Penalties

[Gooseneck]

I remember George Allen had a former NFL ref at practice calling penalties. would that help us.

 

[method man]

I think penalties happen every single play and the refs selectively choose in many cases whether to call a penalty or not. I think we've had some bad luck with crews with bad reputations recently.

Some of it has been sloppy however such as Sainristil lining up offsides on a FG attempt

 

[Discobob]

I think penalties happen every single play and the refs selectively choose in many cases whether to call a penalty or not. I think we've had some bad luck with crews with bad reputations recently.

Some of it has been sloppy however such as Sainristil lining up offsides on a FG attempt

We just need to control the "automatic" penalties, the judgement call ones are unpredictable.

Get rid of the false start, offsides, delay of game, illegal man down field, too many men in the huddle type of penalties...

 

[Kel Varnsen]

It’s difficult because certain crews are known to call certain penalties more than other penalties. Teams know that, but avoiding that type of penalty can be difficult. I agree they need to clean up the self inflicted penalties such as lining up offsides, false start, illegal motion, illegal shift, and delay of game.

I won’t say I’m fine with penalties, but I have more understanding for penalties in play where you are trying to gain an advantage or keeping the other guy from having an advantage. Most players push the rules as far as they can go before getting caught. I don’t want a team that is so afraid of penalties, they don’t cover, block, or tackle. So I can live with some penalties happening, but they need to avoid the stupid ones and the post foul penalties as well.

 

[DCSkinz2023]

I said this in the gameday chat but the biggest penalty was when Atlanta bailed us out on 3rd and 22 with the D holding call. Before that, our offense looked anemic, but after we got that first down, the offense rolled for the rest of the game. It's odd how little things like that can change the momentum.

 

[mistertim]

I think penalties happen every single play and the refs selectively choose in many cases whether to call a penalty or not. I think we've had some bad luck with crews with bad reputations recently.

Some of it has been sloppy however such as Sainristil lining up offsides on a FG attempt

Eh, we've had some bad luck, but every team does. Every single fanbase is convinced that their team is selectively picked on by refs. The vast majority of the penalties on Sunday were legit calls. We need to be more disciplined. Every teams gets ticky-tack calls sometimes. The best way to defend against that is to not commit stupid ones that are clear fouls. We failed miserably on that front vs Atlanta.

 

[DogofWar1]

Eh, we've had some bad luck, but every team does. Every single fanbase is convinced that their team is selectively picked on by refs. The vast majority of the penalties on Sunday were legit calls. We need to be more disciplined. Every teams gets ticky-tack calls sometimes. The best way to defend against that is to not commit stupid ones that are clear fouls. We failed miserably on that front vs Atlanta.

Well we definitely were through the 2000's and early 2010's and you'll never convince me otherwise.

 

[Boone]

Eh, we've had some bad luck, but every team does. Every single fanbase is convinced that their team is selectively picked on by refs. The vast majority of the penalties on Sunday were legit calls. We need to be more disciplined. Every teams gets ticky-tack calls sometimes. The best way to defend against that is to not commit stupid ones that are clear fouls. We failed miserably on that front vs Atlanta.

This - but with one caveat. The elite teams in the NFL get preferential treatment from officiating crews. I don't know why, but it's just too common to see to ignore. Kansas City being the prime example. I have never seen a team get bailed out so often by the officials as does KC during the Mahommes/Andy Reid era. You lay a finger on Mahommes and you are going to get an unnecessary roughness call and it's almost automatic. By comparison, our QBs have gotten repeatedly mauled over the years with no flag in site.

Thre may be a little of your point mixed in with my take here (ie... 'every single fanbase is convinced') but I do think certain crews are star-struck and deferential to the heavyweight coaches and star power on elite teams and favor them, whether consciously or subconsciously.

I have a couple of thoughts on penalties in general beyond that.

First of all, having opened Pandora's box on promoting betting and gambling on the NFL, it is only a matter of time before we see scandals involving referees influencing game or statistical outcomes. It may already be happening and I think as erratic and bad as the officiating sometimes is even in the absence of that, it would be very difficult to detect/prove.

Second of all, when it comes to penalties, there is a broad spectrum and range when describing them. As several have said, there is probably a 'technical' penalty on just about every play, so it's not easy for officials to balance holding players to the rules but also not becoming inordinately intrusive into the game. I think the new coaching regime's philosophy favors aggressiveness over almost all other qualities, so they are going to be more forgiving of mistakes made because a player is trying to execute their job violently and with speed, such as a borderline offsides on an over-aggressive pass rush attempt. And as a fan, I can accept those more easily than I can mental mistakes.

Not to pick on Sam Cosmi, but he seems to make a lot of critical mental mistakes. Being offsides on a key down on offense in your home stadium - there is almost no excuse for it. You know the snapcount (or should) and if nothing else, look to the center if necessary. Cosmi makes mental mistakes, ones where it appears his 'attention' drifted, way more than he should. Those are the ones that I find hard to take.

But I guess ultimately, no matter how hard the NFL tries to remove the 'human element' from the game, it will always be there - whether we're talking players or officials - and we fans will be bitching about it for perpetuity.

 

[burgold]

One thing I have been wanting to discuss is the super-late substitution by defenses which necessitates a time out or delay of game. There should be limits on how long a defense has to respond if they want to change personnel. Several times a game, I see the refs holding us up 'til there are three seconds left on the clock. I saw a horrible version of it in the Illinois vs. South Carolina bowl game yesterday. Where South Carolina set up a play, Illinois sent in players, changed its mind sent in a group of players, then sent in another group of players who practically walked onto the field. When there was no time on play clock a timeout was called and the Illinois smiled like a Cheshire Cat while the SC coach was livid.

That kind of gamesmanship is below the belt. It should be a penalty on the defense.

 

[Boone]

I have also noticed the referee standing between the center and QB multiple times per game preventing the offense from going up tempo because the defense is not set. I don't recall seeing that prior to this year and I agree it's absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Eh, we've had some bad luck, but every team does. Every single fanbase is convinced that their team is selectively picked on by refs. The vast majority of the penalties on Sunday were legit calls. We need to be more disciplined. Every teams gets ticky-tack calls sometimes. The best way to defend against that is to not commit stupid ones that are clear fouls. We failed miserably on that front vs Atlanta.

Great post. As I watched the game last night a Falcons OL was called for the exact same thing Cosmi was called for, pushing a guy who had lost his balance down was called holding. But we only remember the Cosmi call.

I'm glad to see this thread, I had meant to comment on the penalties earlier. This team at times commits a lot of stupid, unnecessary penalties and that needs to be cleaned up.

 

[DWinzit]

Discipline is key, cut down on the dumb decisions. Be self aware. Also be aware of the game officials tendencies. That alone can cut down on a couple flags in certain games.

 

[UK Skins]

Great thread. We've just had a soccer ref sacked here for alleged bias against a team. Given the small margins in NFL games, something like that would have huge ramifications for the sport.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

One thing about officiating, it's comically difficult. I am actually a certified USA Swim Official. I officiate different levels of swim meets for kids through 18 years old year round. One of the roles I officiate is something called a "stroke and turn judge." This judge typically stands at the end of the pool, and has "jurisdiction" of 2-4 lanes for half the length of the pool. They are watching a set of 2-4 swimmers, who are doing the same stroke, and checking to make sure the stroke mechanics are legal.

I cannot tell you how fast things happen, especially with the older, better swimmers. And once it has happened, it's over. There is no replay. And you never know when a violation is going to take place. And even some of the best swimmers will have a violation completely out of nowhere. We had an 18 year old swimmer who was REALLY good have a complete brain cramp and mess up a turn out of nowhere last year. I had another kid who won a race, and reversed the order of 2 strokes of the individual medley. But won the freaking race anyway.

I can only imagine how difficult it is to officiate football. For swimming, the parameters are defined, the judge is (for the most part) stationary, you are looking for certain things, and you know exactly where the athlete is going.

In football, it's chaos. A million things can happen all at the same time. The official has to be moving with the play. People are bouncing off of each other. Players can run in any direction. There are a whole bunch of different techniques for just about everything. "Some contact" is allowed, but there are judgement calls. The game is going extremely fast. Once it's done, it's done.

I'm not saying this to absolve bad calls. There are some horrendous calls, and you just shake you head and go, "how did you miss that?"

The reason is almost always (though probably not ALWAYS) that the official wasn't actually looking at that spot at that moment in time. They're looking at something else in their field of vision, they've looked down to make sure they're not going to get run over, who knows. But there are times officiating swim, I KNOW I've missed a call (benefit of the doubt always goes to the swimmer) because I happened to be looking somewhere else and I didn't see it. I'd imagine that happens 10-fold with the NFL.

Which explains missed calls, at least to an extent.

What aggravates me more is calls that are made that are just bad calls. I think the reason for most of them is the official "thinks" they saw something, caught a flash, and then their brain completes the play, instead of calling what they actually see.

Quinn gave an example for one of the hold calls on Cosmi. Cosmi used a tomahawk technique where he ripped both arms down and the player basically fell down, and it got called a hold. Quinn said he could see if somebody saw that from the back, they could ASSUME the player was grabbed and pulled down. And that's the problem. My guess is that's exactly what happened. The official saw the result, not the infraction, and therefore assumed it was an infraction. THAT IS BAD OFFICIATING. In any sport.

I don't know how you fix it. It takes practice, review, discussions, and eventually you get better at it. I will say, the NFL has an officiating problem. The officials are just not consistent.

But, I also don't want to understate how unbelievably hard it is.

 

[skinzplay]

What aggravates me more is calls that are made that are just bad calls. I think the reason for most of them is the official "thinks" they saw something, caught a flash, and then their brain completes the play, instead of calling what they actually see.

Quinn gave an example for one of the hold calls on Cosmi. Cosmi used a tomahawk technique where he ripped both arms down and the player basically fell down, and it got called a hold. Quinn said he could see if somebody saw that from the back, they could ASSUME the player was grabbed and pulled down. And that's the problem. My guess is that's exactly what happened. The official saw the result, not the infraction, and therefore assumed it was an infraction. THAT IS BAD OFFICIATING. In any sport.

I don't know how you fix it. It takes practice, review, discussions, and eventually you get better at it. I will say, the NFL has an officiating problem. The officials are just not consistent.

But, I also don't want to understate how unbelievably hard it is.

It's no doubt a tough, thankless undertaking. I agree 100% with your thoughts here, especially on the inconsistency. NFL officiating has really deteriorated over the years. Officiating is something I do watch closely, and it boggles the mind that some blatant calls are missed (or ignored), while others are called (or looked for). The Cosmi example you mentioned is a great case in point, and reminds of me of Tony Greene, who was a long-time NCAA basketball referee known for scouting players and making calls based on what he expected to happen, rather than what actually transpired during the action.

 

[Busch1724]

NFL should just allow holding across the board, offensive and defensive. Once the ball is in the air, hands off and let the timing of holds on passes be reviewable to see if the defender timed it right or not.

 

[HOF44]

I have also noticed the referee standing between the center and QB multiple times per game preventing the offense from going up tempo because the defense is not set. I don't recall seeing that prior to this year and I agree it's absolutely ridiculous.

Think the only time this is done is if the offense subs a player. That requires the officials to allow a defensive sub. But seems the D’s are starting to take advantage of this rule by dragging their feet.

 

[burgold]

I think that's exactly it, but there ought to be something that prevents the D from stalling the substitution so long that it forces play clock down to practically zero. I have literally seen the ref guard the snap until there was three seconds left on the clock. And it's happened a lot. Too often.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

I think that's exactly it, but there ought to be something that prevents the D from stalling the substitution so long that it forces play clock down to practically zero. I have literally seen the ref guard the snap until there was three seconds left on the clock. And it's happened a lot. Too often.

I actually think they should scrap the rule entirely. They put it in because defenses couldn’t keep up with the Peyton hurry up offense in the 00’s.

Pay attention. If the offense subs, defense has the same time to substitute. If you get caught, tell your players to hustle more.

I’ve always hated this rule.

The colts eventually got around this by just staying in 2 TE sets and never substituting and going super fast. Which you can do with Harrison, Wayne, Dallas Clark, some other TE and (at one point) Edgerin James.

That was my favorite offense of all time. Poetry in motion when it was hitting on all cylinders.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

For the substitution rule, it's a tough situation. Because there are QBs like Aaron Rodgers who would take advantage of a quick sub that the D could not keep up with and it led to too many men on the field penalties and free plays. So I understand why the rule is in place. I didn't see the college game yesterday where this blew up, but I saw some comment that SC was trying to sub on offense a little later than usual, so Illinois did the ultimate slow play sub. That is why the refs won't reset the play clock when the defense subs slowly, because the offense could take huge advantage by subbing late, waiting for the D, and getting a fresh play clock. Clearly the Illinois coach had a plan and it worked, all the way to getting the SC coach to lose his mind. But I think there needs to be some tweaks to the rule about when teams can sub, how long teams can match, etc.

I know Sunday night, one of the second half timeouts that Quinn had to use was because of this very thing. And they were calling for a play clock reset because it was a very slow unpile after the play. I can't remember the exact circumstances, but it was slow back to the huddle, slow offensive subs, then the officials holding the play for the defense and Quinn had to use a timeout. There needs to be a balance in that rule that does not give offense or defense an advantage. I think coaches are starting to figure out how to use that rule to their advantage and that's going to have to change.