Redskins Relieve Mike Shanahan of Duties

[Goaldeje]

Great post Al. I will add that I keep reading that we are not a desirable franchise to coach for, largely due to Snyder. In fact, I think I saw someone list us below the Browns and the Bucs in order of desirable-ness. Say what you will about Shanahan, but he did not leave the cupboard bare. We have two excellent QBs on the roster, along with a RB that challenged for the rushing title most of the season, and a WR who just set the franchise record for catches.

Certainly there are a lot of holes. But if I was a prospective coach, one of the first things I would want answered was Dan's level of involvement. Given that he has just shown for four years he can be hands off, that's not as big of an issue as some are making it out to be, imo. In fact, it seems like lazy reporting from where I sit.

(none of this is to say that Danny hasn't earned his reputation - he has. Many times over. Just sure it's applicable here)

From where I sit, this is a fairly nice situation to come into - franchise QB AND a really good backup, good core of skill players on O, need to rework the D and the OLine, but have a ton of cap space with which to work. I don't think we are going to need to beg people to come work here.

 

[fansince62]

Good post fansince62. And while I agree with most of what you said, I'll say that Shamahan earned his firing. Up until the very end, I was in favor of retaining him for the final year of his contract. But his demeanor, and actions, over the last month, confirmed in my mind, all my initial distastes for the man. A petty, overrated, maniacal prick. More concerned with his own reputation than anything else. I accept, and appreciate the good he did do for us. But, IMO, he turned on his own team, which includes everyone from the owner to the water boy, for the sake of saving his own self image. And for that, there is no redemption.

He was the source of the leaks. A day before, or the day of, games. Unforgivable. Not the kind of leadership for a head coach. I believe the players knew it, and regardless of any public support, he lost them.

So, my parting thoughts would be, "Thank you, and **** you, Mike".

Ax/Goal...my intent all along has been two-fold: demonstrate that Shanahan has turned the franchise in a better direction from where it had been; propose that changes have been substantive enough that real progress can be achieved in the future (i.e., the stage has been set, somewhat, for the next set of fixes needed to get us back to respectability and competitive football).

Shanahan mishandled several things and now he's gone. In short, like many things in life, there was good and there was bad. the bad, IMO, was partly his own creation and partly circumstances out of his control. but, unlike other venues in our lives these days... ... Shanahan was ultimately held accountable. I have no problem with this. but I want to see the facts and root causes as clearly as possible....and assign credit and blame accurately. more importantly, and I'll admit some qualities of "wishful" thinking, I want to set a perspective (at least for me) that warrants thinking "yup....this 20+ year odyssey of arrant stupidity and total frustration has an escape path." and I think that path is there. granted, all potential at this point. a lot of things are still going to have to come together: a smoothly functioning FO; a personnel department that replenishes the depth and locates the additional required starting talent (especially at RT and secondary!); a coaching staff that has the schematic concepts, flexibility and player relationship skills appropriate to the way the game is played these days; a GM who knows how to orchestrate al the working parts so that the momentum keeps moving forward. and an owner who understands what his role truly should be. I see bits and pieces of all of these tasks taking shape. way early to plant the success flag - this could very easily be undone...most especially by the owner or a poor HC decision. but this is part of the fun! there is change in the air. it's very tenuous at the moment - but it's there. unlike El and some others, I fundamentally believe what we are observing is different from what we have seen in the past. I believe flawed people are making an effort to plan and execute in a more conventional, NFL required, known to succeed way. since it is at the beginning, transformative stages it can easily fail. no doubt about it. but I see evidence of not only a will to change but some pieces to execute the transformation on the field. another way of stating it: yes, horrendous year. pathetic football. but not as bad as some might think. a lot of things went wrong this year I believe will be hard to replicate. absent repetition (e.g., a QB with no off-season; an $18 mil cap hit) and a new set of field commanders who take the next steps in resurrecting this team and we are already better next season. 8-8 or 10-6 better? don't know - we don't have a coaching staff yet! but, recent NFL history and the facts of our circumstances certainly support the idea that it is entirely possible. and I think that is enough of a rock to feel better about the future.

 

[Elephant]

Al, you keep bringing up that Shanahan is far better than Cerrato at player evaluation when the reality is, the products he's fielded have not proven to be far better than anything Cerrato produced. You keep discussing context...then let's talk about context.

Shanahan as VP in 4 years here had a winning percentage of .375.

Cerrato as VP had a winning percentage of .450

Product on the field shows Vinnie did better here.

I know that is just a number. I know this franchise was not better under Vinnie than Shanahan.

But you keep talking about how much better position this team is in, and I am saying we are right back where we were before we hired Shanahan...looking for a new head coach and restructuring our front office. You demand a statistical formula to prove my assertion, but all you need is to look at the bottom line. We are looking for a new head coach, just like when Zorn was fired.

The differences are promising, we seem to have finally put the proper front office structure in place and we have promising skills players, but it's the same boat. We need a slew of players to fill the voids left behind, only difference, we have more money to do it...which will be needed because we don't have a 1st round pick in the draft.

Yes, again, things are promising with the players we have at the skill positions...Griffin, Morris Garcon, but I don't need metrics you demand to see the terrible position Shanahan put us in while he was here. You yourself keep talking about the lack of quality we have on the current roster. Well, I would suggest we had better quality when Shanahan took over. Shanahan could have done far better with the team he had if he'd done things differently...like not switch to a 3-4. They were just older and placed in a 3-4 defense for which they were not suited. Zorn's squad was aging, yes, but Shanahan dismantled that entire defense...for what? The 31st ranked defense in the NFL?


If you want to say the organization is better off than when Shanahan got here, ok...I can go along. If you say the team is better off. I point you to our record. We are 3-13...when Zorn left he had the same winning percentage that Shanahan had.

 

[Goaldeje]

Devin Thomas, Sleepy/Druggy, and the Comb vs. Any of Shanahan's drafts.

The defense rests, your honor.

 

[tshile]

Devin Thomas, Sleepy/Druggy, and the Comb vs. Any of Shanahan's drafts.

The defense rests, your honor.

Shanahan hit on early round guys, and was so/so on late round guys.

Cerrato couldn't hit on a first round draft pick if his life depended on it.

First round draft picks should be automatic, can't miss selections. I have no problem with not giving Shanahan credit for his first round selections. But Cerrato couldn't hit on first rounders, and that needs to not be forgotten.

He was so awful his first round selects were shaky at best.

 

[Goaldeje]

Right. I'm not arguing Mike should have stayed on, or that he didn't make mistakes; I was ambivalent about him staying or going, I could have made arguments either way, and he certainly made MANY mistakes that hurt his case.

But to argue that he left the team in worse shape than Vinny left it, or even as bad shape is, imo, preposterous. We are light years ahead of where we were after the dreaded Zinny combo, both in terms of organizational structure AND the product on the field. Vinny may get blamed for Danny's Shiny New Toy preoccupation too much, I don't know, but I do know our Redskins were a dysfunctional joke for all but the four years Gibbs got things under control (which Zinny managed to undue in less than a year - thus returning us to Raiders-level joke). The most valuable thing in the short term that Shanahan brought us is Snyder leaving things alone. If that lack of control can be extended to the new FO, we have a chance to turn things around quickly, largely because of some of the personnel decisions Shanny made.

He was disastrous for the defense, which is pretty much what everyone said would happen when he took the job, but did very well (by and large) with the offense. The Offensive Line needs addressing, and another WR would be nice, but our skill positions are pretty well set. Defensively, a switch back to the 4-3 would cure a lot of what ails us, imo. The 3-4 is on Shanny, and is one of the reasons we lost so many games which led to his firing. With an energetic DCoordinator to switch things up a little, combined with some smart drafting and FA signing and the D could be middle of the pack next year pretty easily. Combine that with an O that is already in the top half, with a little improvement, we could easily be 8-8 or even 10-6 next year.

At no point when Shanny took over and had to play with Zinny's mess did I think 8-8 or 10-6 was possible in his first year.

 

[Elephant]

Shanahan hit on early round guys, and was so/so on late round guys.

Cerrato couldn't hit on a first round draft pick if his life depended on it.

First round draft picks should be automatic, can't miss selections. I have no problem with not giving Shanahan credit for his first round selections. But Cerrato couldn't hit on first rounders, and that needs to not be forgotten.

He was so awful his first round selects were shaky at best.

So Brian Orakpo was a complete bust?
Carlos Rogers?
Sean Taylor?
Champ Bailey?
Lavar Arrington?
Chris Samuels?

Please stop making me defend that scumbag Cerrato by making statements as completely incorrect as the above statement you made!

I just gave you a list of players whom all made at least one pro-bowl most several...they were all drafted when Vinny "Piece of ****" Cerrato was the VP in charge of player personnel.

You can add Jason Campbell, Patrick Ramsey and Laron Landry to that list...but I would agree all were busts. Landry and Ramsey more circumstance dictated their bust.

 

[Elephant]

At no point when Shanny took over and had to play with Zinny's mess did I think 8-8 or 10-6 was possible in his first year.

Don't make me go back through your posting history and show you where you were giddier with Shanahan as the hire for the savior of this team than you were drinking your first berry beer!

 

[Goaldeje]

I do love berry bear.

Once I wrap my head around someone and they are my team's coach, I will support them until they aren't. Period. But I think you would fine some misgivings about his defensive problems in Denver that were brought up by a lot of people. Again though, once he was hired, he's my guy.

 

[tshile]

So Brian Orakpo was a complete bust?
Carlos Rogers?
Sean Taylor?
Champ Bailey?
Lavar Arrington?
Chris Samuels?

Please stop making me defend that scumbag Cerrato by making statements as completely incorrect as the above statement you made!

I just gave you a list of players whom all made at least one pro-bowl most several...they were all drafted when Vinny "Piece of ****" Cerrato was the VP in charge of player personnel.

You can add Jason Campbell, Patrick Ramsey and Laron Landry to that list...but I would agree all were busts. Landry and Ramsey more circumstance dictated their bust.

You gave me a list of 5 first round picks over a 9 year period.

Here's the others:
Rod Garnder
Patrick Ramsey
LaRon Landry
Jason Campbell

So yeah, congrats, he's running at a 50% hit rate in first round draft picks. And that's assuming Orakpo works out to be worthy of a first round pick; not so sure anyone can actually say that right now...

Like I said. First rounders should be automatic, can't miss selections. Over 9 years Vinny was 50%. That's ****ing dreadful.

Let's look at second rounders.
Fred Smooth, Ladell Betts, Taylor Jacobs, Devin Thomas, Fred Davis, Malcom Kelly

Many o four first and second round picks were gone. Not going to bother looking up why, I'm sure they were all for incredibly shitty trades.

Vinny sucked. He was awful. There are few comparisons because few GM's have done such a poor job.

Comparing him to Shanahan is a joke. It's not even close. The only people saying it is are people that want to shit all over Shanahan so bad they're completely blinded by their hatred.

 

[SkinsNumberOne]

Let's look at second rounders.
Fred Smooth, Ladell Betts, Taylor Jacobs, Devin Thomas, Fred Davis, Malcom Kelly

Many o four first and second round picks were gone. Not going to bother looking up why, I'm sure they were all for incredibly shitty trades.

Vinny sucked. He was awful. There are few comparisons because few GM's have done such a poor job.

Comparing him to Shanahan is a joke. It's not even close. The only people saying it is are people that want to shit all over Shanahan so bad they're completely blinded by their hatred.

Concurred. And the last three are the really telling ones.

When you have 3 second round picks in a year, that is your shot at making some great changes to a team. That was 2008 if I recall, it was Zorn's opportunity to make something happen. I remember very well Cerrato's comments at the time as well to try to justify 3 picks at a similar position - it was something like "we were shocked these guys were available where they were, we projected them much higher." If his previous horrid failures weren't proof enough, come on - that was the ultimate proof the guy just had no clue. The result of that round was pathetic - it could have really made a difference for the Redskins, and it was Vinny's opportunity to either prove his value or fail.

Vinny's failures were multi-dimensional. As a talent-evaluator, as a contracts guy, as a <insert GM responsibility here>.

Shanahan is much better than Vinny. That isn't saying much, because a blindfolded dart-thrower has a chance at being better (in terms of talent evaluation), but there it is. What's funny is he purported himself to have talent evaluation locked down as his big innovative skill, with a big binder of breakdowns of pretty much every player. In case anyone needs a refresher course on Cerrato, here is some fun reading, google index: cerrato binder players - Mike Wise - Cerrato's Special Working Relationship

 

[Elephant]

You gave me a list of 5 first round picks over a 9 year period.

Here's the others:
Rod Garnder
Patrick Ramsey
LaRon Landry
Jason Campbell

So yeah, congrats, he's running at a 50% hit rate in first round draft picks. And that's assuming Orakpo works out to be worthy of a first round pick; not so sure anyone can actually say that right now...

Like I said. First rounders should be automatic, can't miss selections. Over 9 years Vinny was 50%. That's ****ing dreadful.

Let's look at second rounders.
Fred Smooth, Ladell Betts, Taylor Jacobs, Devin Thomas, Fred Davis, Malcom Kelly

Many o four first and second round picks were gone. Not going to bother looking up why, I'm sure they were all for incredibly shitty trades.

Vinny sucked. He was awful. There are few comparisons because few GM's have done such a poor job.

Comparing him to Shanahan is a joke. It's not even close. The only people saying it is are people that want to shit all over Shanahan so bad they're completely blinded by their hatred.

Once again you are making a huge mistake! Rod Gardner was Marty Schottenheimer's draft pick! And t-, I did mention the others!

Where do you get this 50% number? I gave you a list of 6...not 5! And I included the names you mentioned...except of course Rod Gardner because he was not a Cerrato 1st round pick. How is 6/9 50%?


The joke is that you said, "Cerrato couldn't hit on a first round draft pick if his life depended on it."

I proved that statement to be wrong. Absolutely, unequivocally, unmistakably, emphatically WRONG!!!! Yet here you are trying to twist the argument to fit what you said.

6/9 pro-bowlers in the first round is pretty solid. Chris Samuels and Chap Bailey are likely Hall of Famers.

Looks like he hit on a 1st rounder...I am not sure his life depended on it though, so you could be right.

 

[tshile]

Shanahan is much better than Vinny. That isn't saying much, because a blindfolded dart-thrower has a chance at being better (in terms of talent evaluation), but there it is. [/url]

And that's what gets lost in the back and forth. Shanahan made a lot of mistakes, i think most everyone agrees with that.

But he was infinitely better than Cerrato.

That's not to prop up Shanahan, or say he should have stayed, or anything else.

The bar was just that unbelievably low.

When NFL network does a list of top 10 worst GM's Vinny will be in it. Shanahan will not.

In fact, when NFL Network did top 10 free agent busts, they gave the Redskins #1 because, according to them, otherwise the whole list would have just been redskins. On a list of individual free agent busts, the entire team was given #1. That's how terrible we were with Vinny in charge.

In fact, majority of the criticism being lobbed at the team right now is ultimately rooted in the 1999-2009 time period when Vinny was running things (with Snyder.)

 

[fansince62]

Al, you keep bringing up that Shanahan is far better than Cerrato at player evaluation when the reality is, the products he's fielded have not proven to be far better than anything Cerrato produced. You keep discussing context...then let's talk about context.

Shanahan as VP in 4 years here had a winning percentage of .375.

Cerrato as VP had a winning percentage of .450

Product on the field shows Vinnie did better here.

I know that is just a number. I know this franchise was not better under Vinnie than Shanahan.

But you keep talking about how much better position this team is in, and I am saying we are right back where we were before we hired Shanahan...looking for a new head coach and restructuring our front office. You demand a statistical formula to prove my assertion, but all you need is to look at the bottom line. We are looking for a new head coach, just like when Zorn was fired.

The differences are promising, we seem to have finally put the proper front office structure in place and we have promising skills players, but it's the same boat. We need a slew of players to fill the voids left behind, only difference, we have more money to do it...which will be needed because we don't have a 1st round pick in the draft.

Yes, again, things are promising with the players we have at the skill positions...Griffin, Morris Garcon, but I don't need metrics you demand to see the terrible position Shanahan put us in while he was here. You yourself keep talking about the lack of quality we have on the current roster. Well, I would suggest we had better quality when Shanahan took over. Shanahan could have done far better with the team he had if he'd done things differently...like not switch to a 3-4. They were just older and placed in a 3-4 defense for which they were not suited. Zorn's squad was aging, yes, but Shanahan dismantled that entire defense...for what? The 31st ranked defense in the NFL?


If you want to say the organization is better off than when Shanahan got here, ok...I can go along. If you say the team is better off. I point you to our record. We are 3-13...when Zorn left he had the same winning percentage that Shanahan had.

Brian...follow any thought process you like! if it stops at simple record comparisons - so be it!

Myself and others have a different perspective. in my own mind - drawing an equivalency between Cerratto and Shanahan is laughable on so many planes it's not even worth addressing. I think you have an emotional component to your thought process that is over-taking reason. but...time will tell!

 

[tshile]

Once again you are making a huge mistake! Rod Gardner was Marty Schottenheimer's draft pick! And t-, I did mention the others!

Where do you get this 50% number? I gave you a list of 6...not 5! And I included the names you mentioned...except of course Rod Gardner because he was not a Cerrato 1st round pick. How is 6/9 50%?


The joke is that you said, "Cerrato couldn't hit on a first round draft pick if his life depended on it."

I proved that statement to be wrong. Absolutely, unequivocally, unmistakably, emphatically WRONG!!!! Yet here you are trying to twist the argument to fit what you said.

6/9 pro-bowlers in the first round is pretty solid. Chris Samuels and Chap Bailey are likely Hall of Famers.

Looks like he hit on a 1st rounder...I am not sure his life depended on it though, so you could be right.

You took a joke and make it literal.

Good job.

You're right. Cerrato and Shanahan are on the same level. The team is is just as bad off now as it was before. There's just no way to see otherwise.

 

[Ax]

Ax/Goal...

I agree with everything you said. And I still believe Shamahan earned his dismissal. For where we were, at the time, he was almost an only option. But now, with things in a better position, reputation and cap wise, we need someone better.

 

[fansince62]

And that's what gets lost in the back and forth. Shanahan made a lot of mistakes, i think most everyone agrees with that.

But he was infinitely better than Cerrato.

That's not to prop up Shanahan, or say he should have stayed, or anything else.

The bar was just that unbelievably low.

When NFL network does a list of top 10 worst GM's Vinny will be in it. Shanahan will not.

In fact, when NFL Network did top 10 free agent busts, they gave the Redskins #1 because, according to them, otherwise the whole list would have just been redskins. On a list of individual free agent busts, the entire team was given #1. That's how terrible we were with Vinny in charge.

In fact, majority of the criticism being lobbed at the team right now is ultimately rooted in the 1999-2009 time period when Vinny was running things (with Snyder.)

exactly. Shanahan wasn't good enough to undo the mess he inherited. in particular, his ego got in the way and led to some bad decisions. but that shouldn't mask the reality that he initiated some of the hard ditch digging needed to un-eff this organization. I look at it as his contract being the necessary evil needed to reposition Snyder's role in running this team. That contract led to some other problems - but those are now behind us. progress has been made. it's now up to Snyder, Allen and the new coach to pick up the ball and carry it further forward. I don't care what anyone says - this team is not as screwed up as it was a scant four years ago when we were shedding a QB qua head coach and hiring bingo callers!

 

[Bulldog]

Any good GM is going to make mistakes. Certainly Beathard did if you look at high picks like Wally Kleine, Walter Murray and Brian Davis.

BUT, in the end the GM is paid for winning. So, those GMs that counter such mistakes with consequent moves to unearth the pro bowlers and surprise stars to overcome the failures win out.

Beathard and his staff found Grimm in Round 3, Manley in Round 5, Didier in Round 12, McKenzie in Round 11, Gary Clark and Ricky Sanders from the USFL, etc.

The problem with Shanahan as GM is that SO MANY of his moves turned out to be duds. Yes, we picked up Morris and Garcon.

But we also went with McNabb and then Grossman/Beck for 2 years and NONE of these guys was the answer, or even part of the answer. Shanahan personally vouched for Beck.

Jammal Brown was given a $30M contract extension AFTER he came here and showed he had a chronic hip injury that did not resolve itself in TWO years. That was an example of throwing good money after bad.

The Redskins drafted LeRibeus, Gettis and Compton and brought in free agents such as Artis Hicks and Chris Chester, and yet to date the offensive line is still problematic and features former waiver wire pickups and guys that were on other teams' practice squads.

The Redskins traded down to get extra picks and then draft Ryan Kerrigan at #16. Top half of the first round.

While Kerrigan has been a solid player for the most part, he has not been a dominant player in the mold of a DeMarcus Ware or Clay Matthews, other outside backers taken at similar or later spots in Round 1.

The situation at safety has been a joke. It has been four years and counting on finding a combination back there that works.

Shanahan went out and signed OJ Atogwe to play free safety for solid money and he was done. Never made an impact here.

We picked DeJon Gomes (5th round) and while he contributed on special teams was horrible in coverage.

Tanard Jackson never really played here due to pending drug suspensions. Brandon Meriweather was given a $3M bonus despite being a street free agent that had just been cut by Chicago and New England. His play has been uneven and at 29/30 I don't see much upside there.

My point in running down the safeties is that YES a GM can make a mistake or two in finding players at a spot like FS or SS, but in the end you have to find SOMEBODY to do the job!

That is what Shanahan failed at.

Open, festering sores at a number of positions STAYED that way for four seasons.

That is unacceptable.

 

[fansince62]

I agree with everything you said. And I still believe Shamahan earned his dismissal. For where we were, at the time, he was almost an only option. But now, with things in a better position, reputation and cap wise, we need someone better.

Agree 1000%. My purpose has never been to state what a swell guy Shanahan is...or what a great coach he was. my intent was to arrest some of the woe are us posting going on by pointing out the substantive changes. if one looks at this as a process with multiple phases - well, we just got through phase 1. now it's on to phase 2.

 

[Elephant]

You took a joke and make it literal.

Good job.

You're right. Cerrato and Shanahan are on the same level. The team is is just as bad off now as it was before. There's just no way to see otherwise.

Nice try, you made claims that were proven untrue and I exposed you for it.

As for the disagreements regarding the current state of affairs regarding this team/organization. You have disproved nothing. It is all speculation at this point. We just ended a season at 3-13. I heard many of the same arguments now as I heard when Shanahan was hired...the organization is going in the right direction...blah, blah, blah. I will believe it when I see it. Cap space? We had plenty of Cap space when Shanahan tied up Hall and Fat Al's contracts in one year...we see how that turned out. We have no 1st round pick this year with a team that is devoid of talent. But we have a lot of money to spend of Free Agents! I will respectfully simply agree to disagree there.