Random Commanders Thoughts

[Burgundy Burner]

That moment when you realize that it is time to toss one of your Redskins shirts. Too many holes in it and most of the team name and logo is about gone. It had a good run of about twenty-five years. Farewell old friend.

 

[fansince62]

Your post almost has a political note to it, and we know not to go there... don't we

I didn't think anybody would take my post as anything but sarcastic.

I'm standing right behind Snyder.... not a hell of a lot taller either, and echoing his words concerning a name change.

Loved your post!

And you're right!

HTTR! HTTR! HTTR! HTTR! HTTR!

 

[Shi no Tenshi]

That moment when you realize that it is time to toss one of your Redskins shirts. Too many holes in it and most of the team name and logo is about gone. It had a good run of about twenty-five years. Farewell old friend.

All you can say to that is:

 

[Kel Varnsen]

That moment when you realize that it is time to toss one of your Redskins shirts. Too many holes in it and most of the team name and logo is about gone. It had a good run of about twenty-five years. Farewell old friend.

Those are my workout shirts. I have a few with majorly faded logos. I worked out in one tonight. Had my yellow shorts on too. I can never bring myself to throw one away.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

I am so glad that us poor stupid indians have smart old white liberals to explain to us when we should take offense and when we should be upset, its not like a lot of reserves and native mens teams call ourselves the redskins. ohhh wait.

p.s. I sent an email with a list of 10 CREDIBLE native people who consider ourselves to be Redskins fans and some of us are fairly well known in the human rights groups, but we were ignored, and 2 of the people are actually really well known natives lol

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

The name is gonna change, Ive accepted it, I am angry about it, and I have spoken up in public against it, but the truth is the anti name people are louder than we are, and the most annoying thing is none of them even watch football, but this way they get to feel good about "helping" indians.

 

[Miles Monroe]

I am so glad that us poor stupid indians have smart old white liberals to explain to us when we should take offense and when we should be upset, its not like a lot of reserves and native mens teams call ourselves the redskins. ohhh wait.

p.s. I sent an email with a list of 10 CREDIBLE native people who consider ourselves to be Redskins fans and some of us are fairly well known in the human rights groups, but we were ignored, and 2 of the people are actually really well known natives lol

Might I ask, did you send your list to the media or government employee ?

 

[fansince62]

That moment when you realize that it is time to toss one of your Redskins shirts. Too many holes in it and most of the team name and logo is about gone. It had a good run of about twenty-five years. Farewell old friend.

you just reminded me of something. so...let us assume mindless PC takes hold and the team name/logo changes. does the team still hold copyrights to the logo? can someone start a cottage biz producing tee shirts, ball caps, etc., with the old logo and Redskins' label?

 

[Lanky Livingston]

I am so glad that us poor stupid indians have smart old white liberals to explain to us when we should take offense and when we should be upset, its not like a lot of reserves and native mens teams call ourselves the redskins. ohhh wait.

p.s. I sent an email with a list of 10 CREDIBLE native people who consider ourselves to be Redskins fans and some of us are fairly well known in the human rights groups, but we were ignored, and 2 of the people are actually really well known natives lol

It's not just "smart old *******" (censored for this forum), there are Native Americans involved in the name change effort as well. I guess it's convenient to write them all off as self-serving, but I'm betting there are actually people offended by this. There are lawsuits from Native American parents against schools with Redskins as the mascot.

The whole point of contention is how many, I thought. What percentage. Ten? Twenty? One percent? You are far more qualified than me to judge this number, but I highly doubt you've spoken to all 3M Native Americans in this country to gauge their opinions.

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[Om]

Couple of things:

First, LL just illustrated the earlier point. The empirical data provided by credible non-partisan studies and polling has been made public many times. It just never seems to register.

Second, more importantly and far more subjectively, is the question of just how many people, percentage-wise, have to be "offended" by something (good luck quantifying that) before the rest of society has some moral obligation to change? One? Five? Ten? Twenty? What's the magic number?

And then ... even MORE problematically ... who gets to decide what that number is?

Elected officials? The vocal minority? A nationwide poll (ooh! Ooh! We'd get to debate the magic number again!)?

I'm not trying to be flip. Okay maybe a little. Truth is these are not easy questions, nor are there easy answers.

Funny thing is, I think I wrote pretty much this exact same post back on ES about 10 years ago.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Couple of things:

First, LL just illustrated the earlier point. The empirical data provided by credible non-partisan studies and polling has been made public many times. It just never seems to register.

From what I've read, there has been fair criticism of the polls taken on the issue.

The flaw in random and anonymous polls of Native Americans' opinion is that they must rely upon self-identification to select the target group. In an editorial in the Bloomington Herald Times, Steve Russell (an enrolled Cherokee citizen and associate professor of criminal justice at Indiana University), states that both the*Sports Illustrated*and Annenberg's samples of "self-identified Native Americans... includes plenty of people who have nothing to do with Indians".

Public protest started in 1968, it's not new. Yes it becomes more visible when the team does well; that's true of anything. If blue paint was found offensive by small people*, the issue would be amplified if the popularity of blue paint spiked. That's a silly example, but it's the same concept.

*no offense to small people, that was a smurfs joke.

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[fansince62]

Couple of things:

First, LL just illustrated the earlier point. The empirical data provided by credible non-partisan studies and polling has been made public many times. It just never seems to register.

Second, more importantly and far more subjectively, is the question of just how many people, percentage-wise, have to be "offended" by something (good luck quantifying that) before the rest of society has some moral obligation to change? One? Five? Ten? Twenty? What's the magic number?

And then ... even MORE problematically ... who gets to decide what that number is?

Elected officials? The vocal minority? A nationwide poll (ooh! Ooh! We'd get to debate the magic number again!)?

I'm not trying to be flip. Okay maybe a little. Truth is these are not easy questions, nor are there easy answers.

Funny thing is, I think I wrote pretty much this exact same post back on ES about 10 years ago.

thank you OM! pretty much part of what I argued several mos back. simplifying: there is no objective standard.

and with that...like Snagglepuss...I exit stage right!!!!

 

[Om]

It's not surprising that people taking the minority view would find fault with polls that show them to be overwhlemingly so. Meaning we probably ought to define the source(s) and quantify "fair criticism."

We'd certainly expect as much of the Redskins if the polls were strongly skewed the other direction. And please let's not use Twitter as a credible poll source.

 

[Boone]

In other words LL, there is a long history of an incredibly small number if individuals taking issue with the name. You will could likely find similar #'s of people opposed to just about anything you drew out of a hat IMHO.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

It's not surprising that people taking the minority view would find fault with polls that show them to be overwhlemingly so. Meaning we probably ought to define the source(s) and quantify "fair criticism."

We'd certainly expect as much of the Redskins if the polls were strongly skewed the other direction. And please let's not use Twitter as a credible poll source.

In other words LL, there is a long history of an incredibly small number if individuals taking issue with the name. You will could likely find similar #'s of people opposed to just about anything you drew out of a hat IMHO.

Right, but the guy cited is a Native American college graduate; not some random dude. And you could pull many things out of a hat, but most of them would not have a legitimate racial complaint. Whether or not you think it's racist, there is a racial component to it. There's documented proof that Native Americans referred to themselves as red skins and European settlers as white skins.

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[Ax]

:kick_can:

 

[Snydershrugged]

Right, but the guy cited is a Native American college graduate; not some random dude. And you could pull many things out of a hat, but most of them would not have a legitimate racial complaint. Whether or not you think it's racist, there is a racial component to it. There's documented proof that Native Americans referred to themselves as red skins and European settlers as white skins.

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If they referred to it themselves, what exactly is the issue?

 

[Lanky Livingston]

If they referred to it themselves, what exactly is the issue?

Come on, man, I know you're better than this!!

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[Snydershrugged]

Come on, man, I know you're better than this!!

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you just said that Native American are documented as referring to themselves as Redskins. I'm unclear how that supports the name change. I'd rather you answered the question rather than say I should be better.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

you just said that Native American are documented as referring to themselves as Redskins. I'm unclear how that supports the name change. I'd rather you answered the question rather than say I should be better.

If they referred to it themselves, what exactly is the issue?

The issue is the term invokes race... :|

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