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OF: State of Grace
- Thread starter Om
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fansince62
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I like it! well written
Thanks brutha. I half expected you to rip me a new one. 
Jimbo
The Franchise Player
Who says we is edumacated?
I think the problem is we've seen it done. We, as fans, want the Skins to be like those other teams that have done it.Is it a reasonable expectation? Probably not but with those marquee names, many of us will expect it. After what we experienced during Gibbs I, many here, and ESPECIALLY me, have a Veruca Salt complex. "Don't care how, I want it now."
Fortunately, us edumacated fan types recall that St. Gibbs went 8-8 in his rookie season.
I can't even imagine what the standard message board fare would have been when that team was 0-5 and the clearly befuddled, overmatched young head coach decided okay, let's scrap everything we've done since minicamps and run a new offense.
It would have all but shut down the web.
I can't even imagine what the standard message board fare would have been when that team was 0-5 and the clearly befuddled, overmatched young head coach decided okay, let's scrap everything we've done since minicamps and run a new offense.
It would have all but shut down the web.
Om, patience isn't a problem for me. After 20 years of mediocre football, what's one or two more, right?
However, at the risk of not sounding positive, I must reiterate that the call for patience makes perfect sense until your team trades picks for a 34 year-old QB.
You'll have to forgive me, but I still can't work my way past that little detail.
However, at the risk of not sounding positive, I must reiterate that the call for patience makes perfect sense until your team trades picks for a 34 year-old QB.
You'll have to forgive me, but I still can't work my way past that little detail.
I know we've been through all this before, but to me the McNabb move made/makes total sense.
- He's got 2-4 years left of at- or near-Pro Bowl level play.
- The Redskins desperately needed a professional quarterback to change the culture and provide leadership to a rudderless offense.
- The cost was reasonable.
- Shanahan has 2-4 years to find and/or groom a successor who can learn from an established, winning veteran.
I understand the thinking that "you don't build around a 34-year old QB." I just don't think that's an accurate assessment of what Shanahan is doing.
- He's got 2-4 years left of at- or near-Pro Bowl level play.
- The Redskins desperately needed a professional quarterback to change the culture and provide leadership to a rudderless offense.
- The cost was reasonable.
- Shanahan has 2-4 years to find and/or groom a successor who can learn from an established, winning veteran.
I understand the thinking that "you don't build around a 34-year old QB." I just don't think that's an accurate assessment of what Shanahan is doing.
Om, I am a of pretty much the same mind as Henry on this. Especially considering how often and how loud you and others have espoused the value of a true franchise QB, lamented how the Skins didn't have one and sang the praises of McNabb as such when he donned the Burgundy and Gold.
If your supposition is correct and the QB position is that much more crucial than any other on the field, the Skins should by rights now be expected to be a top team since they have a top QB. Is the system run here different from Andy's? Sure, somewhat, but we are not talking about the drastic change Jason had from Gibbs/Saunders to Zorn and frankly, Jason looked closer to being the potential Hall of Famer in his first 4 games under Zorn than McNabb as in his last 4 games.
If your supposition is correct and the QB position is that much more crucial than any other on the field, the Skins should by rights now be expected to be a top team since they have a top QB. Is the system run here different from Andy's? Sure, somewhat, but we are not talking about the drastic change Jason had from Gibbs/Saunders to Zorn and frankly, Jason looked closer to being the potential Hall of Famer in his first 4 games under Zorn than McNabb as in his last 4 games.
Jimbo
The Franchise Player
Shanahan's homegrown QB's produced mixed results. He drafted Brian Griese, who made the playoffs once, and Jay Cutler. He managed to reach the playoffs three times, including an NFC Championship Game appearance, with the acquired Jake Plummer.
I have no problem with the acquisition of McNabb. Mike has done well with veteran QB's.
I have no problem with the acquisition of McNabb. Mike has done well with veteran QB's.
Lifting an entire franchise takes more than four games, Neo.
Troy Aikman and Peyton Manning went 1-15 their rookie seasons.
Joe Montana went 2-6 in his first eight starts before hitting the ground running (as it were) in his third season (13-3).
Johnny Unitas went 3-4 his first season.
Not to say it can't be done. Drew Brees, not a rookie, stepped in and lit a fire under the Saints as part of the post-Katrina/post-Haslett 3-13 to 10-6 turnaround.
Whether or not this Redskins team has comparable talent to that Saints team is debatable. And we would have to go back and take a close look at the opposition Brees faced in his first 4 games to compare apples to apples (as much as possible) with McNabb and his first four starts.
What is not debatable is that McNabb is 2-2, and I'm not sure many would argue that the culture does not appear to be changing rapidly. What remains to be seen is how far/how fast that change takes place...and then who we decide gets the lion's share of the credit if/when it does/doesn't.
Troy Aikman and Peyton Manning went 1-15 their rookie seasons.
Joe Montana went 2-6 in his first eight starts before hitting the ground running (as it were) in his third season (13-3).
Johnny Unitas went 3-4 his first season.
Not to say it can't be done. Drew Brees, not a rookie, stepped in and lit a fire under the Saints as part of the post-Katrina/post-Haslett 3-13 to 10-6 turnaround.
Whether or not this Redskins team has comparable talent to that Saints team is debatable. And we would have to go back and take a close look at the opposition Brees faced in his first 4 games to compare apples to apples (as much as possible) with McNabb and his first four starts.
What is not debatable is that McNabb is 2-2, and I'm not sure many would argue that the culture does not appear to be changing rapidly. What remains to be seen is how far/how fast that change takes place...and then who we decide gets the lion's share of the credit if/when it does/doesn't.
fansince62
Guest
Who says we is edumacated?
Is it a reasonable expectation? Probably not but with those marquee names, many of us will expect it. After what we experienced during Gibbs I, many here, and ESPECIALLY me, have a Veruca Salt complex. "Don't care how, I want it now."
we do know this - the window from dregs to championship contender in the NFL seems to be much shorter than in previous decades. so....expectations can be higher
Lifting an entire franchise takes more than four games, Neo.
Troy Aikman and Peyton Manning went 1-15 their rookie seasons.
Joe Montana went 2-6 in his first eight starts before hitting the ground running (as it were) in his third season (13-3).
Johnny Unitas went 3-4 his first season.
Not to say it can't be done. Drew Brees, not a rookie, stepped in and lit a fire under the Saints as part of the post-Katrina/post-Haslett 3-13 to 10-6 turnaround.
Whether or not this Redskins team has comparable talent to that Saints team is debatable. And we would have to go back and take a close look at the opposition Brees faced in his first 4 games to compare apples to apples (as much as possible) with McNabb and his first four starts.
My friend, you sort of just made my point for me. You can't compare those guys first years in the league with McNabbs first year with the Skins but twelfth in the league. When those other guys came in, they all had equal chances of being the guys they turned out to be or being what Health Schuler turned out to be.
In a couple of those cases, the guys you mention were their teams first round pick while McNabb has the luxury of being protected by our teams first round pick.
The comparison with Brees is much more apt in my book and frankly, I don't think it is too much to say that more could reasonably be expected of Donovan in DC than was expected of Brees in NO. Donovan came to us with a larger body of work and significantly more success than Brees and zero questions about his health at the time. I have no clue about the relative talent around Brees. I am just thinking of the one position by itself here.
Again, just going by your assertion that a franchise QB is THE most important thing to a pro football team, I humbly suggest that having higher expectations and less patience of the Skins with McNabb under center is not only reasonable but nearly required.
Of course, I look at the two games this team won and how they won them and I don't think it is unreasonable to believe that to date we are no better off then we likely would have been with Campbell under center. I know statement will meet with some resistance but I think the numbers prove it is, at the very least, a plausible assumption.
And I will grant that McNabb certainly did enough to beat Houston and the defense let him down but it isn't like we didn't say that a number of times about Campbell too.
fansince62
Guest
Lifting an entire franchise takes more than four games, Neo.
Troy Aikman and Peyton Manning went 1-15 their rookie seasons.
Joe Montana went 2-6 in his first eight starts before hitting the ground running (as it were) in his third season (13-3).
Johnny Unitas went 3-4 his first season.
Not to say it can't be done. Drew Brees, not a rookie, stepped in and lit a fire under the Saints as part of the post-Katrina/post-Haslett 3-13 to 10-6 turnaround.
Whether or not this Redskins team has comparable talent to that Saints team is debatable. And we would have to go back and take a close look at the opposition Brees faced in his first 4 games to compare apples to apples (as much as possible) with McNabb and his first four starts.
What is not debatable is that McNabb is 2-2, and I'm not sure many would argue that the culture does not appear to be changing rapidly. What remains to be seen is how far/how fast that change takes place...and then who we decide gets the lion's share of the credit if/when it does/doesn't.
I heard it suggested someplace that what Shanahan is really doing is using this season to figure out who is gameday players are really going to be. Phase 2 of roster remake happens after he has a clearer idea.
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Part of the problem is that we, as fans, talk out of both sides of our mouths. Had Shanahan gone *young* and mortgaged everything now in favor of new young talent, we'd likely have several years of God-awful on the field results. Mike Shanahan is, well, Mike Shanahan, but coming off the Zorn era, I'm not sure even Mike Shanahan survives a sustained period of suckage. I think the McNabb move was clearly about 2 things. First of all, the only young QB Shanahan believed would be a franchise QB (Bradford) couldn't be had at anything short of Mike Ditka 'trade away an entire draft' prices. Secondly, Shanahan felt it critical to be able to have at least some on the field success as he rebuilt.
In the context of those 2 considerations, the McNabb deal made absolute sense in my opinion.
In the context of those 2 considerations, the McNabb deal made absolute sense in my opinion.
Boone, either we are patient or we're not. If we are, we need to suck it up, stop coming up with reasons to trade young for old, and trust our ability to develop our own talent for once.
If we're not, we'd better hope this team keeps eeking out wins. Because I'd rather get younger and suck than get older and suck.
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Henry - I'm with you brother. I would've preferred we blew it all up and went ultra-young. I'm not arguing what we should've done, just stating what I believe the rationale for the decisions was. And the thing you need to keep in mind is that the reality is, the only way a franchise is able to generate the will, commitment level, and plans to build from scratch and through the draft is to first have an owner and front office that has the patience and stomach for the pain it'll take to get there.
Snyder didn't even have the patience to let Jim Zorn grow, having hired him as a full-blown newb head coach with zero experience. I just don't see him having the patience to apply a long-term patient approach with the entire team.
Would I prefer the Redskins adopted a model like Pittsburgh where they hire a head coach they believe in, build through the draft, and commit to long-term success? Yeah. But I also know who our owner is and I just don't see that happening unless Bruce Allen and Shanahan are able to impose it on Snyder and be able to demonstrate success with that approach. I think what I hear you verbalizing (correct me if I'm wrong) is frustration because we expected to see more of a youth movement and building from the ground up than we've actually seen. On that front I tend to be in your camp.
Snyder didn't even have the patience to let Jim Zorn grow, having hired him as a full-blown newb head coach with zero experience. I just don't see him having the patience to apply a long-term patient approach with the entire team.
Would I prefer the Redskins adopted a model like Pittsburgh where they hire a head coach they believe in, build through the draft, and commit to long-term success? Yeah. But I also know who our owner is and I just don't see that happening unless Bruce Allen and Shanahan are able to impose it on Snyder and be able to demonstrate success with that approach. I think what I hear you verbalizing (correct me if I'm wrong) is frustration because we expected to see more of a youth movement and building from the ground up than we've actually seen. On that front I tend to be in your camp.
servumtuum
The Owner's Favorite
Even though I tend to lean toward Om's position myself, and for multiple reasons, many unknown, I have an unusually deep well of patience, I understand the desire to do a complete re-build of the team by installing not just a system but a philosophy incorporating a grand strategy of team development similar to Pittsburgh, New England-teams that are dominant forces over multiple seasons . However,there is a question of do-ability within the context of recent Redskin history as Boone has alluded to.
Why was Vinny Cerrato dismissed and replaced with Bruce Allen and then Shanahan brought in in the first place? I believe that it is likely that at least a part of the reason was the sudden increase of fan dissatisfaction with chronically disappointing seasons culminating in last season's near total dysfunction both on the field and off. Fan displeasure overflowed from online screaming and became palpable. Public demonstrations of displeasure abounded at FedEx from wearing brown bags and embarrassingly sloganed clothing to the even more explicit move of cancelling season ticket purchases.
All of this was not lost on an owner who made himself rich by astute knowledge of marketing and customer bases. Losing a loyal customer base is a cause for dismissal of any marketing manager, I wager, and this owner is not stupid by any means in that area.
What was needed? Emergency treatment, a type of "franchise CPR", if you will. I think the seismic shifts between seasons were an effort to soothe a growling tiger by throwing it a piece of meat. In other words, "get this team respectable and winning FAST-whatever it takes!". The owner, I believe rightfully so, was afraid of the reaction of an intensely loyal fan base to the lack of a sign that things were likely to improve any time soon. He did not want the fans looking at Oakland or Cleveland and wondering if that was the impending future-and, I believe, he realized that he wasn't going to be able to do it himself. Allen and Shanahan were brought in here to do a turnaround not a re-build. It may turn out that a re-build happens eventually but now the emphasis, I believe, is on immediate improvement by whatever means are necessary.
You remember all the talk, both in the media and online about all the new hot QBs coming out in the draft? We were rumored as highly likely to grab one of them-but we didn't. Why? For one thing-a gaping hole at LT, but the other, were any of those QBs good enough to do a quick turnaround? Bradford looks like he may be but what about the rest? I think Allen and Shanahan knew this from studying them-that Bradford was the best of the lot for quick improvement but unavailable without "giving up the farm". So what was the next best tactical move? Grab a really good experienced QB witrh the best resume you can find if you can work a liveable trade for him.
Bingo-McNabb.
All the personnel changes, system changes, scheme changes, training changes, I think, are directed toward getting the Redskins first competitive, and second, playoff contenders within a two to three year window.
And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that in my view. As I noted in another thread, the coaches who built the dynasty teams had their new team in the winning column within a couple years after they arrived on the scene.
Growing pains associated with all the changes-we have lots of them, but improvement has been made and I think will continue.
When you're dealing with an injured person bleeding from a wound-you stop the bleeding first-then work on healing the wound.
Why was Vinny Cerrato dismissed and replaced with Bruce Allen and then Shanahan brought in in the first place? I believe that it is likely that at least a part of the reason was the sudden increase of fan dissatisfaction with chronically disappointing seasons culminating in last season's near total dysfunction both on the field and off. Fan displeasure overflowed from online screaming and became palpable. Public demonstrations of displeasure abounded at FedEx from wearing brown bags and embarrassingly sloganed clothing to the even more explicit move of cancelling season ticket purchases.
All of this was not lost on an owner who made himself rich by astute knowledge of marketing and customer bases. Losing a loyal customer base is a cause for dismissal of any marketing manager, I wager, and this owner is not stupid by any means in that area.
What was needed? Emergency treatment, a type of "franchise CPR", if you will. I think the seismic shifts between seasons were an effort to soothe a growling tiger by throwing it a piece of meat. In other words, "get this team respectable and winning FAST-whatever it takes!". The owner, I believe rightfully so, was afraid of the reaction of an intensely loyal fan base to the lack of a sign that things were likely to improve any time soon. He did not want the fans looking at Oakland or Cleveland and wondering if that was the impending future-and, I believe, he realized that he wasn't going to be able to do it himself. Allen and Shanahan were brought in here to do a turnaround not a re-build. It may turn out that a re-build happens eventually but now the emphasis, I believe, is on immediate improvement by whatever means are necessary.
You remember all the talk, both in the media and online about all the new hot QBs coming out in the draft? We were rumored as highly likely to grab one of them-but we didn't. Why? For one thing-a gaping hole at LT, but the other, were any of those QBs good enough to do a quick turnaround? Bradford looks like he may be but what about the rest? I think Allen and Shanahan knew this from studying them-that Bradford was the best of the lot for quick improvement but unavailable without "giving up the farm". So what was the next best tactical move? Grab a really good experienced QB witrh the best resume you can find if you can work a liveable trade for him.
Bingo-McNabb.
All the personnel changes, system changes, scheme changes, training changes, I think, are directed toward getting the Redskins first competitive, and second, playoff contenders within a two to three year window.
And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that in my view. As I noted in another thread, the coaches who built the dynasty teams had their new team in the winning column within a couple years after they arrived on the scene.
Growing pains associated with all the changes-we have lots of them, but improvement has been made and I think will continue.
When you're dealing with an injured person bleeding from a wound-you stop the bleeding first-then work on healing the wound.
Serventuum, I think you are most likely correct. I'm not sure we are in rebuild mode at all, or ever will be. Where I disagree with you is that I think there is something seriously wrong with that. That means Dan Snyder hasn't learned a damn thing, and we are still on The Treadmill. It also makes calls for patience ring hollow.
I hope you and I are wrong on this.
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I hope you and I are wrong on this.
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I think there are different levels of patience. You might expect with a new coaching staff, and scheme to wait to the second year to get things turned around, whereas with a rebuild to go along with the new staff and scheme you'd wait until the third year to see results. In the modern day NFL few fanbases and owners will give you rope beyond three years unless consistent improvement is demonstrated.
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