Shanahan Needs To Stand Now On Own Two Feet

[Goaldeje]

But the thing is, he is not wrong.

No kidding. Do people not remember Vinny? Seriously? By next year, that excuse won't fly, no doubt. But up to this point, he had to rework almost the entire team.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

No kidding. Do people not remember Vinny? Seriously? By next year, that excuse won't fly, no doubt. But up to this point, he had to rework almost the entire team.

I honestly believe that if after 5 years we are just competing for a WC spot, he will have done well. I firmly believe Snyderatto are the root of all problems this team is currently experiencing, and Shanahan would be a scapegoat for theDanny if he gets fired.

 

[Bulldog]

I have been watching this team since 1972 when I was a little boy.

I don't have any question this team overall is moving in the right direction.

My concern comes in when Shanahan tries to whitewash 2010 as a 'lost' year that was beyond his control and for which he should receive sympathy.

The truth of the matter is he could have NOT traded for McNabb and kept the picks.

He also COULD have traded Haynesworth during the draft for a #3 pick from Tennessee, selected an offensive lineman or defensive lineman for the 3-4 and moved on, a full YEAR ahead of when he was finally traded to NE. During the time Shanahan was here Albert played a handful of games and on a limited basis in those contests.

Instead Shanahan contributed to and in some ways exacerbated his own problems.

But they were in the main HIS problems to deal with at that point.

 

[Oldfan]

I honestly believe that if after 5 years we are just competing for a WC spot, he will have done well. I firmly believe Snyderatto are the root of all problems this team is currently experiencing, and Shanahan would be a scapegoat for theDanny if he gets fired.

Vinny was and is a scapegoat for Skins fans who can't bring themselves to fault Joe Gibbs for anything. Now, it appears he will become the scapegoat for Skins fans who are reluctant to find fault with the rebuilding efforts of Mike Shanahan.

It should have been apparent to Mike that the roster he inherited needed to be rebuilt. Thus, every move he made should have been a rebuilding move and not a win-now move. Now, the problem we have in grading him is that we can't agree on what kind of moves were made. It just boggles my mind when fans argue that the McNabb trade wasn't just a win-now move, for example.

 

[fansince62]

We can't agree on that, Mike. Building a big play offense around a 34 year-old QB with diminishing skills isn't a good idea.

I like the passing scheme we have. Even with Rex running it, I see its potential. We just need more talent on offense.

exactly. due diligence. granted...hindsight: but a team letting their ALL-PRO go to a hated division rival? cmon now...Reid was laughing all the way to the draft pick bank. The Shanallens didn't do their homework.

the narrative that they thought they could win right off the bat rather than blowing the whole thing up and starting over seems most reasonable to me.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

exactly. due diligence. granted...hindsight: but a team letting their ALL-PRO go to a hated division rival? cmon now...Reid was laughing all the way to the draft pick bank. The Shanallens didn't do their homework.

the narrative that they thought they could win right off the bat rather than blowing the whole thing up and starting over seems most reasonable to me.

I think they just paid a little more because they WERE in the same division. I bet other teams were offering less. There was a market for McNabb though, I'm positive - so it wasn't just Shanahan & Allen who didn't do their homework. You want proof? After McNabb performed so poorly here, we were still able to ship him to Minnesota.

 

[Oldfan]

...the narrative that they thought they could win right off the bat rather than blowing the whole thing up and starting over seems most reasonable to me.

Of course it does... and that contradicts the notion that Shanny inherited a dog poop roster.

It was a roster in need of rebuilding, but not one nearly as bad as the one Martin Mayhew inherited in Detroit.

Had Mike traded away the players that did not fit the new schemes he had in mind for draft picks early in 2010, before degrading their worth by playing them out of position for a season, and traded Cooley if he had no plans for a base two TE scheme, we would have been better armed with draft picks in 2011.

From a rebuilding perspective, 2010 was a waste of time. This year was much better, but the rebuild is still hampered by Mike's focus on winning now. We have 10-11 roster slots filled by older veteran players who were on it for no other reason than to add a few meaningless wins.

 

[Oldfan]

hindsight is 20-20...

It doesn't seem so. Shanahan's mistakes, that were apparent to some of us with foresight, still aren't recognized as mistakes by many even with the benefit of hindsight.

...Haynesworth is not something I put on Shan.

I knew that Albert wouldn't fit the 3-4 and should have been traded for the best offer in the 2010 offseason. Didn't you?

 

[Goaldeje]

Ummm, so what woudl you suggest, OF? Seems to me, in my infinite wisdom that you need guys like Fletcher around who can teach the kids some intangibles, like how to win, how to act like a pro, etc. You won't find a board that detests DHall more than this one (for the most part), so I'll grant you that one. I think most of us agree that year one was a **** up. But year two is most definitely headed in the right direction, which is a good sign. Hell, even Henry is happy with year two (I think), which tells me all I need to know.

I'm not sure what else you expect from Mike? He could have positioned himself better in year one, but he didn't. Move on. He seems to have learned and has made corrections. That's about all you can hope for, I would think.

 

[Elephant]

I'm not sure what else you expect from Mike? He could have positioned himself better in year one, but he didn't. Move on. He seems to have learned and has made corrections. That's about all you can hope for, I would think.

I don't think it is an expectation from Mike so much as a fear that he may not be capable of rebuilding the team. While I am convinced this organization is on the upswing, I am not convinced that we will be much better than Denver was in the 2000's. While they were good, they were only ever once in the hunt for a Super Bowl from 2000-2008 once Shanahan had almost sole control of the team.

Like many have suggested, we know he's a quality coach, but is he a quality talent evaluator? This past off-season may suggest as much but like fs62 claims, we have only Kerrigan as solid proof of a successful choice, Helu probably is as well. The others have yet to prove their potential so the jury is still out. However, the first season under him suggests he is not quite the evaluator of talent or tactful at dumping/trading players at their peak value.

 

[Oldfan]

Ummm, so what woudl you suggest, OF? Seems to me, in my infinite wisdom that you need guys like Fletcher around who can teach the kids some intangibles, like how to win, how to act like a pro, etc. You won't find a board that detests DHall more than this one (for the most part), so I'll grant you that one. I think most of us agree that year one was a **** up. But year two is most definitely headed in the right direction, which is a good sign. Hell, even Henry is happy with year two (I think), which tells me all I need to know.

I'm not sure what else you expect from Mike? He could have positioned himself better in year one, but he didn't. Move on.

He seems to have learned and has made corrections. That's about all you can hope for, I would think.

You seem to be having difficulty figuring out the topic and staying on it. My comments have supported the OP's position that Shanny and his closest followers seem to be trying to whitewash Mike's dumb 2010 roster moves. You have managed to twist that into an assertion that I'm unable to move on from 2010.

As for 2011, I was surprised and delighted with the change of strategy. We are now actually rebuilding. Am I completely happy with the rebuilding effort? No. There's still a win-now streak that Shanahan can't let go of. That means that there will be roster slots and snaps sopped up by older vets who have no future with this team.

I've heard all the psychological speculation on the advantages of having older vets on the roster. I think it's all BS. like the BS that McNabb was going to be a leader and a mentor. We need those roster slots and the snaps to audition more players.

This past offseason, I was opposed to signing Atogwe, Stallworth, Buchanon, Brown and Moss. I was opposed to keeping Sellers. I'm opposed to keeping Fletcher next season.

 

[Goaldeje]

I don't think it is an expectation from Mike so much as a fear that he may not be capable of rebuilding the team. While I am convinced this organization is on the upswing, I am not convinced that we will be much better than Denver was in the 2000's. While they were good, they were only ever once in the hunt for a Super Bowl from 2000-2008 once Shanahan had almost sole control of the team.

Like many have suggested, we know he's a quality coach, but is he a quality talent evaluator? This past off-season may suggest as much but like fs62 claims, we have only Kerrigan as solid proof of a successful choice, Helu probably is as well. The others have yet to prove their potential so the jury is still out. However, the first season under him suggests he is not quite the evaluator of talent or tactful at dumping/trading players at their peak value.

I guess you can label me cheerful optimist or something, but I see nothing but a terrific draft last year. Our choices ostensibly were to either trade down or take Blaine Gabbert (as far as we know). Given how wildly unsuccessful Gabbert has been to date, and how we Skins fans have yearned for more than 4 draft picks in a draft, I am a bit surprised to now hear that fans are unhappy with Shanahan. I am not as high on Jenkins as others, but given that at a minimum, he got two starters (and potential very good - star level players) in Kerrigan and Helu in the first 4 rounds, and some very good complementary depth from round 5 on (at least, some may end up being starters), I genuinely don't understand how the 2011 draft can be considered anything but very, very solid, at least.

As I have said, he screwed up 2010. Not ducking that at all. What you want to see is an ability to learn from his mistakes, which I think he has demonstrated. To me, that's really all you can ask for.

 

[Goaldeje]

You seem to be having difficulty figuring out the topic and staying on it. My comments have supported the OP's position that Shanny and his closest followers seem to be trying to whitewash Mike's dumb 2010 roster moves. You have managed to twist that into an assertion that I'm unable to move on from 2010.

As for 2011, I was surprised and delighted with the change of strategy. We are now actually rebuilding. Am I completely happy with the rebuilding effort? No. There's still a win-now streak that Shanahan can't let go of. That means that there will be roster slots and snaps sopped up by older vets who have no future with this team.

I've heard all the psychological speculation on the advantages of having older vets on the roster. I think it's all BS. like the BS that McNabb was going to be a leader and a mentor. We need those roster slots and the snaps to audition more players.

This past offseason, I was opposed to signing Atogwe, Stallworth, Buchanon, Brown and Moss. I was opposed to keeping Sellers. I'm opposed to keeping Fletcher next season.

You completely lost me with your last sentence. Could not disagree more, and as for your "psychological advantages" line, I think that says a lot more about you and your understanding of the way humans work than anything else.

As for the rest of your post, are you suggesting we should have jettisoned anyone over the age of 25, and gone with UDFAs? Having anyone over the age of 25 (or 26, 27, whatever) means Shanahan is in a win-now mode?

 

[Neophyte]

As for 2011, I was surprised and delighted with the change of strategy. We are now actually rebuilding. Am I completely happy with the rebuilding effort? No. There's still a win-now streak that Shanahan can't let go of. That means that there will be roster slots and snaps sopped up by older vets who have no future with this team.

Show me an NFL coach that doesn't want to "win now" and I will show you a loser. I not only don't have a problem with a coach that wants to "win now", I expect it.

I've heard all the psychological speculation on the advantages of having older vets on the roster. I think it's all BS. like the BS that McNabb was going to be a leader and a mentor. We need those roster slots and the snaps to audition more players.

While I agree that McNabb was not a leader or mentor type, I will argue this with Fletcher. He embodies what it is to be a professional football player and makes those around him for any amount of time better player through example in the film room, on the practice field and in his personal life. You HAVE to have guys like him on the team.

This past offseason, I was opposed to signing Atogwe, Stallworth, Buchanon, Brown and Moss. I was opposed to keeping Sellers. I'm opposed to keeping Fletcher next season.

I agree on half of these and disagree on the other half although I do like how none of these guys were paid staggeringly stupid money like the team would have in the past.

 

[Elephant]

You're missing the point Goal. He made some drastic errors in the first year that make me question his ability in the long run to take us back to winning Super Bowls. Was this past draft a success? It looks as though it is, but we won't know how successful until 2 or 3 years down the road. Again, I hate to say this, but the Sean Taylor pick was not successful and he was the best player we have drafted in the past decade. There is not fault in it, I am just using his situation to illustrate how we just don't know how successful it is right now.

I like many of the players drafted. While Kerrigan and Helu seem to be great picks, Willie Smith and Maurice Hurt could turn out to be the best picks/acquisitions of the draft in terms of value. We just don't know at this point. I liked Royster in the pre-season and just did not understand why he was being held back for an oft injured Ryan Torain. But his one great game could turn out to be a flash in the pan as fs62 said. It is just too early to call this draft wildly successful.

I was a proponent of the Shanahan hire when it was announced. I did not want a retread Super Bowl winning coach coming in and given too much control. Allen is a refreshing change from Vinny, but I am not sure how much of the player personnel he plays part in. The Martin Mayhew analogy mentioned earlier is a great example. The man is all about player acquisition and has done a pretty good job of it in Detroit, or so it appears. I don't see Shanahan as the man to do this and coach this team. While he "may" have had a lot of success in this past draft, the decisions he made last year lend credence to the outcries that were heard in Denver that he was not a great evaluator of talent.

 

[Goaldeje]

I don't understand what point I'm missing, El. I have agreed with most of what you are saying. Are you now arguing we should get rid of Shanny? Because you don't feel he will take us to the promised land? If you don't feel he can get it done, we really should fire him, shouldn't we? What's the point otherwise?

I am encouraged because it seems like he is tacitly admitting mistakes and trying to correct them. He came in, thought he could win now, made moves accordingly, and that failed. So he switched gears and is trying to build through the draft. This off season will tell us a lot, but if he continues the path he is on, I'm not sure why people are so frustrated with him. Are you suggesting we get rid of him because of the McNabb mistake? He made a mistake, ,he is now trying to correct it. Good for him, I say.

 

[Elephant]

I don't understand what point I'm missing, El. I have agreed with most of what you are saying. Are you now arguing we should get rid of Shanny? Because you don't feel he will take us to the promised land? If you don't feel he can get it done, we really should fire him, shouldn't we? What's the point otherwise?

I am encouraged because it seems like he is tacitly admitting mistakes and trying to correct them. He came in, thought he could win now, made moves accordingly, and that failed. So he switched gears and is trying to build through the draft. This off season will tell us a lot, but if he continues the path he is on, I'm not sure why people are so frustrated with him. Are you suggesting we get rid of him because of the McNabb mistake? He made a mistake, ,he is now trying to correct it. Good for him, I say.

Oh no, I am in it for the long haul with Shanahan, I have to be because I know "if" he's going to get it done, it is going to take years. I was just saying I would rather have seen Snyder hire Allen as the GM without Shanahan's approval and I would like to have seen Snyder hire someone like DeCosta in Baltimore to run Scouting/Player Acquisition. As it stands, I have to hope that with Bruce Allen playing more of a role in player acquisition and his son's innovation on the field (so long as papa reigns him in when he gets out of control) he is not over burdened with the wears of trying to do it all. It would be disastrous to get rid of him now. There is a different recipe for leadership here than there was in Denver. I hope that is the difference between his tenure here and the previous 8 years in Denver.

I just second guess how far along we actually are after a performance like this past weekend. Regardless of the injuries we beat a team, handily, that will go down to the last game of the season playing for the Division title then we turn around and lose to a team that by all accounts we should have dominated.

So with the mistakes he made last year and the underwhelming progress, I am not ready to give him a pass until there is more proof that this draft class in indeed as special as it appears it could be after one season with these players. I believe we have solid depth with many of the players we drafted, but I will still question Shanahan. Until I see us win the division and play deep in the playoffs, I am going to continue to be wary. History shows I should be.

My point/opinion is that when the coach makes tragic errors in judgement I have to wonder if he will ever get us to the promised land and until the 2011 draft class has had the opporutniy to prove themselves with the addition of another draft class or 2, which could take at least a couple more years, I am going to continue to question whether Shanahan can do it.

I like your optimism, but I am now in the proof is in the pudding mold. The pudding is still being mixed, it is going to take time to develop and until it does we are not going to know how good it can/cannot be.

 

[GSF]

Not bringing back Fletcher as suggested would be beyond stupid. It would be catastrophic for the defense. Fletcher is the leader of the defense as well as the best player.

 

[Henry]

Hell, even Henry is happy with year two (I think), which tells me all I need to know.

Oh don't go bringing ME into this thread. Trust me, it won't impress Oldfan.

Actually, as much as it pains me to admit I agree with him in this thread far more than I disagree with him (though I probably do have a more positive view of this past offseason than he does.)

 

[Oldfan]

Show me an NFL coach that doesn't want to "win now" and I will show you a loser. I not only don't have a problem with a coach that wants to "win now", I expect it.

My unsolicited advice: Learn to love mediocrity. That's what you will get from a coach whose roster decisions rest on winning games the next season.

When Belichik traded Richard Seymore for draft picks, it was certainly not a win-now move. Did you call him a loser when you heard about it?

While I agree that McNabb was not a leader or mentor type, I will argue this with Fletcher. He embodies what it is to be a professional football player and makes those around him for any amount of time better player through example in the film room, on the practice field and in his personal life. You HAVE to have guys like him on the team.

I think that's just an excuse to keep another player who can help us win now. We need that roster slot and the snaps he gets. There are leaders on the team who are 25 and 26 years old. Art Monk didn't suddenly become a team leader at 35.

I agree on half of these and disagree on the other half although I do like how none of these guys were paid staggeringly stupid money like the team would have in the past

Money isn't the drawback. We need the roster slots and the snaps to audition fresh talent.