Random Commanders Thoughts

[Boone]

I feel like we have so many offensive weapons, he doesn't know who to go to and when. And I do believe it's fair to say that Wentz doesn't have much chemistry with these guys. He seems to see Samuel a lot and of course Brown had the 2 huge plays Sunday. But when it comes to Logan and McLaurin, and McKissic it's like they aren't even out there at times. A lot of that could be not having time to see them due to poor protection, but we definitely don't seem to know how this group is going to mesh or what kind of identity the O might have at some point?

 

[Neophyte]

There is also a long history of QBs needing time to adjust to the Air Coryell offense too. Wentz has never played in anything like this. Maybe it shouldn't be a big surprise that he doesn't "see" all the guys yet.

 

[SkinsNumberOne]

There is also a long history of QBs needing time to adjust to the Air Coryell offense too. Wentz has never played in anything like this. Maybe it shouldn't be a big surprise that he doesn't "see" all the guys yet.

This is a definite possibility. My main problem is that I am a believer in the "when they zig, you zag" mentality. Don't be a lemming.

I see Turner as a major lemming. I see a distinct lack of creativity in his offensive philosophy. I see a lot of statistic-driven decision making and a lot of overdone passing with little balance, and the most annoying part to me is the excuse-making on why they didn't run more every week. It's sickening to listen to at this point. Anyway, I just don't think as a playcaller, we've seen much creativity or balance. That doesn't have anything to do with Wentz's inexperience (other than, I'm sure he can open his playbook for more passing when Wentz is more comfortable). So, I guess he may be able to pass more? Not sure that's possible.

I think the team can improve under Turner from where they are now, as they get more experience and potentially Ron does finally get it through to him to run more. However, as we already saw last year, it's unlikely to last even if it does happen. This team will return to form (or at least the playcaller will) and we will probably return to something less than what we could be. I believe Turner just can't get the best out of his players; that is my read right now, and if Wentz's floor raises, that will just mean a few more Ws than we'd have had otherwise, but not enough for playoffs from what I see.

 

[Chris]

Agreed

To expect a guy coming off two gun shot wounds to be at full speed 3 days after he puts his pads on for the first time is ambitious

to expect it from a Rookie is more difficult

To expect it from a Rookie that hadn't taken a regular season snap yet was an impossible expectation.

I saw his extended use as nothing more than the latest attempt to steer some of the focus away from the on-field performance.

Similar to the accelerated move to debut the black and yellow uniforms the previous week. Smoke and mirrors work for magicians not for NFL coaching.

 

[DieselPwr44]

This is a definite possibility. My main problem is that I am a believer in the "when they zig, you zag" mentality. Don't be a lemming.

I see Turner as a major lemming. I see a distinct lack of creativity in his offensive philosophy. I see a lot of statistic-driven decision making and a lot of overdone passing with little balance, and the most annoying part to me is the excuse-making on why they didn't run more every week. It's sickening to listen to at this point. Anyway, I just don't think as a playcaller, we've seen much creativity or balance. That doesn't have anything to do with Wentz's inexperience (other than, I'm sure he can open his playbook for more passing when Wentz is more comfortable). So, I guess he may be able to pass more? Not sure that's possible.

I think the team can improve under Turner from where they are now, as they get more experience and potentially Ron does finally get it through to him to run more. However, as we already saw last year, it's unlikely to last even if it does happen. This team will return to form (or at least the playcaller will) and we will probably return to something less than what we could be. I believe Turner just can't get the best out of his players; that is my read right now, and if Wentz's floor raises, that will just mean a few more Ws than we'd have had otherwise, but not enough for playoffs from what I see.

Turner is the closest thing they've had to Spurrier since the OBC left.
Runs are throw away plays just to get back to the pass. It's why when Gibson rips off a 10-15 yard run,the very next play is a PA pass and back to back runs are rare.

 

[Boone]

I don't know. When I step back and try to look at it as an NFL observer, and not as a beleagured cynical Washington fan, here is what Turner has faced:

2020: Has to start with Dwayne Haskins and then go to an extremely limited Alex Smith. Very few offensive weapons beyond a couple rookies. Did enough to get to a wildcard game with journeyman off the street at QB.
2021: OL injuries to the extreme and riding Taylor Heinicke under center. Lost Logan Thomas after 6 games. Mckissic and Samuel miss most of the season with injuries.
2022: New QB, new starting WR, changing RB starter, new TEs, really completely different offense, makeshift OL with early injuries.

Those are some pretty challenging scenarios for a relatively young OC. I am not saying Turner is above criticism or that I don't see what a lot of you have verbalized. But we also have to acknowledge he has not had much to work with and it's tough to develop consistency and an offensive identity under those kinds of circumstances. We are tired of losing and being inept and I do think Rivera and Turner and Del Rio have had some very tough barriers to navigate. As a fan I am tired and disappointed and pissed and feel hopeless. But as a rational football observer - I can see some of the challenges that have limited progress.

 

[DieselPwr44]

I don't know. When I step back and try to look at it as an NFL observer, and not as a beleagured cynical Washington fan, here is what Turner has faced:

1. 2020: Has to start with Dwayne Haskins and then go to an extremely limited Alex Smith. Very few offensive weapons beyond a couple rookies. Did enough to get to a wildcard game with journeyman off the street at QB.
2. 2021: OL injuries to the extreme and riding Taylor Heinicke under center. Lost Logan Thomas after 6 games. Mckissic and Samuel miss most of the season with injuries.
3. 2022: New QB, new starting WR, changing RB starter, new TEs, really completely different offense, makeshift OL with early injuries.

Those are some pretty challenging scenarios for a relatively young OC. I am not saying Turner is above criticism or that I don't see what a lot of you have verbalized. But we also have to acknowledge he has not had much to work with and it's tough to develop consistency and an offensive identity under those kinds of circumstances. We are tired of losing and being inept and I do think Rivera and Turner and Del Rio have had some very tough barriers to navigate. As a fan I am tired and disappointed and pissed and feel hopeless. But as a rational football observer - I can see some of the challenges that have limited progress.

Get what you're saying but everyone deals with injuries.
Good organizations figure out a way to at least stay afloat and not fold the tent by November.

I think what some of us get aggravated with is the absence of the ability to recognize players' strengths and scheme towards that.
They can't pass block for nothing but are better at running the ball.Why not lean heavier on that aspect until you either get better at pass blocking or acquire the pieces necessary to do that?
IMO,if you handed Turner lemons,he'd try to make tacos instead of lemonade.

Look at the Patriots.They won with Bailey Zappe at QB,a pure rookie. They didn't put the burden of the whole offense on him,they ran the crap out of the ball and carved out pass plays for him off of it.
Turner seems incapable of doing that here. Yes,Wentz is a vet QB but in a new system. Can he not use Gibson to take some of the burden off of him?

Seems like common sense to me but I'm just a dumb old fan watching from the couch. What do I know?? lol

 

[Boone]

Get what you're saying but everyone deals with injuries.
Good organizations figure out a way to at least stay afloat and not fold the tent by November.

I think what some of us get aggravated with is the absence of the ability to recognize players' strengths and scheme towards that.
They can't pass block for nothing but are better at running the ball.Why not lean heavier on that aspect until you either get better at pass blocking or acquire the pieces necessary to do that?
IMO,if you handed Turner lemons,he'd try to make tacos instead of lemonade.

Look at the Patriots.They won with Bailey Zappe at QB,a pure rookie. They didn't put the burden of the whole offense on him,the ran the crap out of the ball and carved out pass plays for him off of it.
Turner seems incapable of doing that here. Yes,Wentz is a vet QB but in a new system. Can he not use Gibson to take some of the burden off of him?

Seems like common sense to me but I'm just a dumb old fan watching from the couch. What do I know?? lol

Like I said - I get all the criticisms. Last week's revelation that Turner doesn't believe in allowing audibles at the LOS - that infuriated me. On the 'everyone deals with injuries' thing - sure - it's an issue for almost all NFL teams, but it's also a huge factor in whether teams win or lose Take Patrick Mahommes out and tell me the Chiefs are a certain playoff team, or look at the Cowboys without Prescott (this year notwithstanding) for example. So OL and offensive skill position injuries DO have a big impact. Pointing out 'exceptions' like Zappe or even Heinicke at times doesn't alter the overall trend. Stay healthy on offense and you'll win more, suffer key injuries and it gets tough. The fact that 'everyone has them' doesn't lessen the impact on any given team when critical injuries like being on your 3rd string center in Week 4 do happen.

I'm not making excuses, just trying to add some balance.

When we say 'we can't pass block' - I can point out who it is doing the pass blocking.
When we say 'we abandon the run' - I can point out we're starting 14-20 points down most days by the 2nd half.
When we say 'Turner's offenses suck' - I can point out the talent (or lack thereof) he's had to work with (both on the roster and what's been available in season).

There are other things going on besides Turner's ability to call plays and whether he's stubborn, clueless, however we want to characterize him. It's not been a great situation for him. I think we should acknowledge that alongside all the criticism.

 

[Chris]

The Titans last season set an NFL record of 91 players starting at some point during the season due to injuries (including Derrick Henry) yet were the #1 seed in the AFC. They are on a very similar path this season, as well, injury-wise.

Typical? Of course not. Possible? Looks like it. 😉

I wonder how many times last year that Mike Vrabel used injuries as an excuse.

This team has a coaching issue. This team has a roster management issue. That issue is that, as a collective group, they are not very good.

The correct answer to Matt Parris’ question on Monday to RR about falling behind the other 3 teams in the NFCE was ‘coaching and roster building’ not ‘quarterback’.

 

[Boone]

We won the division in one of the most injury-plagued seasons ever with a walk-on QB. With the coaches we are gutting

Yep - those things happen.

I don't disagree with your overall assessment.

I've been in management/leadership most of my life. All I am saying is that when things are bad, the easiest thing in the world is to blame-storm. Fire whoevers 'responsible'. And sometimes you have to do that. But you don't do it without looking at every factor because success or failure does not happen in a vacuum - it's the culmination of a lot of things. Sometimes the most impactful thing is you have the wrong leadership. Maybe we are at that point. But it's reasonable to point out the obstacles they have had to try and overcome. And we haven't even mentioned the biggest obstacle of them all.

 

[Chris]

We won with a losing record in a shitty division against a slew of quarterbacks that most couldn’t remember now with money at stake. But, yes, with a walk-on QB. 😉

All of that resulted in a staff and roster that believed that they had actually accomplished something noteworthy. We all know how that turned out. Fool’s gold.

I have also been in leadership positions throughout my life since 21 years of age and had the opportunity to witness and work under a score of great individual leaders. The one common trait they all had was that they accepted the blame when their organizations struggled. Right or wrong. They didn’t publicly out the rank and file.

The first time any coach from this team says anything about their own shortcomings, it will be…the first time.

 

[Boone]

That's not actually accurate Chris. I've heard Rivera, Turner, Del Rio all say - repeatedly - that they've got to coach better, that it starts at the top, etc...

I assume you're referring to the 'Quarterback' comment. I think that's being overblown. Rivera is under tremendous pressure at 1-4 in season 3 (as he should be) and the media smells blood in the water. He has never been particularly good thinking on his feet and although none of us knows exactly what he meant, whatever it was he did a poor job of verbalizing it. His follow-up explanation was that he intended to say other teams are having success because they don't have 'new' QBs (although Dallas does). The idea he was throwing Wentz under the bus seems like an odd assertion to me, given Wentz probably played his best game of the year against the Titans?

I'm not happy with where we are, and obviously the coaching staff owns that, just suggesting it's always a little more complicated than 'we're a failure and these guys are to blame'.

 

[Neophyte]

I get it, Boone. Truly. You are trying to be fair and I love you for that. I am usually guilty of it too.

However....

2020 - 60/40 pass/run ratio
2021 - 55/45 pass/run ratio
2022 - 65/35 pass/run ratio

Titans - 24th in the league against the run, 3rd against the pass - in a game we never trailed by more than 7 pts and lead at HT, we ran 12 times and passed 43 times
Eagles - 5th in sacks, 4th in QB hurries, 4th in QB pressures - we ran 19 times and dropped back 46 times and it's probably fair to say that we were so far behind on the scoreboard because Carson was on his ass the whole first half

We have picked 2 RBs in the first 3 rounds under Ron. That is twice the number of players we have picked at any other position in those rounds.

This staff has yet to define our identity.
This staff fails to analyze the other team and game plan for their strengths/weaknesses.
This staff consistently fails to put our players in the best position to win 1v1 or a game.

This is year 3. We should know who we are on both sides of the ball. We should be drafting and game planning accordingly.

We are not.

 

[Boone]

I get it, Boone. Truly. You are trying to be fair and I love you for that. I am usually guilty of it too.

However....

2020 - 60/40 pass/run ratio
2021 - 55/45 pass/run ratio
2022 - 65/35 pass/run ratio

Titans - 24th in the league against the run, 3rd against the pass - in a game we never trailed by more than 7 pts and lead at HT, we ran 12 times and passed 43 times
Eagles - 5th in sacks, 4th in QB hurries, 4th in QB pressures - we ran 19 times and dropped back 46 times and it's probably fair to say that we were so far behind on the scoreboard because Carson was on his ass the whole first half

We have picked 2 RBs in the first 3 rounds under Ron. That is twice the number of players we have picked at any other position in those rounds.

This staff has yet to define our identity.
This staff fails to analyze the other team and game plan for their strengths/weaknesses.
This staff consistently fails to put our players in the best position to win 1v1 or a game.

This is year 3. We should know who we are on both sides of the ball. We should be drafting and game planning accordingly.

We are not.

I'm with you on running more - although again, that is not in and of itself a guarantee of success. I think you may have misread the Titans defensive rankings though. The Titans are pretty stout against the run but terrible against the pass. I mentioned on the pod, contrary to popular opinion this might've been the week to go Air Coryell. You saw the deep ball success.

I agree that Scott Turner cost us this game. I'd just argue it wasn't as simple as 'we didn't run enough'. 1/11 on 3rd down. That's all you need to see. Now - it's fair to argue that had we run it effectively and consistently, we might've been in a lot more makeable 3rd down situations. That's possible. But the Titans were super vulnerable against the pass, so not sure passing was our issue.

I think I've made it clear that I'm not happy with where we are and that coaching has a lot to do with it - as it always does. But it's not just coaching right now. My opinion.

 

[Chris]

I will trust you if you say that they have. If I have heard it, it must of blown by by ears and interpreted by my tiny brain as a soft-pedaling acceptance for all of the team’s consistent short-comings. All I ever register is individual players missing assignments, individual players not communicating, individual players not playing as a group, ad infinitum.

Jamin Davis was a very popular whipping boy by Rivera AND Del Rio. I never once heard that either of them bear any responsibility for initially putting him in a position that he wasn’t fitted for.

The conundrum for me is this: what has Rivera ever accomplished as a head coach that gives him any benefit of a doubt? He has never been a great coach. His greatest success came only when he had quite possibly the two best offensive weapons in his conference on the same team. Other than that? I couldn’t make a case. Solid man though, no doubt. Probably a good president/culture builder. HC or Gm? No thank you.

 

[Primus Porcus]

I get it, Boone. Truly. You are trying to be fair and I love you for that. I am usually guilty of it too.

However....

2020 - 60/40 pass/run ratio
2021 - 55/45 pass/run ratio
2022 - 65/35 pass/run ratio

Titans - 24th in the league against the run, 3rd against the pass - in a game we never trailed by more than 7 pts and lead at HT, we ran 12 times and passed 43 times
Eagles - 5th in sacks, 4th in QB hurries, 4th in QB pressures - we ran 19 times and dropped back 46 times and it's probably fair to say that we were so far behind on the scoreboard because Carson was on his ass the whole first half

We have picked 2 RBs in the first 3 rounds under Ron. That is twice the number of players we have picked at any other position in those rounds.

This staff has yet to define our identity.
This staff fails to analyze the other team and game plan for their strengths/weaknesses.
This staff consistently fails to put our players in the best position to win 1v1 or a game.

This is year 3. We should know who we are on both sides of the ball. We should be drafting and game planning accordingly.

We are not.

These are where I'm zeroing in on. The ironic thing about the Titans game was we were gashing them deep in the pass game, and they were shutting us down against the run...

Scott Turner has to change his mindset.. The last 3 season's we're seeing the same game plan across all of these hurdles. There's little to no adaptation. Turner has had A TON to overcome, but the problem is, as the rocks keep breaking away from the mountain, he keeps grabbing onto the same type of rocks, instead of adjusting and adapating around the hurdles.

 

[Neophyte]

You are right, Boone - I had the table inverted for pass defense. The Titans are 30th in the league. My bad.

I don't think the injuries on the offensive line make much difference, other than Rollier. The problem there is that Norwell and Turner look like they should be backups at best right now, if not retired.

Robinson not starting the season didn't keep us from running with Gibson, McKissic, or Williams. But we didn't.

There are no excuses for a guy who has been an offensive coordinator for 5 years now to be this lousy at it and still have his job. And not just have his job but be on a fat, extended contract to boot, having proved nothing.

 

[Chris]

That's not actually accurate Chris. I've heard Rivera, Turner, Del Rio all say - repeatedly - that they've got to coach better, that it starts at the top, etc...

I assume you're referring to the 'Quarterback' comment. I think that's being overblown. Rivera is under tremendous pressure at 1-4 in season 3 (as he should be) and the media smells blood in the water. He has never been particularly good thinking on his feet and although none of us knows exactly what he meant, whatever it was he did a poor job of verbalizing it. His follow-up explanation was that he intended to say other teams are having success because they don't have 'new' QBs (although Dallas does). The idea he was throwing Wentz under the bus seems like an odd assertion to me, given Wentz probably played his best game of the year against the Titans?

I'm not happy with where we are, and obviously the coaching staff owns that, just suggesting it's always a little more complicated than 'we're a failure and these guys are to blame'.

For the record- I don’t believe that he was throwing Wentz under the bus. If Wentz gets run over by a bus Rivera will be too because he will be handcuffed to him.

Also FTR- I take no exception to his comments as related to Dallas (Rush is no newbie to their system) or Philly. But the NYG? Really? The difference is coaching and roster construction. Period.

 

[Boone]

I will trust you if you say that they have. If I have heard it, it must of blown by by ears and interpreted by my tiny brain as a soft-pedaling acceptance for all of the team’s consistent short-comings. All I ever register is individual players missing assignments, individual players not communicating, individual players not playing as a group, ad infinitum.

Jamin Davis was a very popular whipping boy by Rivera AND Del Rio. I never once heard that either of them bear any responsibility for initially putting him in a position that he wasn’t fitted for.

The conundrum for me is this: what has Rivera ever accomplished as a head coach that gives him any benefit of a doubt? He has never been a great coach. His greatest success came only when he had quite possibly the two best offensive weapons in his conference on the same team. Other than that? I couldn’t make a case. Solid man though, no doubt. Probably a good president/culture builder. HC or Gm? No thank you.

I agree, it would be better to hear 'This coaching staff isn't getting the job done - starting with me' and leave it at that. That's what perenially successful guys like Mike Tomlin say. If a HC says anything else, it is going to be seen as deflection and excuses (whether it's intended as such or not).

I agree on Jamin Davis - and I don't. I don't like players getting called out publicly. I really don't like what a HC or Coordinator is actually thinking to be put out there publicly. It's not necessary or usually productive. It is interesting that it was only after Davis WAS called out publicly that he started performing though? I would be more worried about that if I felt like this staff did that kind of thing routinely. I haven't really seen that but maybe I'm not focusing enough on it.

Rivera is probably the best we could attract, and only because he'd just been summarily dismissed. As far as his record in Carolina, 4 seasons out of 9 in the playoffs. In 3 of those appearances, they won at least 1 playoff game, and of course the one Super Bowl appearance. That's not dominating, but it's a damn site better than what our previous coaches could muster over that stretch. Maybe it was about the talent on those rosters, you may be right, but you can say that about almost any consistent playoff team.

I don't think Rivera is a great coach. I didn't believe he was in Carolina and I don't believe he is now. I tend to think if we stick with him, we may eventually win more than we lose - and sadly, right now, I'd take that. Blowing it up has not helped us, so at least for the next 2 seasons, I'd prefer we ride it out.

 

[Boone]

You are right, Boone - I had the table inverted for pass defense. The Titans are 30th in the league. My bad.

I don't think the injuries on the offensive line make much difference, other than Rollier. The problem there is that Norwell and Turner look like they should be backups at best right now, if not retired.

Robinson not starting the season didn't keep us from running with Gibson, McKissic, or Williams. But we didn't.

There are no excuses for a guy who has been an offensive coordinator for 5 years now to be this lousy at it and still have his job. And not just have his job but be on a fat, extended contract to boot, having proved nothing.

Agree that we've downgraded talent on the OL aside from injuries. Having an inept center is a huge detriment though. But again Bob - one man's 'excuses' are another man's 'mitigating factors'. How does one differentiate the two? Saying 'it's year 3' isn't good enough - a lot of negative shit can and has happened over those first 2 years which was not even remotely within Turner's control. And whether he's on his last year or the first of a new contract really isn't relevant.

Anyway, it sounds like I'm defending the coaching staff. I'm really not (see suicidal 'Familiar' thread). I'm just saying it's more complicated than 'our coaches suck' imho. Doesn't mean I'm not cursing them at times and don't want to smash my TV routinely during games.