sure fan discontent dictates a player’s value lol…Peters was probably ready to offer him over $30M/yr until he read this board!

 

[Primus Porcus]

Is it standard practice to have an agent at training camp?

 

[Califan007]

Not sure if this was mentioned, not wading through post after post of “Trade Terry, he’s barely a top 20 WR anyway and Luke McCaffrey can easily give us the same production” comments to find out lol…but now that Terry has reported, he can’t leave the team again in any kind of holdout because the team can claim him as being retired. Or something like that.

 

[Califan007]

Is it standard practice to have an agent at training camp?

When a deal still needs to be negotiated, yep. Not uncommon at all in that situation.

I think there are limits, though, to what they can do or how much/how often they can attend.

 

[Primus Porcus]

When a deal still needs to be negotiated, yep. Not uncommon at all in that situation.

I think there are limits, though, to what they can do or how much/how often they can attend.

Yeah it was kind of tongue in cheek...

If his agent is IN THE BUILDING that further bodes well for negotiations.... unless of course they don't actually sit down and talk. Hard to believe he would be there unless a deal was ultimately the goal.

 

[WCommandersfan25]

I think that means Terry blinked first. Usually these guys showing to camp but holding in is a step to a deal, it’s an extension of trust to some degree that both parties are operating in good faith and now get some face time and a reduction in the drama swirling

Usually when things are going badly, guys leave entirely (see Trey Hendrickson). This is an improvement imo. I would expect Terry to speak more positively next time a mic is in his face

It may be an improvement. It could be that the loss of money is getting to him. Therefore he's attempting to create a favorable image by showing up at camp but has full intentions of continuing to hold in to not be fined. Agree with the notion that Peters won't be swayed. This is a business about a team not 1 player. Peters will recognize this and not let emotions dictate. If he expects elite wr money, he won't be signed this year. No way Peters gives in on this.

 

[Califan007]

Interesting article with some insider general perspectives…some tidbits:

Coach perspectives -

"The holdouts are a little different than injuries," Gruden said. "You feel like you can control the holdout, just pay the guy. S--- we need him. I understand there's a salary cap and all that, but the one thing you want to do is make sure you take care of the guys that are your best players. It's just hard to replace guys that are top of the food chain. Receivers that put points on the board and left tackles to protect the quarterback's blind side and quarterbacks and pass rushers, those are ones you got to try to keep."

Adding to any coach's dilemma in these situations, Gruden said a coach can't interfere in the contract proceedings, unless they also serve as a general manager. Before Williams' decision to hold out, Gruden had often let his star know how wanted and appreciated he was by him and his staff. During the holdout, the coach avoided all contact.

"That's where you have to be careful as a coach," Gruden said. "You can't pit the player against the organization and take the player's side. I'm just going to stay in my lane and coach the football team. And that's kind of what I did. That's why I stayed away from texting and calling, 'Hey man, I love you. I want you to come here, man, these guys are a--holes. They won't pay.' Then all of a sudden that gets back to you, so now you have division."

(Me: I thought I had heard that Quinn kept in contact with Terry, but perhaps that was not officially during the holdout)


Agent’s perspective:

“(Agent Vince Taylor) said he'll talk to or meet with a handful of people in the player's "circle of trust." He'll lay out the possible scenarios -- if it takes all summer; if it lasts into the season. With the player, he'll lay out what to expect -- like how much the player stands to be fined -- while also making sure the player is maintaining his conditioning.

"You're an agent, you're a counselor, you're a therapist, you're a police officer, sometimes security guard, trying to keep the guy from going on a rant on social media," longtime agent Damarius Bilbo said about navigating a holdout. "I mean, you've got to wear all those hats. The No. 1 thing is emotion."

"For a guy to put his heart, soul and everything into his business, how do you tell a guy not to be emotional?" Bilbo said. "But when people are offering their opinion by way of social media, by way of podcasts and stuff, these players listen and it takes them. You never know what that trigger is going to be.“


GM perspective:

"You took so many slings and arrows publicly," said (GM Bill) Polian…”Guys (other GMs) will call up and say, 'Hey, I really empathize with you. This is terrible.' Other people will offer advice: 'Hey, don't cave on this one. This is really important.' On occasion, [NFL] management council will step in.

"I made those calls to guys that were in predicaments, too, to try and just provide a little positive reinforcement."

Polian dealt with two holdouts as the GM in Carolina from 1995 to 1997: rookie running back Tim Biakabutuka and veteran edge rusher Kevin Greene. Both were difficult.

In 1996, Greene signed a two-year deal with Carolina and, that season, was named first-team All-Pro after leading the league with 14.5 sacks. But he and his agents felt he had outplayed his two-year, $2 million contract. So, he held out.

Given Greene's importance to a team that, in Year 2 of its existence, came one win from reaching the Super Bowl, Polian said his job was to keep coach Dom Capers informed of the proceedings on a weekly basis. When it became clear the matter was far from being resolved, he held a meeting with the personnel department and Capers.

"Start looking for a replacement," he told the group. "This could go south."


Player perspective:

In 2014, tight end Vernon Davis skipped San Francisco's mandatory minicamp while seeking an extension with two years left on his deal. That experience taught him a lesson: Missing time stinks. He received daily updates from his agent Todd France but didn't want to hold out.

"It was frustrating. I was antsy," Davis said. "I felt like I needed to smoke a cigarette sometimes. I didn't do that, but I felt like I wanted to. ... And it was just one of those things that just because you feel like you're missing something, you feel like you're behind."

'It's a toothache': Untold stories of NFL camp holdouts from players, agents, teams

Holdouts can be brutal. Here are some notable stories from each side of the bargaining table.

www.espn.com

 

[skinsinparadise]

Class act, Terry with the fans, coming out to sign autographs today.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

If you look at the numbers Terry put up LAST year with Jayden Daniels (not Sam Howell or Taylor Heinicke) he had 82 catches for 1096 and 13 touchdowns.

The numbers and catches were way below the numbers that Chase and Lamb put up during their contract years.

Lamb had 135 catches for 1,750 yards and 12 touchdowns.

Last year with a backup quarterback in Cooper Rush throwing him the ball on a sub .500 team, Lamb still managed over 100 catches and 1200 yards.

I do think that somewhere in here you do have to factor in that the Vikings, Bengals and even Cowboys all were entirely throw first teams and depended entirely on their WRs for the majority of their offense.

Our offense was different, which is why I think Context matters. Between JD5 running and traditional runs, we were a MUCH more balanced offense, and therefore there were fewer opportunities.

Our 525 passing attempts was 25th most in the NFL. Ironically, the Eagles were last.

Browns, Bengals, Cowboys were numbers 1, 2 and 3. The Bengals threw the ball 652 times.

And Burrow is good. And Chase is REALLY good. with the added opportunities, that's why his numbers are so skewed positive.

If you took McLaurin and exchanged him with Chase, I don't think McClaurin would have exactly the same productivity, that would be an insult to how good Chase is. But he'd be close.

So I think context and situation matters.

FWIW, the Cowboys threw the ball 112 more times than we did. 637 vs. 525. That is significant.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

Beyond all of that, I don't understand why anyone is holding it against Terry to try and maximize his final 'real' contract opportunity. This is it for him. He likely gets a couple deals after this one but this is the last one where he likely has any real leverage. To this point he's done nothing but put positive deposits in the bank for the team. He's been the ultimate team player... why is it wrong that he utilizes what little ability he has?

Also, this isn't a distraction on day 3 of camp any more than it was a distraction that Jayden was hanging out with JuJu Watkins at the USC game and then again at her birthday party. The other players in the locker room understand what's going on and they know the drill. I will freely admit that the tone can change as we approach actual game situations, but it's still very early in the process imho.

I'm certainly not holding it against him to try and get the best deal he can.

However, I think he and his agent overplayed their hand. I think they thought he could push hard on the team, the fans would flock to his defense, and the team would capitulate to give him whatever he wants.

That's clearly not happening, and he might have burned through a little good will because of it.

However, he has a Mount Everest size of goodwill built up, so not sure it matters that much.

 

[skinsinparadise]

I love Terry, but I think Ceedee Lamb is at least half a peg better WR. And Chase is in his own orbit. And that's before delving into their age differences.

To me Terry is in that St. Brown, D. Smith, Metcalf, T, Higgins, M. Evans range of receivers. Somewhere between 8 and 12.

The more I read and listen about the contract, i think the impasse is simple.

Terry's agent convincing Terry that's he's in that Ceedee Lamb, AJ Brown, class. AND age doesnt matter. So the negotiation is stuck on those two points.

And i blame it on the agent not Terry. As Logan Paulsen said recently (not in the context of this negotiation) its the agent's job to be real with the player and settle them down. Feels like this agent is doing the opposite and stirring Terry's emotions up.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

So…about 3 Lamborginis?

Have you priced a Lamborghini recently? Maybe 1.5 used ones, or one new one. Inflation man.

Search All Inventory

Search All Inventory

www.lamborghiniwashington.com

 

[Califan007]

I do think that somewhere in here you do have to factor in that the Vikings, Bengals and even Cowboys all were entirely throw first teams and depended entirely on their WRs for the majority of their offense.

Our offense was different, which is why I think Context matters. Between JD5 running and traditional runs, we were a MUCH more balanced offense, and therefore there were fewer opportunities.

Our 525 passing attempts was 25th most in the NFL. Ironically, the Eagles were last.

Browns, Bengals, Cowboys were numbers 1, 2 and 3. The Bengals threw the ball 652 times.

And Burrow is good. And Chase is REALLY good. with the added opportunities, that's why his numbers are so skewed positive.

If you took McLaurin and exchanged him with Chase, I don't think McClaurin would have exactly the same productivity, that would be an insult to how good Chase is. But he'd be close.

So I think context and situation matters.

FWIW, the Cowboys threw the ball 112 more times than we did. 637 vs. 525. That is significant.

To add to what you pointed out: Over the last three seasons, Lamb has been targeted 120 times more than Terry…that’s like Lamb playing an entire extra season.

It’s to the point that I might go see what Lamb’s stats were after the first 117 targets during his “monster season” and compare them to Terry’s stats from his 117 targets last season.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

To add to what you pointed out: Over the last three seasons, Lamb has been targeted 120 times more than Terry…that’s like Lamb playing an entire extra season.

It’s to the point that I might go see what Lamb’s stats were after the first 117 targets during his “monster season” and compare them to Terry’s stats from his 117 targets last season.

I do think there are 2 things at play:

1. Lamb is better than Terry, and has the ability to get open more easily against better DBs, even with double coverage.
2. The entire Cowboys offense runs through Lamb. That's the focus. They run the ball occasionally, and they throw to other folks, but it's a pass first offense intended to use Lamb as the primary weapon, and work from there. Which means there are just more opportunities based on philosophy.

And PS: Lamb and the WRs make Dak better, and have made Dak A LOT of money and also have made Jerrah make some REALLY BAD contractual decisions for Dak.

Again, if you substituted McLaurin for Lamb, Terry's numbers would be close. Because Terry is really good. But they wouldn't be as good because he's not as good as Lamb.

And to Hail Raiser's points, up until last season Jay Freaking Gruden was the best OC Terry had, and only for his rookie season for 5 games until he was fired for cause because he was a stupid dumb ass. If you want to say KOC was better for the remainder of the 2019 season than Jay, fine, but really that was Ol' Man Callahan's "Run on first, Run on second, Run on third, and then maybe run some more" stupidity of an offense. All of 2019 sucked.

Then came Ron and Baby Turner, who wasn't very good, bad QBs (Haskins (RIP), [REDACTED], Smith, etc. etc. etc.), then EB who was apparently a fraud, before we got to Kliff and JD5.

We wasted Terry's potential borderline HOF potential because Dan was a bigger stupid dumb ass than Jay. But we are where we are.

 

[skinsinparadise]

Terry's niche isn't seperation. Hence he's not as much a feed him the ball dude like some elite WRs.

Eagles for example when they put Q. Mitchell on Terry, shut Terry down for a good part of 2 of the three matchups.

A good CB on top of their game, can have some good games against Terry and arguably more so than they could against a Lamb, Chase, etc.

I don't think for examples coaches and GMs ranking Terry behind these WRs is because its lost on them that some of these WRs ahead of them are targeted more -- I think the idea they are targeted more because they are open more.