If you are Josh Harris calling Adam Peters.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I’m kind of blown away that Kingsbury is now suddenly an incompetent idiot. Nevermind that he lost every single skill position starter except Zach Ertz (who lets face it, isn’t much of a TE starter at this point) on his offensive roster for all or a significant chunk of the season.

These factors are kind of relevant guys.

Um, also his starting QB for 3 full games.

And his starting offense never practiced together during the off-season, both due to the Terry hold-in and also injuries across the board.

They had to flip BOTH starting guards after 2 games, because Allegretti and Coleman were not cutting it, so they plugged in Paul and Wylie. Then flipped again to Cosmi.

It matters. A lot. There's no much you can do with this situation. You can't run, you can't pass. But you're a stupid dumb ass because you don't run enough.

Shrug.

 

[SkinsNumberOne]

How is it not clear?

Adam Peters is a fully empowered GM with complete control over the organization and personnel. What evidence is there this is t the case?

Second-hand because I am low on time, so I appreciate anyone else's input here - but I hear from friends that in press conferences AP and DQ seem to talk very collaboratively. That is a good thing, don't get me wrong. I also know that AP came from the 9ers / Lynch situation, where Lynch works VERY closely with Kyle. I think close collaboration, and a close-to-peer relationship situation there makes a ton of sense. Kyle has an attention to detail that can earn him that but not every HC has the same skillsets. I bet DQ is better at certain things interpersonally.

The other thing that continues to disturb me is picking up Connerly when you have Coleman and you have Tunsil recently acquired with a cost. I liked the Tunsil move to free us for BPA. I think most GMs would agree that the play there is to do exactly that. Sure, I'm no GM, but I have seen enough to be at least somewhat confident in that.

Taking Connerly and eventually seeing Coleman ride pine - it doesn't smell like a plan that AP would endorse at all. There's always going to be "some conjecture" when you're not in the room, and I admit to a lot of conjecture here so definitely welcome the evidence to show the contrary. It seems to me, AP was the driving force for picking up Coleman. That was an analytics driven move, along with our needs. It has all of the hallmarks.

Connerly, we have the rare gift of insight from AP himself. He showed us that note from Kliff. I am not saying that is a problem, at all. You need collaboration. However - in my opinion - that was a moment we needed AP to override Kliff. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I feel a lot of GMs *would* override Kliff in that moment too. It seems really off; you have a textbook situation to get a guy that dropped, all of your moves set you up for it, and you don't.

When I say, it is "not clear" - that's what I mean. It's not clear. I am saying, I don't have evidence to show that AP is in charge or not (I make no claim on either). Do you? You made a fairly definitive statement; with what evidence? Maybe I missed something, if so, great! Very possible.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

How is it not clear?

Adam Peters is a fully empowered GM with complete control over the organization and personnel. What evidence is there this isn’t the case?

No matter how bad a season, you don’t start blowing it all up in year 2 particularly when the only other season of data had the team a win away from a Super Bowl. That did actually happen.

We seem to be losing our collective minds as a fanbase at the moment (not you SkinsNumberOne but the general fan mindset)?

I think the losing of minds is to be expected. I mean, this season was probably the first time since 2013 where there were legitimate expectations the team was going to be "make a run" type of good. And there WERE those expectations in 2013, even though Griffin was coming off of the injury. Before that it was probably 2006, after the playoff run of 2005. Before that it was probably 1992 or 1993, depending on how much faith you had in Richie taking over for Gibbs.

Given the level of expectation, the drop off is soul crushing. And I get that.

But I think you have to look at how we got here. There were probably 5 different things which caused this debacle, and probably the biggest culprit is just bad dumb luck.

 

[SkinsNumberOne]

Um, also his starting QB for 3 full games.

And his starting offense never practiced together during the off-season, both due to the Terry hold-in and also injuries across the board.

They had to flip BOTH starting guards after 2 games, because Allegretti and Coleman were not cutting it, so they plugged in Paul and Wylie. Then flipped again to Cosmi.

It matters. A lot. There's no much you can do with this situation. You can't run, you can't pass. But you're a stupid dumb ass because you don't run enough.

Shrug.

Well, again - CRod, 5ypc, main component arguably in lone TD drive.

Disappears to bench for next drive. Why?

He ends the day with 12 rushes, 5ypc.

So... again... why? Why not use CRod more?

I am totally fine with losing, as long as we are giving our players the best shot to win. Under no circumstances do I believe Kliff is doing that. I believe Kliff has a scheme that he wants to run, and he is running it, and this is the result with our current personnel. I think there is plenty of evidence that supports that statement. It's pretty consistent, and sadly over the last three weeks, including a *VERY BAD* Dallas defense, we struggled a lot. Again, *VERY BAD* Dallas defense.

You make it sound like we could do nothing all of the time. It's definitely convenient to say if you want to defend Kliff, I guess. I don't know why you need to shut out obvious things though. I'm listening if you have an honest explanation to the above.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

Second-hand because I am low on time, so I appreciate anyone else's input here - but I hear from friends that in press conferences AP and DQ seem to talk very collaboratively. That is a good thing, don't get me wrong. I also know that AP came from the 9ers / Lynch situation, where Lynch works VERY closely with Kyle. I think close collaboration, and a close-to-peer relationship situation there makes a ton of sense. Kyle has an attention to detail that can earn him that but not every HC has the same skillsets. I bet DQ is better at certain things interpersonally.

The other thing that continues to disturb me is picking up Connerly when you have Coleman and you have Tunsil recently acquired with a cost. I liked the Tunsil move to free us for BPA. I think most GMs would agree that the play there is to do exactly that. Sure, I'm no GM, but I have seen enough to be at least somewhat confident in that.

Taking Connerly and eventually seeing Coleman ride pine - it doesn't smell like a plan that AP would endorse at all. There's always going to be "some conjecture" when you're not in the room, and I admit to a lot of conjecture here so definitely welcome the evidence to show the contrary. It seems to me, AP was the driving force for picking up Coleman. That was an analytics driven move, along with our needs. It has all of the hallmarks.

Connerly, we have the rare gift of insight from AP himself. He showed us that note from Kliff. I am not saying that is a problem, at all. You need collaboration. However - in my opinion - that was a moment we needed AP to override Kliff. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I feel a lot of GMs *would* override Kliff in that moment too. It seems really off; you have a textbook situation to get a guy that dropped, all of your moves set you up for it, and you don't.

When I say, it is "not clear" - that's what I mean. It's not clear. I am saying, I don't have evidence to show that AP is in charge or not (I make no claim on either). Do you? You made a fairly definitive statement; with what evidence? Maybe I missed something, if so, great! Very possible.

So, I do think the showing of the note was kindof a joke. I don't think they would have taken Conerly if Peters hadn't been pretty sure he was the best player on the board. You go best player on your board, and every board is different. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But you don't get into roster building strategy and picking for need, or you reach for players you shouldn't.

I think the mis-judgement was that Coleman would be able to slip inside and not miss a beat. It seems they got that wrong. But I can see the thinking: Conerly is the best player on the board. Pick him. A lot of people thought Coleman would be a better guard than tackle, you pick a starting RT in the first, you've traded for a starting LT, and all of a sudden, you've upgraded 2 positions with one pick, because they needed to replace LG also anyway because Allegretti was not good enough and was going to have to fill in for Cosmi while he was out.

That plan makes sense.

The problem is, Coleman didn't transition inside well. For whatever reason, and I don't think we'll ever know. But he hasn't. So now there's a glut at tackle, and your second round pick from last year is a backup. Which is a problem.

So, what I would do, if Coleman truly is a tackle and not a guard, and you're happy with Conerly at RT, and Tunsil at LT, is I'd trade Coleman to a tackle-needy team. RIGHT NOW.

I think the plan made a lot of sense.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

Well, again - CRod, 5ypc, main component arguably in lone TD drive.

Disappears to bench for next drive. Why?

He ends the day with 12 rushes, 5ypc.

So... again... why? Why not use CRod more?

I am totally fine with losing, as long as we are giving our players the best shot to win. Under no circumstances do I believe Kliff is doing that. I believe Kliff has a scheme that he wants to run, and he is running it, and this is the result with our current personnel. I think there is plenty of evidence that supports that statement. It's pretty consistent, and sadly over the last three weeks, including a *VERY BAD* Dallas defense, we struggled a lot. Again, *VERY BAD* Dallas defense.

You make it sound like we could do nothing all of the time. It's definitely convenient to say if you want to defend Kliff, I guess. I don't know why you need to shut out obvious things though. I'm listening if you have an honest explanation to the above.

By the time that drive happened, Seattle was playing a deep shell defense and essentially saying, "yeah, take 5 yards a pop and 30 second a play, and fine with us.

I actually am glad they put Bill back in to get him some more touches, because he needs more touches. CRod is 1) a replacement level backup and 2) going to be a FA.

To me, this whole argument is a bit of "shrug."

 

[SkinsNumberOne]

By the time that drive happened, Seattle was playing a deep shell defense and essentially saying, "yeah, take 5 yards a pop and 30 second a play, and fine with us.

I actually am glad they put Bill back in to get him some more touches, because he needs more touches. CRod is 1) a replacement level backup and 2) going to be a FA.

To me, this whole argument is a bit of "shrug."

By the time that drive happened? That was the second quarter. No, that's just not true. I don't think that position holds any merit at all, whatsoever.

Look, the "whole argument" is the same discussion we've had over and over. Kliff makes very strange decisions from a pure offensive playcalling perspective, in-game, if you're just trying to win. He goes to what he is most comfortable with, regularly. It just seems like you don't want to accept that, at this point.

It's cool, but if you do want to discuss it - let's be totally honest. 2nd quarter is way too early for your claim to be sensible.

 

[SkinsNumberOne]

How is it not clear?

Adam Peters is a fully empowered GM with complete control over the organization and personnel. What evidence is there this isn’t the case?

No matter how bad a season, you don’t start blowing it all up in year 2 particularly when the only other season of data had the team a win away from a Super Bowl. That did actually happen.

We seem to be losing our collective minds as a fanbase at the moment (not you SkinsNumberOne but the general fan mindset)?

By the way, major data-point in Adam Peters not being a fully empowered GM is the coach selection process. I still go back to that. Compare it to Seattle.

In Seattle - Schneider and Allen (owner) collaborated, decided they liked Macdonald and didn't want him to visit anywhere else (cough cough, DC). So before he could go, they made him an offer that was really strong and "showed the love." They talked a bit about it, and so did he - they said they moved really fast and with conviction, and his words conveyed something in the nature of "they were able to move faster than others." The reason? Guys, again, it's a bit of conjecture but it's clear. We had 7 guys in the room. We were a bit slower to move. I do think it's because our GM is green and our owner knows that. I understand, but I also think it was a mistake. Understandable though.

However, it informs my perspective here. I don't *know* that Harris sees that was a mistake, and understands he needs to fully empower his young and inexperienced GM. To be clear -- should he? How do I know? I am just saying, looking at things, it's not clear that AP is fully empowered.

I do not wany any "blowing it up" by any stretch. However, do I think we have some coaching problems? Yes, definitely. I think we have underachieved this year, even accounting for injuries. To me, Donatell is a head scratcher at this point. I am also uncertain in a few other places. When writers write for weeks that McCaffrey is open and not getting seen, I see it as a problem. Whose fault? Hard to say. A coaching issue? Probably. With a very teachable QB, it starts to feel more like a coaching issue as well.

I appreciate your last line by the way. I am definitely not losing my mind, but I do a lot of analyzing based on facts and then yes, I do conjecture. I know I could be wrong (of course). I'm not in the room.

 

[Boone]

I don’t have time at the moment to do your post justice but I will say I think the coaching hire process and how that all went down says a lot more about Harris being a very strong, hands-on, ‘this is how we operate’ owner than it does about how strong AP is as a GM.

 

[Faithful Fan]

I think the losing of minds is to be expected. I mean, this season was probably the first time since 2013 where there were legitimate expectations the team was going to be "make a run" type of good. And there WERE those expectations in 2013, even though Griffin was coming off of the injury. Before that it was probably 2006, after the playoff run of 2005. Before that it was probably 1992 or 1993, depending on how much faith you had in Richie taking over for Gibbs.

Given the level of expectation, the drop off is soul crushing. And I get that.

But I think you have to look at how we got here. There were probably 5 different things which caused this debacle, and probably the biggest culprit is just bad dumb luck.

Agree about expectations and being let down, and a lot of it is due to a stretch of truly horrible luck with injuries. I would add 2000 to the list of letdown years along with 2013 and 2006. The 1999 team was strong and they added pieces.

 

[Solitary Man]

I mean, it’s not personal, but it reads like you learned nothing from 20 years of Snyder

All you have said is Snyder. Would Snyder say anything about getting younger? About not paying for old players? Hello?

 

[NoCalSkins]

I remember when Kingsbury was hired as OC one of the main criticisms of his I heard from fans of previous teams he had been with is that his scheme tends to start hot but once adjusted to it fades. The problem with applying that criticism to the current production of the offense is that it is the roster itself that has faded and the players out there on the field are just not up to NFL standards, or at least not in the roles they are being asked to fill in right now.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

By the time that drive happened? That was the second quarter. No, that's just not true. I don't think that position holds any merit at all, whatsoever.

Look, the "whole argument" is the same discussion we've had over and over. Kliff makes very strange decisions from a pure offensive playcalling perspective, in-game, if you're just trying to win. He goes to what he is most comfortable with, regularly. It just seems like you don't want to accept that, at this point.

It's cool, but if you do want to discuss it - let's be totally honest. 2nd quarter is way too early for your claim to be sensible.

No, you're right. I thought that TD drive was later in the game. But when that drive started, it was already 28-0 Seahawks. I honestly forget we scored in the first half.

If you want to quibble about personnel of Bill vs. CRod, fine, but Bill is the team's starting RB right now, CRod is the backup. Could you flip the two a little bit? Maybe. But I think you're trying to put a bandaid on a paper cut of a person who's bleeding to death from a gunshot wound with this argument.

They ended up with 26 carries (if you take out the Daniels scrambles) for 100 yards. They got off 22 passes. Daniels had 10 scrambles.

I just don't see what you're seeing with the play calling. Which, lest we forget, was good enough last year to put Kliff on the short list of HC hires, and he turned down the New Orleans job. There's nothing that's happened this year to think he isn't doing a good job with what he's working with. The problem is, he's working with literally nothing.

 

[Conn]

The larger search committee working with Harris (the basketball guys, etc.) was to find Peters and set the foundation, right? I don’t think that entire committee was involved in the HC search as well. I got the impression at the time that Adam Peters, having been wooed by Harris and his advisors, was pretty empowered by that point to find his guy at HC, and Harris of course was involved as well.

But Ben Johnson’s “basketball guys” comment was about his initial zoom interview with the original search committee, because by necessity it happened early in the process when there was time, which was before Peters was officially hired I believe. Which happens often when an entire organizational reset is happening, sometimes the owner (and consultants) conducts initial meet & greet interviews with hot HC candidates before the GM hire is finalized, and then they do the real interviews with the football guy leading the way. Peters (and Harris) were the ones flying to interview Johnson (and Glenn) in DET at that point, but Ben Johnson had already stumbled in his zoom interview or at least chafed against whatever Harris & Co. were selling at that early point.

With Macdonald, the Seahawks indeed moved fast to lock down their guy. But if the alternative is that we did a less thorough GM search, is that really what we would have wanted at the time? Franchises who are keeping the existing GM/FO structure in place always have a head start on HC hiring, that’s just how it is. SEA kept theirs. Doesn’t mean you can rush the most important part of your own process (the GM search) to beat those franchises to the punch on coaching candidates. Right?

 

[Conn]

All you have said is Snyder. Would Snyder say anything about getting younger? About not paying for old players? Hello?

What? I don’t want an owner exercising their power to influence football operations in any way. Period. There is a mechanism for that, and it’s firing the GM and starting an organizational reset with a new GM who aligns with the owner’s goals and values, if necessary. Beyond that, sign the checks, stay informed and engaged so you can hold the GM accountable, and don’t create controversy. Luckily Harris seems to agree with that model. What you’re talking about is a nightmare.

 

[Solitary Man]

What? I don’t want an owner exercising their power to influence football operations in any way. Period. There is a mechanism for that, and it’s firing the GM and starting an organizational reset with a new GM who aligns with the owner’s goals and values, if necessary. Beyond that, sign the checks, stay informed and engaged so you can hold the GM accountable, and don’t create controversy. Luckily Harris seems to agree with that model. What you’re talking about is a nightmare.

You know what is a real nightmare?

A coach who doesn’t have the balls to remove his “game changer”. And almost ruins him.

And.

An offensive coordinator who doesn’t have the brains or wisdom to protect the teams franchise player. 9 passes in the first 10 plays to start the game I believe. And those were not quick passing game throws. With no weapons.


Now if you want to talk about owner meddling we can do that. I can understand how saying strike one would piss Peters supporters off. The GM bought in on JD. In full. So what is he doing to protect him?

I also knew my lame duck promotion of JW would piss people off. I’m not trying to do that. But I don’t care. The season is shot. Get his Rooney rule interview out of the way at seasons end.

I am very interested in seeing what David Blough can offer. The team was more interested in keeping him than Chin and several key players from last year.


If you think my scenario is a nightmare, stick around. This season is going to get a lot worse.

 

[Chris]

'He's your guy': How Steve Kerr and others influenced the Commanders to hire Dan Quinn

Quinn was a top candidate, along with Ben Johnson, Mike Macdonald and others. Here's how -- and why -- Washington made him its guy.

www.espn.com

 

[SkinsLife]

The larger search committee working with Harris (the basketball guys, etc.) was to find Peters and set the foundation, right? I don’t think that entire committee was involved in the HC search as well. I got the impression at the time that Adam Peters, having been wooed by Harris and his advisors, was pretty empowered by that point to find his guy at HC, and Harris of course was involved as well.

But Ben Johnson’s “basketball guys” comment was about his initial zoom interview with the original search committee, because by necessity it happened early in the process when there was time, which was before Peters was officially hired I believe. Which happens often when an entire organizational reset is happening, sometimes the owner (and consultants) conducts initial meet & greet interviews with hot HC candidates before the GM hire is finalized, and then they do the real interviews with the football guy leading the way. Peters (and Harris) were the ones flying to interview Johnson (and Glenn) in DET at that point, but Ben Johnson had already stumbled in his zoom interview or at least chafed against whatever Harris & Co. were selling at that early point.

With Macdonald, the Seahawks indeed moved fast to lock down their guy. But if the alternative is that we did a less thorough GM search, is that really what we would have wanted at the time? Franchises who are keeping the existing GM/FO structure in place always have a head start on HC hiring, that’s just how it is. SEA kept theirs. Doesn’t mean you can rush the most important part of your own process (the GM search) to beat those franchises to the punch on coaching candidates. Right?

Thats not how it went down...
1. BJ was always the #1 choice... but because Det was in the playoffs they couldn't have the main interview w him until Det got knocked out. This FO interviwed Macdonald, but decided to wait for Johnson.. (i assume because they thought they had a good shot to land BJ) told Macdonald to wait.
2. Seattle moved for Macdonald right away as their #1 and had deep discussion with him. By the time Wash FO realized BJ was not in play.. Macdonald was already deep in seattle discussion and when Wash reached out to him (their #2 choice) he told them to pound sand and signed with seattle.
3. at this point the only viable candidate left was Quinn... so washington took him (and made it sound like he was the choice all along) which was BS, but gullible fans around here ate it up.

The screw up, beyond thinking Quinn is a good HC.. was putting all their eggs in the BJ basket with no viable backup plan

 

[Conn]

You know what is a real nightmare?

A coach who doesn’t have the balls to remove his “game changer”. And almost ruins him.

And.

An offensive coordinator who doesn’t have the brains or wisdom to protect the teams franchise player. 9 passes in the first 10 plays to start the game I believe. And those were not quick passing game throws. With no weapons.


Now if you want to talk about owner meddling we can do that. I can understand how saying strike one would piss Peters supporters off. The GM bought in on JD. In full. So what is he doing to protect him?

I also knew my lame duck promotion of JW would piss people off. I’m not trying to do that. But I don’t care. The season is shot. Get his Rooney rule interview out of the way at seasons end.

I am very interested in seeing what David Blough can offer. The team was more interested in keeping him than Chin and several key players from last year.


If you think my scenario is a nightmare, stick around. This season is going to get a lot worse.

Your ideas aren’t interesting enough to piss anyone off, people are just pointing out that they’re bad ideas, which is a normal part of partaking in message board discourse. No biggie imo.

Most of what you’re saying has no relation whatsoever to ownership. Plenty of talk around the board on all those issues and topics, plenty of people angry about the same things. Just has nothing to do with your proposed hypothetical about ownership intervention. That’s the pushback you’re getting.

And yeah the Whitt stuff is dumb and the flagrant Rooney Rule avoidance you posit is unsavory. So yeah. Just bad posts getting reactions that bad posts get. You’re not the bad guy here you’re just having bad ideas. Been there plenty of times.

 

[Conn]

Thats not how it went down...
1. BJ was always the #1 choice... but because Det was in the playoffs they couldn't have the main interview w him until Det got knocked out. This FO interviwed Macdonald, but decided to wait for Johnson.. (i assume because they thought they had a good shot to land BJ) told Macdonald to wait.
2. Seattle moved for Macdonald right away as their #1 and had deep discussion with him. By the time Wash FO realized BJ was not in play.. Macdonald was already deep in seattle discussion and when Wash reached out to him (their #2 choice) he told them to pound sand and signed with seattle.
3. at this point the only viable candidate left was Quinn... so washington took him (and made it sound like he was the choice all along) which was BS, but gullible fans around here ate it up.

We know that Ben Johnson immediately had a rough zoom interview with Harris & Co. (for whatever reason) so I really don’t think the narrative that he was the obvious #1 candidate ended up being true, even though we all entered the process assuming that (as did the entire world). There was friction before he ever got physically in a room with AP. He wasn’t ready to let go of his Dan Campbell binky yet, either, clearly.