Next Day Thread: Patriots Pre-Season

[KDawg]

Hartman, to me, has never been NFL tier as a QB, so I tend to agree that he may not be worth the practice squad reps.

Having said that… one of my biggest gripes in the current NFL is that teams don’t develop quarterbacks, and they churn them over year on year. I’ve advocated for teams having a few slots for young QBs (3 year vet or under) where they can actively develop them and see what happens.

The way it is now, teams churn those lower end spots over for the new and shiny rookie after a year.

Now, sometimes that is because they see that the guy they have doesn’t have it. Sometimes it’s because they see he won’t have it soon and they need to try someone else.

I’d like to see more of an emphasis on developing a QB in the NFL.

But… I am also not sure Hartman has it. Locks in on read one, throws it but it doesn’t have the gas to get to the target without behind defended or even on time.

 

[burgold]

This was one of those games where the parts were greater than the whole. That's not great when talking about a team sport, but it might be useful when trying to find back ups.

Amos, JCM, Brooks, Martin, Connerly, Iggy, Newton, and several others did shine despite the fact that as a team, every unit on the team looked awful.

 

[Always Commander Never Captain]

Hampton - out of position, guessing, playing sideways, got driven 12 yards back on one play, struggled with angles.

Well the team agreed, cause they just cut him today. Guess that clinches Owens roster spot as Hampton also had the same special teams role (I think I read that somewhere).

 

[NickyJ]

While QBs do need to be developed, I'm thinking Hartman isn't the one to spend time on. He still has until the regular season to show more, but he should at least show some improvement over last season. I don't think he showed any.

 

[Anselmheifer]

Hartman, to me, has never been NFL tier as a QB, so I tend to agree that he may not be worth the practice squad reps.

Having said that… one of my biggest gripes in the current NFL is that teams don’t develop quarterbacks, and they churn them over year on year. I’ve advocated for teams having a few slots for young QBs (3 year vet or under) where they can actively develop them and see what happens.

The way it is now, teams churn those lower end spots over for the new and shiny rookie after a year.

Now, sometimes that is because they see that the guy they have doesn’t have it. Sometimes it’s because they see he won’t have it soon and they need to try someone else.

I’d like to see more of an emphasis on developing a QB in the NFL.

But… I am also not sure Hartman has it. Locks in on read one, throws it but it doesn’t have the gas to get to the target without behind defended or even on time.

Since we have our franchise guy and are not in a hurry, I'd love to see us approach the 3rd string QB closer to the way that we address mid to late round draft picks. Find a guy analogous to these high RAS, mid and late round picks, a guy with a lot of tools, and develop him. Either that, or find an elite processor with sub par tools. It doesn't help Hartman that he is he is neither. Doesn't have the arm. Doesn't have the legs. Doesn't have the processing. If you are going to work with a guy that doesn't process that well to start with, why not work with a guy that can throw and run?

I don't think there is any chance Hartman makes the roster. He probably makes the practice squad, but I am not 100% sure about that either. Jayden doesn't need a buddy in the QB room to make him comfortable anymore. I don't think that is going to factor into decision making.

 

[Primus Porcus]

Since we have our franchise guy and are not in a hurry, I'd love to see us approach the 3rd string QB closer to the way that we address mid to late round draft picks. Find a guy analogous to these high RAS, mid and late round picks, a guy with a lot of tools, and develop him. Either that, or find an elite processor with sub par tools. It doesn't help Hartman that he is he is neither. Doesn't have the arm. Doesn't have the legs. Doesn't have the processing. If you are going to work with a guy that doesn't process that well to start with, why not work with a guy that can throw and run?

I don't think there is any chance Hartman makes the roster. He probably makes the practice squad, but I am not 100% sure about that either. Jayden doesn't need a buddy in the QB room to make him comfortable anymore. I don't think that is going to factor into decision making.

I actually am not closing the door on Hartman just yet. That's not to say he's going to be a guy you'd hitch your wagon to, but we're talking about a 3rd string, fringe PS player. If we're getting down to that level of player in a regular season game, we're in trouble already. Him and Jayden seem to have a really good working relationship, and there's a level of those types of things that are important. He likely can execute the offense, though he had the struggles he did. As we talked on the Blind Pig Podcast the other night, it's hard to truly develop any conclusions from the game because of a multitude of factors. We had 30 players not participate in that game across all levels of the team. How different can Hartman play with Deebo, Ekeler, McLaurin, Ertz, BRob, and Bates to assist in
multiple ways whether it be in the offense or in pass pro? Also, the OL that didnt participate? Tunsil, Cosmi, Coleman, Wylie, McKay, Allegretti, Biadasz. The only projected starter, let alone contributor, that played is Conerly, a rookie (who held his own BTW).

Yes, I saw that Hartman had to essentially crow hop to get anything outside the hashmarks, the arm was just not there most of the time. He did have a couple quality throws including an out route where he threw it with clear anticipation and it connected. Another was the deep ball that wasn't brought in. He also had numerous drops, including one on a 3rd and medium that would have been an easy 1st down over the middle. He's very likely never going to be a starter, physically it just doesn't appear to be there, but again, the guy is competing to be a 3rd string, P/S type, and a guy who fills that type of role is not one that projects to be a long term starter. Those guys are the ones you hope can come in and manage a few drives in a pinch if necessary.

 

[Boone]

If Josh Johnson weren't 39 years old, I doubt Hartman would be on this roster at all. I have zero problem with trying to develop a guy and there must be something they like about Hartman. On the other hand, he doesn't look to have an NFL arm, and that can't be 'coached up'. Even if Josh Johnson wasn't solidly set as our #3 QB, can anyone really make the argument there aren't better more NFL ready arms out there besides Hartman? Yeah - if it comes to #3/#4 QB, it's probably over anyway. But still... he just doesn't look like an NFL backup caliber guy. At least not so far.

 

[Conn]

If you’re going to have a relatively expensive/reliable vet backup like Mariota (which you should when you’re a contender with a young franchise QB), then the developmental guy should have tools imo. A Joe Milton type with some upside to develop into a longterm #2 or trade piece. Wasting a roster spot on a guy with no tools like Hartman is silly. Has to at least have an NFL arm if you’re going for the “brainy career clipboard holder” archetype. Developmental QB must have +tools or +smarts/decision-making/accuracy to be worth the roster spot and time invested

 

[NickyJ]

To keep things in perspective, Hartman is clearly struggling to separate himself in this race from a 39 year old journeyman who got his only NFL win while playing for us 7 years ago. I don't expect terribly much from him, but I'm trying to find a single thing he does better besides taking care of his hair.

 

[Bulldog]

There’s a reason a quarterback from a highly visible program doesn’t get drafted as one of the 260 players chosen.

I think it’s clear Hartman doesn’t have the arm or the poise to play at this level.

The game should have slowed down a bit for him after being in the program for a year and yet he didn’t look very good processing what he saw in Game 1.

Johnson is an older version of Josh Dobbs, a smart player who can come in and learn system and use mobility to make some plays.

But he isn’t going to get on field and with injuries at quarterback take a team to a 4-1 finish and a playoff berth.

I think we can go with two and see who gets released, there might be a player that becomes available that Kliff likes and can work into the offense.

I agree with a veteran back up we should be looking to add a developmental qb with raw skills on Day 3 in 2026.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

If Josh Johnson weren't 39 years old, I doubt Hartman would be on this roster at all. I have zero problem with trying to develop a guy and there must be something they like about Hartman. On the other hand, he doesn't look to have an NFL arm, and that can't be 'coached up'. Even if Josh Johnson wasn't solidly set as our #3 QB, can anyone really make the argument there aren't better more NFL ready arms out there besides Hartman? Yeah - if it comes to #3/#4 QB, it's probably over anyway. But still... he just doesn't look like an NFL backup caliber guy. At least not so far.

I agree. I also think Peters knew going into the offseason he couldn't count on Hartman as the #3 which is why he signed Josh Johnson to begin with.

Now Hartman is extremely expendable And I think he will be expended.

They gave him a shot. He couldn't play. They might give him another shot. Heck, he might play the entire third pre-season game. Which might be the last NFL game he ever plays in.

He will either be on the PS or off the roster this year, and next year they'll bring in somebody else to try and groom.

 

[Boone]

Not that it's a huge argument to keep Josh Johnson, but the one thing he does have going in his favor is that he is athletic and can use his legs - even at age 39.

And let me just give us some perspective here.

How nice is it to be spending precious life energy debating who the #3 QB should be on this team? For decades, we were often having the same conversation about the STARTER, lol...

Just sayin'...

 

[Conn]

QB cuts around the league will be interesting to follow, because I do think there’s a good chance we either want a young #3 QB on the roster, or at least a guy on the PS (who shouldn’t be Hartman)

 

[Always Commander Never Captain]

The #3 QB does not have to be developmental, it should be someone who can run a scout team offense effectively, to help the defense prepare.

There is little actual QB development happening of the #3 compared to the starter. Exceptions are if the coaches start realizing the starter is either hurt, not cutting it, or could be retiring soon.

 

[DWinzit]

Since we have our franchise guy and are not in a hurry, I'd love to see us approach the 3rd string QB closer to the way that we address mid to late round draft picks. Find a guy analogous to these high RAS, mid and late round picks, a guy with a lot of tools, and develop him. Either that, or find an elite processor with sub par tools. It doesn't help Hartman that he is he is neither. Doesn't have the arm. Doesn't have the legs. Doesn't have the processing. If you are going to work with a guy that doesn't process that well to start with, why not work with a guy that can throw and run?

I don't think there is any chance Hartman makes the roster. He probably makes the practice squad, but I am not 100% sure about that either. Jayden doesn't need a buddy in the QB room to make him comfortable anymore. I don't think that is going to factor into decision making.

Agreed. There were a couple decent late round prospects this year that could have been worthy if we could have afforded it. Without any trade downs there was no way they could justify it this year.

 

[Conn]

The #3 QB does not have to be developmental, it should be someone who can run a scout team offense effectively, to help the defense prepare.

There is little actual QB development happening of the #3 compared to the starter. Exceptions are if the coaches start realizing the starter is either hurt, not cutting it, or could be retiring soon.

You’re right that there aren’t any in-season reps to spare to develop a #3 QB in the NFL, but accumulating years of time in the QB meeting room is where most of the development happens behind the scenes. And then the offseason is a time to get more reps and preseason play time to put it in practice and show your development.

Many teams can’t justify rostering a developmental 3rd QB. Young #1 franchise guy + old veteran who doesn’t need many snaps and gets kept in bubble wrap for emergency use only is the use case for this sort of development, though. The type of player that can benefit from hundreds of live preseason snaps and play the majority of those games to gain experience, who gets good enough to allow proper evaluation of the skill players on the roster and can eventually be traded or elevated to the #2 role. The GB/Eagles model of the past

I think an underrated way to approach this might be to wait until teams give up on over drafted earlier picks at QB, who cut them bc keeping them around is untenable as they used to be the starter or starter-in-waiting. And just being patient with them in the way their former teams couldn’t afford to be because the pedigree was too great to bench them for years. Sam Darnold is a good example of this and the best case scenario, Teddy Bridgewater to a degree, Mitch Trubutsky has become the long term backup in Buffalo. San Diego is a run heavy team trying to salvage Trey Lance in a similar manner. Malik Willis in GB is becoming this guy, with patience.

A future target for this may include Anthony Richardson after the inevitable divorce, but tbh he’s so terrible as a passer that the years of investment it would take to get his decision-making in a non-disaster place would probably prevent you from evaluating the bottom half of your roster in preseason, defeating the purpose. So maybe not.

 

[KDawg]

Not that it's a huge argument to keep Josh Johnson, but the one thing he does have going in his favor is that he is athletic and can use his legs - even at age 39.

And let me just give us some perspective here.

How nice is it to be spending precious life energy debating who the #3 QB should be on this team? For decades, we were often having the same conversation about the STARTER, lol...

Just sayin'...

And this conversation around Hartman may have been about HIM starting.

Yikes.

 

[KDawg]

The #3 QB does not have to be developmental, it should be someone who can run a scout team offense effectively, to help the defense prepare.

There is little actual QB development happening of the #3 compared to the starter. Exceptions are if the coaches start realizing the starter is either hurt, not cutting it, or could be retiring soon.

I disagree here. I think being in a NFL QB room can aide in development to an absolutely incredible degree.

 

[JamesJohnson]

With so many guys out, there were a few bright spots but plenty to fix before Week 1.

 

[burgold]

You’re right that there aren’t any in-season reps to spare to develop a #3 QB in the NFL, but accumulating years of time in the QB meeting room is where most of the development happens behind the scenes. And then the offseason is a time to get more reps and preseason play time to put it in practice and show your development.

This makes me wonder if teams should hire a "practice squad" coach. Someone who's job is specifically to work with and train up those deep bench developmental guys.