Taylor Heinicke Discussion

[Theismann To HOF]

Heinicke, for all intents and purposes, was a rookie with more playbook study time, but not live action time.

Some QBs are ready year one or two. Others take three or four seasons(Tua, Josh Allen).

Heinicke being short, does suffer from that physical limitation in that he cannot see some things. But similar to Russell Wilson, he's got some wheels to extend plays and put strain on opposing coverages. He did make some "gamer" throws last season, which is something we really haven't seen a lot of, not even from the likes of Cousins.

And the playoff performance obviously won the respect of the room, which is a key intangible.

Would I pick Heinicke over a Joe Burrow or from what I have seen from Kenny Pickett? Nope. They got more going for them. But he's definitely above the levels of Teddy Bridgewater or Mitchell Trubisky.

He is also above the level of Carson Wentz. Obviously.

And all the people on here who thought Wentz was an upgrade over Heinicke now have egg on their face.

 

[Neophyte]

Wentz and Heinicke facts that may interest only me:

Wents lead the league in fumbles in 2016 w/ 14 (tied with Carson Palmer)
Wentz has 72 career fumbles in 90 games - 0.8 per game
Wentz has 231 career sacks in 90 games - 2.57 per game
Wentz has 3218 career pass attempts in 90 games - 35.7 per game
Wentz averages 1 fumble per every 44.7 pass attempts
Wentz averages 1 sack every 13.9 pass attempts
Wentz has 150 career TDs - 1.67 per game
Wentz has 63 career INTs - 0.7 per game or 1 every 51 pass attempts
Wentz has a career TD to INT ratio of around 2.3 to 1

Heinicke has never led the league in the fumbles
Heinicke has 8 career fumbles in 24 games - 0.33 per game
Heinicke has 42 career sacks in 24 games - 1.75 per game
Heinicke has 571 career pass attempts in 24 games - 23.8 per game
Heinicke averages 1 fumble per every 71.3 pass attempts
Heinicke averages 1 sack every 13.6 pass attempts
Heinicke has 22 career TDs - 0.92 per game
Heinicke has 18 career INTs - 1.3 per game or 1 every 31 pass attempts
Heinicke has a career TD to INT ratio of around 1.15 to 1

 

[Henry]

Nick Foles was exactly 29 years old too, when he replaced Wentz, and won a Super Bowl over Tom Brady.
Ironically, Heinicke nearly beat Brady in a playoff game too, in only his 2nd career start

And Nick Foles started a grand total of 12 games over the next four years, winning three of them. He was out of the league by 33.

Foles was a career backup. He lasted 11 seasons because he was really good at it. Heinicke could absolutely be another Nick Foles.

 

[Lovin Cousins]

And Nick Foles started a grand total of 12 games over the next four years, winning three of them. He was out of the league by 33.

Foles was a career backup. He lasted 11 seasons because he was really good at it. Heinicke could absolutely be another Nick Foles.

The point is, 29 is not too old to become a starting QB.
Especially in a day when QB's are playing to 40 an beyond.
And when teams are trading for startlng QB's who are in their mid-thirties.
Foles hoisting a Lombardi AND a Super Bowl MVP
There are tons of things to support it.
If a 29 year old QB gets on track, there's a good chance, he still has a decent amount of years ahead of him.
QB is different than positions like RB or CB when it comes to age-related performance.

There is a stigma that the only way to success with a QB, is to "draft a QB of the future" when he's only 21 or 22 years old, then let him learn a year or 2, then take over the reigns. But that just isn't the reality in the NFL. Carson Wentz is 29 too, so he would be disqualified from taking over the team as well, by that standard.
So, should Wentz be exempt from that "rule" but Heinicke isn't ?

 

[Bulldog]

Yes, IF the Commanders had the offensive line and defense the Eagles had in 2017.

Do you see 3 pro bowlers on the offensive line? Do you see a in the prime Fletcher Cox patrolling the defense?

Foles didn't win those playoff games by himself. To me Foles was a bit of a reincarnation of Jeff Hostetler.

The Giants lost Phil Simms and Hostetler was able to ride a talented team to a Super Bowl by making the key plays and avoiding turnovers.

He wasn't able to come back and repeat that when he moved on to other teams with lesser talent. Neither did Foles.

 

[Boone]

He is also above the level of Carson Wentz. Obviously.

And all the people on here who thought Wentz was an upgrade over Heinicke now have egg on their face.

My challenge to you? Try and make a point without being a prick. I know you can do it.

 

[Chris]

My challenge to you? Try and make a point without being a prick. I know you can do it.

At some point, any member here with more than 10 brain cells should be able to put 2 and 2 together and understand what the REAL problem is. 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[Lovin Cousins]

The problem is we have multiple Real problems.
We tend to single them out, but we need to address them all

 

[Henry]

The point is, 29 is not too old to become a starting QB.

Then don't use Foles as an example. He came in as a backup and did what backups are supposed to do. Then he went back to being a backup.

If you want to suggest that Heinicke could step in and play great and win some games for whatever team he's on, I totally agree that he could. Just like Foles did.

That's not the same as being a long-term starter.

Especially in a day when QB's are playing to 40 an beyond.
And when teams are trading for startlng QB's who are in their mid-thirties.
Foles hoisting a Lombardi AND a Super Bowl MVP
There are tons of things to support it.
If a 29 year old QB gets on track, there's a good chance, he still has a decent amount of years ahead of him.
QB is different than positions like RB or CB when it comes to age-related performance.

There is a stigma that the only way to success with a QB, is to "draft a QB of the future" when he's only 21 or 22 years old, then let him learn a year or 2, then take over the reigns. But that just isn't the reality in the NFL. Carson Wentz is 29 too, so he would be disqualified from taking over the team as well, by that standard.
So, should Wentz be exempt from that "rule" but Heinicke isn't ?

Again, Wentz is not a great example to use. Do you think Wentz is going to get significantly better into his 30s? If so, let's keep Wentz, because his physical tools are superior. Let's let him get on track, right?

You can have success trading for a PROVEN older QB.

I kinda hate that strategy, because it's hit-and-miss. That's been done that here with Brunell, McNabb, Smith and now Wentz. The team's success rate bringing in an older guy and building a team around him is somewhere around 0 percent. But teams have done it. But even then those guys generally have years of experience under their belts. You don't start building a team around a guy who might be ready to take off when he's 33 or 34. Especially a guy with durability and size issues who relies on mobility with a weak arm.

Hitting on the draft is the best way to go, because then you have decades and a potential dynasty. Rent-a-QBs can give you a few years, but usually those guys are good for 3-5 years. The Drew Breeses of the world are few and far between. You may think Heinicke is the next Drew Brees. I don't happen to think that. It would be cool if he was, though.

 

[Boone]

I don’t disagree Henry, but I will point out that McNabb and Brunell were coming in as 11 season vets and Alex Smith as a 14 year vet. Wentz may not be good but he at 29 is in the prime of his playing career from an age perspective. Wentz came in as a 6 year vet and if he could play well could be a starter for a long time. Not the same scenario as the guys you mentioned.

 

[Henry]

I don’t disagree Henry, but I will point out that McNabb and Brunell were coming in as 11 season vets and Alex Smith as a 14 year vet. Wentz may not be good but he at 29 is in the prime of his playing career from an age perspective. Wentz came in as a 6 year vet and if he could play well could be a starter for a long time. Not the same scenario as the guys you mentioned.

Actually, I've been giving it some thought and the closest (positive) comparison I could think of was Trent Green. Trent was a third string afterthought until he was thrust into the starting role at about the same age as Heinicke, and he went on to have a pretty good five-years as a starter for the Chiefs. I think that would be a top-end outcome of just giving Heinicke the starting spot. While I don't think it's likely, it's definitely possible he could do something like that. I just think his arm is too much of a liability. It's very likely not going to get stronger from here on out.

 

[Neophyte]

Not a bad comparison. Trent's career might have gone longer too without the heavy injury.

Trent had a better arm though. We should have kept him. Yet another screwup by this club.

 

[SkinsOrlando]

We had several backups who had decent careers late with over teams, Humphries, Gannon, they could throw past 30 yards though.

 

[Theismann To HOF]

We had several backups who had decent careers late with over teams, Humphries, Gannon, they could throw past 30 yards though.

Yeah, so can Heinicke. Like that scramble and beautiful 50 yard bomb against Dallas last year.

Something Wentz couldn't do in a million years.

 

[Neophyte]

One throw is not a pattern and that is also the game Heinicke had a tipped ball INT and a strip sack fumble, both returned for TDs.

Not a game he will be referencing on his CV anytime soon, I think.

 

[DieselPwr44]

Would be completely remissed if I didn't mention the time Taylor took out a knife and cut a loaf of bread into pieces and invented something called a sandwich. Or having the idea to combine peanut butter and jelly!

Geez Louise....

 

[Theismann To HOF]

One throw is not a pattern and that is also the game Heinicke had a tipped ball INT and a strip sack fumble, both returned for TDs.

Not a game he will be referencing on his CV anytime soon, I think.

The dude said that Heinicke can't throw the ball more than 30 yards. An obvious exaggeration.

Since he is shamelessly exaggerating, I'm going to point out to him that he was 100% wrong about Wentz being better than Heinicke and now he just has to accept that he was 100% wrong.

 

[Neophyte]

Look man, Heinicke is a better streetballer than Wentz and he doesn't fumble as much. Givens, okay?

But his TD to INT ratio is just sad compared to Wentz and that should tell you everything about his vision and arm strength.

That doesn't mean I think Wentz is the end-all, be-all of the QB either. I am on record as not being a fan back in March (I was sadly on the Tribisky wagon, which is likely even worse than Wentz but what can you do?).

I also would have been just fine sticking with Heinicke (which I now think might have been the coach's preference too) and strengthening the rest of the team. Didn't happen.

 

[Theismann To HOF]

Look man, Heinicke is a better streetballer than Wentz and he doesn't fumble as much. Givens, okay?

But his TD to INT ratio is just sad compared to Wentz and that should tell you everything about his vision and arm strength.

That doesn't mean I think Wentz is the end-all, be-all of the QB either. I am on record as not being a fan back in March (I was sadly on the Tribisky wagon, which is likely even worse than Wentz but what can you do?).

I also would have been just fine sticking with Heinicke (which I now think might have been the coach's preference too) and strengthening the rest of the team. Didn't happen.

It doesn't tell me diddly squat. Heinicke only has one season as a starter under his belt, so it's way too early to write him off. No legit QB plays their best football in their first year as a starter. IT DOES NOT HAPPEN. Playing time matters. In fact, it matters a lot.

Even Boone explained that to you. Don't listen to me, listen to him.

Go look at Peyton Manning's rookie stats. Go look at Troy Aikman's rookie stats. And they were both a lot better than Wentz, in case you weren't tracking.

 

[Boone]

Explain how Heinicke having one season means we can't judge his ceiling, while simultaneously arguing Howell will never amount to anything?

And good luck.