PFT: Gruden says the “clock’s ticking” on Griffin

[MartinC]

There was one play that Helu was in the backfield and he went to chip up the middle... where there was no rush. Aldon smith got around Moses and blew up Griff from behind. Is that an instance where Griffin needs to change the protection at the line when he saw where the pressure could be coming from? I couldn't tell if Helu was on a delayed leak out to the flat, or if he was there for help in blocking and when nobody came up the middle he tried to make himself available as a check down.

I think thats the last sack your talking about. Its hard to be definitive about these plays without knowing exactly what the play call was or the blocking rules are for the called protection. However normally I would expect a back to have a check release in that situation i.e. he checks whether a key defender he is matched with rushes, if that defender rushes he blocks him if he drops into coverage the back releases into a pattern. Normally you have big on big - so your o'Line block their D'Line and in a 3-4 the two OLBs as well. Helu probably had a check on one of the safeties or the inside 'backer.

Now this is where game planning comes in. Its not rocket science to think that Moses might have some issues in obvious passing situations with Aldon Smith. So what I would have done at a minimum is have Helu release outside and chip Smith on his way into a pattern in the flat rather than releasing up the middle even if the guy he was reading was in the middle of the field. I'd also have lined Paul up outside Moses and had him chip Smith as well as he released. That might compromise what patterns you can run with Helu and Paul but thats not as much of a compromise as having your QB sacked within 2 seconds of the snap. I don't think thats a protection Griffin can change, its part of the play call, I also don't think Griffin calls the protections, we have Lich do that from centre.

 

[Primus Porcus]

I think thats the last sack your talking about. Its hard to be definitive about these plays without knowing exactly what the play call was or the blocking rules are for the called protection. However normally I would expect a back to have a check release in that situation i.e. he checks whether a key defender he is matched with rushes, if that defender rushes he blocks him if he drops into coverage the back releases into a pattern. Normally you have big on big - so your o'Line block their D'Line and in a 3-4 the two OLBs as well. Helu probably had a check on one of the safeties or the inside 'backer.

Now this is where game planning comes in. Its not rocket science to think that Moses might have some issues in obvious passing situations with Aldon Smith. So what I would have done at a minimum is have Helu release outside and chip Smith on his way into a pattern in the flat rather than releasing up the middle even if the guy he was reading was in the middle of the field. I'd also have lined Paul up outside Moses and had him chip Smith as well as he released. That might compromise what patterns you can run with Helu and Paul but thats not as much of a compromise as having your QB sacked within 2 seconds of the snap. I don't think thats a protection Griffin can change, its part of the play call, I also don't think Griffin calls the protections, we have Lich do that from centre.

I know the C is responsible for the line but is he responsible for the RBs too?

I'm just asking because I can't say I know 100% one way or the other.

 

[fansince62]

Every presser I've watched this season, he's always said "us coaches and play callers need to do better" or something to that effect.

Quit Jason Reiding him....

bubba...saying and doing are two wildly different things!

 

[MartinC]

I know the C is responsible for the line but is he responsible for the RBs too?

I'm just asking because I can't say I know 100% one way or the other.

Yep - the protection call includes the backs and TE's. Some teams have the QB call the protections but most have the centre do it. The QB designates the 'Mike" (middle linebacker) and then the centre calls the protection from there.

 

[fansince62]

What made Cousins successful against the woeful Jacksonville Jaguars while Griffin was downright horrible against an equally bad Tampa Bay club?

A history of an organization completely eff'ing up the most talented QB it has seen on all planes: physically, mentally, emotionally. RGIII is done, toast, gone. I'd bench him now so he doesn't get hurt worse than he already is. I'd let him go at the end of the season.

I profoundly hope RGIII then hooks up with a team/coach like Philly/Chip Kelly that provides an o-line, talent management and teaching to the point where Griffin is rejuvenated and returns to kick this organization's arse year after year. this is a dysfunctional organization that cannot plan its way to successful outcomes if its life depended upon it. it's a way-point for aging vets cashing in for the last time and a burial ground for fresh talent.

RGIII is done. The fanbase, per the norm, loves the backup. let's repeat the pattern then. put Colt in - a starter released by Cleveland, a BACKUP released just last year by the very same 49ers. no signals there! we'll get better play because Griffin has been beaten and destroyed. but we'll never get beyond 7-9/8-8 with the Cousins/McCoys of the world. we're repeating the same patterns of the last two decades. until we get a real QB franchise QB - especially with a coach who favors the pass over the run - we're never, ever going to have a competitive team when it comes to the playoffs. the best we can hope for following this strategy is a Dalton type QB.

this team has deep, systemic issues that need to be fixed. until they are....episodes like Griffin are just a rewind of the same soap opera plot.

 

[McD5]

A history of an organization completely eff'ing up the most talented QB it has seen on all planes: physically, mentally, emotionally. RGIII is done, toast, gone. I'd bench him now so he doesn't get hurt worse than he already is. I'd let him go at the end of the season.

I profoundly hope RGIII then hooks up with a team/coach like Philly/Chip Kelly that provides an o-line, talent management and teaching to the point where Griffin is rejuvenated and returns to kick this organization's arse year after year. this is a dysfunctional organization that cannot plan its way to successful outcomes if its life depended upon it. it's a way-point for aging vets cashing in for the last time and a burial ground for fresh talent.

RGIII is done. The fanbase, per the norm, loves the backup. let's repeat the pattern then. put Colt in - a starter released by Cleveland, a BACKUP released just last year by the very same 49ers. no signals there! we'll get better play because Griffin has been beaten and destroyed. but we'll never get beyond 7-9/8-8 with the Cousins/McCoys of the world. we're repeating the same patterns of the last two decades. until we get a real QB franchise QB - especially with a coach who favors the pass over the run - we're never, ever going to have a competitive team when it comes to the playoffs. the best we can hope for following this strategy is a Dalton type QB.

this team has deep, systemic issues that need to be fixed. until they are....episodes like Griffin are just a rewind of the same soap opera plot.

This is correct, except for the RG3 going anywhere and winning anything part.

Here's where we are. RG3 is Tim Tebow or Jason Campbell. He's done.

Here's what's going to happen now. We will let RG3 die for another half or maybe even an entire game, and then he'll be done in DC.

That will give everyone enough time to realize that neither Colt nor Cousins are the answer, and we'll begin to take a serious look at Jameis Winston. The consideration of Jameis will be met with the expected comments. "I'll quit being a fan......etc." The regular nonsense. Those who thought Shanahan or RG3 were good will resist at first, and then common sense will set in.

50% chance or greater that we take Jameis in this coming draft. That number will bump around depending upon how well our other QBs do.

 

[Primus Porcus]

No, no, Boone. It's Robert's fault for not calling the right blocking scheme...

I was wrong when I mentioned Griffin needing to adjust the protection based on the defensive alignment. For some reason I thought the QB made that call at the line regarding the RBs.

It's absolutely frustrating that we left Aldon Smith 1 on 1 with pretty much any linemen, especially a Rookie LT getting his first start. I was wrong.

 

[Henry]

Jameis Winston ain't saving this team. QB isn't the problem.

Not the 20-year problem anyway.

 

[McD5]

Well, barring somehow taping Dan using racial slurs, I'm not sure any one individual can do it alone.

Just have to focus on what we can, and make improvements one step at a time. Or three steps at a time would be great too.

 

[MartinC]

Jameis Winston ain't saving this team. QB isn't the problem.

Not the 20-year problem anyway.

If we are done with RGIII at the end of this year - and i think that would be premature personally - there is not a QB worth a top 10 pick this year IMO let alone the top 5 pick we are likely to have. There are some good O'line and D'line prospects though. As for Winston he is a car crash waiting to happen IMO and I'd quite like it to happen to someone else for a change.

 

[Henry]

Well, barring somehow taping Dan using racial slurs, I'm not sure any one individual can do it alone.

Just have to focus on what we can, and make improvements one step at a time. Or three steps at a time would be great too.

Griffin was three steps. Dude was a bona-fide Franchise Quarterback. He took a 4-12 team, strapped it to his back and won a division.

The Washington Redskins snapped him half, shoved him to the turf and then stomped him into the ground. And now people are begging the team to start Colt effing McCoy in his place.

You think Jameis WINSTON will last here? Not in a million years. That guy is a train wreck waiting to happen. On a very stable team he might his crap together. Here he's a disaster.

This team needs an enema. I'm sure Bruce Allen is a great guy and fun at parties, but he was hired to lure Shanahan here and retained because his last name is Allen. That kinda crap. has. to. stop. And I don't think it ever will.

 

[Primus Porcus]

If we are done with RGIII at the end of this year - and i think that would be premature personally - there is not a QB worth a top 10 pick this year IMO let alone the top 5 pick we are likely to have. There are some good O'line and D'line prospects though. As for Winston he is a car crash waiting to happen IMO and I'd quite like it to happen to someone else for a change.

IF they have decided to go in a different direction, we need to find a qb, whether that be on this roster or elsewhere, that is the TYPE of player we want to fit the scheme. They dont have to be the future, but if we're going to take this team in a new direction, put someone back there that fits the scheme were going to go in. That way we're at least building in a direction. If Colt fits the mold of the ideal player in the scheme, he needs to play, even if we pick up a qb later. Install the scheme and maintain it...

 

[fansince62]

This is correct, except for the RG3 going anywhere and winning anything part.

Here's where we are. RG3 is Tim Tebow or Jason Campbell. He's done.

Here's what's going to happen now. We will let RG3 die for another half or maybe even an entire game, and then he'll be done in DC.

That will give everyone enough time to realize that neither Colt nor Cousins are the answer, and we'll begin to take a serious look at Jameis Winston. The consideration of Jameis will be met with the expected comments. "I'll quit being a fan......etc." The regular nonsense. Those who thought Shanahan or RG3 were good will resist at first, and then common sense will set in.

50% chance or greater that we take Jameis in this coming draft. That number will bump around depending upon how well our other QBs do.

don't know.

what I do know is this: it's samo, samo. we're back in the same canoe without the proverbial QB paddle (to mix metaphors). a draftee will take the duty 2-3 years to develop. by that time...other established players ar gone....and....you haven't had the opportunity IN THIS UPCOMING DRAFT....to raft the best talent at...say...o-line/d-line or safety.

no matter how you cut it. we're in for more of the same. at least for those who care about championships and what this franchise was at one time.

 

[fansince62]

IF they have decided to go in a different direction, we need to find a qb, whether that be on this roster or elsewhere, that is the TYPE of player we want to fit the scheme. They dont have to be the future, but if we're going to take this team in a new direction, put someone back there that fits the scheme were going to go in. That way we're at least building in a direction. If Colt fits the mold of the ideal player in the scheme, he needs to play, even if we pick up a qb later. Install the scheme and maintain it...

the scheme...with DJax....is clearly to go downfield....deep. there is no QB on this roster right now to execute that part of the scheme.

 

[fansince62]

Griffin was three steps. Dude was a bona-fide Franchise Quarterback. He took a 4-12 team, strapped it to his back and won a division.

The Washington Redskins snapped him half, shoved him to the turf and then stomped him into the ground. And now people are begging the team to start Colt effing McCoy in his place.

You think Jameis WINSTON will last here? Not in a million years. That guy is a train wreck waiting to happen. On a very stable team he might his crap together. Here he's a disaster.

This team needs an enema. I'm sure Bruce Allen is a great guy and fun at parties, but he was hired to lure Shanahan here and retained because his last name is Allen. That kinda crap. has. to. stop. And I don't think it ever will.

Henry....I wish the best T-Giving for you and family.

exactimundo.

 

[MartinC]

IF they have decided to go in a different direction, we need to find a qb, whether that be on this roster or elsewhere, that is the TYPE of player we want to fit the scheme. They dont have to be the future, but if we're going to take this team in a new direction, put someone back there that fits the scheme were going to go in. That way we're at least building in a direction. If Colt fits the mold of the ideal player in the scheme, he needs to play, even if we pick up a qb later. Install the scheme and maintain it...

Totally agree. Winston is a similar type of QB to RGIII but with a worse skill set IMO - if you want a pocket based passing game based on WCO rhythm passing thats not Winston. Its likely someone like Sam Bradford or even Mark Sanchez will be available and although both have got question marks I think both would be a better fit for what Jay is trying to do while we build the Oline and defense via the draft.

 

[Primus Porcus]

the scheme...with DJax....is clearly to go downfield....deep. there is no QB on this roster right now to execute that part of the scheme.

There's a lot more to it then that, but yeah, I dont think there is currently a QB on the roster that is the future of the franchise.

My point was more to the idea that we cant play this same game of QB adaptation. Griffin is not built for Gruden's style of offense. I dont want to see us bring in another player who doesnt fit the scheme. Let's address a large part of the rest of the deficiencies that hinder the execution of the current scheme before we start talking about what our QB is supposed to be doing. All the while with a QB back there that has an understanding of what the Offense is trying to execute to help the rest of the team develop. It comes back to what i was talking about addressing the scheme or addressing the players first.

 

[Boone]

Maybe Brunell can come back?

 

[McD5]

Totally agree. Winston is a similar type of QB to RGIII but with a worse skill set IMO - if you want a pocket based passing game based on WCO rhythm passing thats not Winston. Its likely someone like Sam Bradford or even Mark Sanchez will be available and although both have got question marks I think both would be a better fit for what Jay is trying to do while we build the Oline and defense via the draft.

Good Afternoon Martin. You make a good point about Winston maybe not being a fit for the WCO. Although, I wouldn't call Andy Dalton a prototypical WCO QB either.

I do disagree that his skills are equal to or less than RG3. I believe they are much better, especially due to operating in a pro-style offense, and in reading secondary coverages his entire life.

6'4, 240 and no injury history also works in his favor. And he can take a hit.

I'd liken him most closely to Ben Roethlisberger (waits for sexual assault jokes lol). Like Ben, he has a strong arm and can come in and win you some games.

My only concern is his age. Not in physical size of course, as he'd immediately be one of the biggest and strongest QBs in the league.

But I can't recall a sophomore that has come out and led a franchise before. There may have been one, but it's a concern.

 

[MartinC]

Good Afternoon Martin. You make a good point about Winston maybe not being a fit for the WCO. Although, I wouldn't call Andy Dalton a prototypical WCO QB either.

I do disagree that his skills are equal to or less than RG3. I believe they are much better, especially due to operating in a pro-style offense, and in reading secondary coverages his entire life.

6'4, 240 and no injury history also works in his favor. And he can take a hit.

I'd liken him most closely to Ben Roethlisberger (waits for sexual assault jokes lol). Like Ben, he has a strong arm and can come in and win you some games.

My only concern is his age. Not in physical size of course, as he'd immediately be one of the biggest and strongest QBs in the league.

But I can't recall a sophomore that has come out and led a franchise before. There may have been one, but it's a concern.

I think the Big Ben comparison is quite a good one in terms of skill set. I'm not going to pretend I have scouted Winston or even spent that much time watching him but what I have seen is that he is a guy with a good but not great arm, good but not great mobility and good but not great accuracy. Coming out RGIII was great in all these 3 areas - much better at any rate than Winston. What Winston has over RGIII is he is good in the pocket and good at working through reads in the pocket. He is essentially a pocket passer who can move if he has to. He's not a good rhythm passer though - he's like Big Ben he will stand in there shake off a hit move around in the pocket and then hit someone who breaks open. Not a good skill set for the WCO - or our O-Line come to that!

But its the off field stuff which really scares me. This is a guy with some HUGE red flags and maturity issues - I don't see them getting better when he becomes a millionaire at such a young age and all the distractions that brings.

I would not even have him on my draft board for the top half of the 1st round.