Shanahan Needs To Stand Now On Own Two Feet

[Oldfan]

...and until this thread, I thought most Skins fans could have agreed that the main reason we don't have this core is Vinny. We you expecting a magic wand scenario, where Shanahan was able to undue a decade of poor personnel decisions in two years? Acknowledging his first year was a mistake, Shanahan seems to have righted the course. But going from the Three Stooges FO model Vinny ran to a professional football front office takes some time.

And you have never answerred me this: if we ditch Moss, Fletcher, Atogwe and anyone else over the age of 29, are we filling their slots with... what, exactly? UDFAs?

You are asking me to repeat points already argued in this thread.

You also ask me to reply to a silly argument I never made (magic wand).

The roster slots now taken up with older vets would be used to audition the same kind of young talent, whether UDFAs or whatever, that we have been auditioning all along. There would just be more of them.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

An argument against not having veteran leadership is the Bucs right now. A year ago they were a promising young team with a fireball head coach destined for greatness. This year, reports are that Morris has lost the team, and they play like they've given up. That's the risk you run when the average age of your roster is around 24-26. The only real veteran with playoff experience on that roster is Barber, but he's more of the quiet leader type.

Oh yeah I almost forgot - the shining examples of veteran leadership Kellen Winslow Jr. and Albert Haynesworth are also on the roster...

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Marc Bulger was taken in the same sixth round in 2000 by the Saints. If the Saints had taken Brady, and Brady had taken Bulger's path, his skinny body would have been punished and he would be physically unable to perform now.

Had the Patriots drafted Bulger, you'd be saying that Bellichik would be a footnote if he hadn't hit on Bulger in the 2000 sixth round.

Well, there's a first time for everything, I suppose. And here is the first time Marc Bulger has ever been compared to Tom Brady...

 

[Oldfan]

Well, there's a first time for everything, I suppose. And here is the first time Marc Bulger has ever been compared to Tom Brady...

Imagine that you are a scout looking at their tangibles:

Bulger: quicker release, more accurate on short to medium throws

Brady: stronger arm, better deep thrower

Both have pocket mobility, neither throws well on the run

Both can run an offense

Brady's edge in the minds of most fans originates with the hype that falls to the QB of successful organizations.

 

[Goaldeje]

But... you just got done saying that the Patriots haven't been successful, and the model we should look toward is GB.

And if you are, for a minute, saying that Marc Bulger would have been just as successful as Tom Brady in the Patriots organization... well, I think I have heard all I need to hear.

 

[Oldfan]

An argument against not having veteran leadership is the Bucs right now. A year ago they were a promising young team with a fireball head coach destined for greatness. This year, reports are that Morris has lost the team, and they play like they've given up. That's the risk you run when the average age of your roster is around 24-26. The only real veteran with playoff experience on that roster is Barber, but he's more of the quiet leader type.

Oh yeah I almost forgot - the shining examples of veteran leadership Kellen Winslow Jr. and Albert Haynesworth are also on the roster...

Of the 9,000 explanations that might account for the Bucs downturn, you pinpointed the lack of veteran leadership as the cause?

Can you explain why the lack of veteran leadership didn't hurt them last year, but crucified them this year?

 

[DieselPwr44]

Can you explain why the lack of veteran leadership didn't hurt them last year, but crucified them this year?

Maybe because last year they had seven veteran (over 29)guys on the team and pared that group down to three when the season started?

There's something to be said for dependable vets that are consistently in the right place at the right time on the field to show the younger guys how to play the game at this level.

Do you think Art Monk is full of crap when he credited the Over the Hill Gang for showing him how to be a pro and realize his potential in this league?

 

[Oldfan]

But... you just got done saying that the Patriots haven't been successful, and the model we should look toward is GB.

You really need to pay closer attention to the points others make. I didn't say the Patriots haven't been successful. I said that green Bay is probably a better model of building a roster.

And if you are, for a minute, saying that Marc Bulger would have been just as successful as Tom Brady in the Patriots organization... well, I think I have heard all I need to hear.

Yes, well one should always keep the mind closed and not allow radical thoughts to enter. Don't you think?

 

[Lanky Livingston]

You really need to pay closer attention to the points others make. I didn't say the Patriots haven't been successful. I said that green Bay is probably a better model of building a roster.

You mean, the Green Bay Packers led by 36 year-old Donald Driver, 35 year-old Charles Woodson, and 35 year-old Chad Clifton? And who's defense last year was anchored by key contributions from 32 year-old Ryan Pickett and Howard Green?

THOSE Green Bay Packers?

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Imagine that you are a scout looking at their tangibles:

Bulger: quicker release, more accurate on short to medium throws

Brady: stronger arm, better deep thrower

Both have pocket mobility, neither throws well on the run

Both can run an offense

Brady's edge in the minds of most fans originates with the hype that falls to the QB of successful organizations.

What Goaldie said - if you're implying Bulger would have had the same success Brady had in New England...

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Maybe because last year they had seven veteran (over 29)guys on the team and pared that group down to three when the season started?

There's something to be said for dependable vets that are consistently in the right place at the right time on the field to show the younger guys how to play the game at this level.

Do you think Art Monk is full of crap when he credited the Over the Hill Gang for showing him how to be a pro and realize his potential in this league?

Well said.

 

[Oldfan]

Maybe because last year they had seven veteran (over 29)guys on the team and pared that group down to three when the season started.

Those four old guys were hell-on-wheels as leaders of the football team. That's your theory? Who were they?

There's something to be said for dependable vets that are consistently in the right place at the right time on the field to show the younger guys how to play the game at this level.

Right. The coaches don't know crap. All the old guys are leaders.

Do you think Art Monk is full of crap when he credited the Over the Hill Gang for showing him how to be a pro and realize his potential in this league?

Right. Art Monk would have failed if it wasn't for Joe Theisman teaching him everything he knew about playing the WR slot.

Art Monk outworked all those old vets. Who did he learn that from?

 

[Oldfan]

You mean, the Green Bay Packers led by 36 year-old Donald Driver, 35 year-old Charles Woodson, and 35 year-old Chad Clifton? And who's defense last year was anchored by key contributions from 32 year-old Ryan Pickett and Howard Green?

THOSE Green Bay Packers?

I mean the Packers team that has fewer 30+ players than any good team in the NFL. Fewer even than many bad, rebuilding teams, like ours. THOSE Packers.

 

[DieselPwr44]

Art Monk outworked all those old vets. Who did he learn that from?

The Over the Hill Gang.

By Art's own admission. He credits them for teaching him how to practice and what he needed to work on as far as his game was concerned.

But as usual, you'll blow this off as nonsense, even though it was a Hall of Famer that said these things.

No one has any credibility unless they agree with your viewpoint, whether they're coaches,analysts or players.

And you call others "closed minded".............

 

[Neophyte]

Let's not let this get out of hand, folks. Please remember what we are about here.

 

[GSF]

You guys are being played here by OF, who entertains himself by posting this kind of stuff for the sake of reaction. Go read his thesis on ES how Beck would have lead the Redskins to a division title lol.

 

[Oldfan]

The Over the Hill Gang.

By Art's own admission. He credits them for teaching him how to practice and what he needed to work on as far as his game was concerned.

But as usual, you'll blow this off as nonsense, even though it was a Hall of Famer that said these things.

No one has any credibility unless they agree with your viewpoint, whether they're coaches,analysts or players.

And you call others "closed minded".............

I can imagine Art Monk who is a nice man saying nice things about his ex-mates, but your claim that Art Monk said these specific things is a claim that any fan who remembers Art Monk can blow off.

Art Monk didn't learn his practice habits from anyone. He had a very unique and demanding year-round regimen that included the unusual, such as uphill running, for example.

And, can you please name the player who taught him what part of his game he needed to work on. I can't imagine a player who would presume to give coaching advice like that. Was it another receiver?

 

[Oldfan]

You guys are being played here by OF, who entertains himself by posting this kind of stuff for the sake of reaction. Go read his thesis on ES how Beck would have lead the Redskins to a division title lol.

Why don't you go read it again -- because I didn't say that.

I wrote that if Beck could make the grade as a starting QB, he would improve the offense because Rex was a poor fit. Is there anything controversial in that?

I wrote that if Beck could make the grade, he'd give us a shot at the division title because I expected a close race coming down to the wire. I was right about that.

I made no predictions that Beck would start. I had no more idea how Beck would react when the bright lights came on than Mike Shanahan did.

 

[McD5]

Great to see you Oldfan. You are going to love this place.

 

[Ax]

I wrote that if Beck could make the grade, he'd give us a shot at the division title because I expected a close race coming down to the wire.

So you agree, we could have "won now", thereby contradicting almost everything else you've been saying in this thread.

Shanahan, properly made win now decisions, that just didn't pan out.

Welcome to the party pal.