ESPN: Shanahan was ready to quit in '12

[Elephant]

And if Shanahan takes no action where does that leave us?

That's not the point, if he doesn't try to out smart the NFL and slip the contract through, the penalty is a non-issue.

I am not sure exactly what the contract timeline was, but I am sure we could have manipulated less than 21 million over 2 years. And it certainly would not have left us holdings our ****s 48 hours before we addressed critical needs with our franchise QB needing help.

And you're pretty confident Tennessee would not have eaten part of the deal. I cannot go off anything other than memory since I am too lazy to research this, but if memory serves, TN was going to take part of his contract. They wanted him back.

 

[tshile]

That's not the point, if he doesn't try to out smart the NFL and slip the contract through, the penalty is a non-issue.

I am not sure exactly what the contract timeline was, but I am sure we could have manipulated less than 21 million over 2 years. And it certainly would not have left us holdings our ****s 48 hours before we addressed critical needs with our franchise QB needing help.

And you're pretty confident Tennessee would not have eaten part of the deal. I cannot go off anything other than memory since I am too lazy to research this, but if memory serves, TN was going to take part of his contract. They wanted him back.

You're right that the blame lies on Shanahan for the money being accelerated into those two years instead of over the life of the contracts, which it would have been if they were kept the way they were.

But it appears you finally understand that the money was owed, one way or the other. It may not be your point, but it is mine. Shanahan didn't allocate that money to Haynesworth or Hall - Cerrato and Snyder did. That money was owed, one way or the other, to those two players. The cap penalty wasn't mystically created out of thin air - the Redskins tried to move it off the books, and The League put it back on the books via penalty since they couldn't take money away from the players and make the skins pay it via the original contracts.

Short of finding a trade partner that would have agreed to eat the money (hah) or convincing the players to give it up (HAH!), the money was allocated to those two players and was there to stay. There are people that think accelerating it was worth it, letting us get over the bad contracts quicker (otherwise they would have dragged out for 5-6 years.) I have no idea if those people are right or not.

All I know is that the fundamental part of the issue is that Cerrato and Snyder issued an absurd contract to Haynesworth and that Shanahan and Allen had nothing to do with it. They tried their best to get out from under it, and The League said no. Outside of accelerating the cost, the problem was caused by a magnificently bad contract offered by two guys with 12 years experience in making bad contracts at the time.

The alternative to the cap penalty was that we would still be paying Haynesworth. Now, and for the new few years. Is that a better alternative? I don't know, but if it is then it's not much better.

Snyder and Cerrato really ****ed this organization up. Shanahan needs to go, but how quickly some of you have forgotten about how completely ****ed up this organization was is honestly worrisome.

 

[Ax]

The cap space was allocated to haynesworth by cerrato and snyder. The only way to get it back was to negotiate a trade with someone that included the transfer of the guaranteed money, or to convince haynesworth to renegotiate it out of the contract.

A general trade would not have alleviated the cap hit, and in fact would have accelerated the remainder to that year.

How does he simply maneuver the money? It was owed to Haynesworth via contract. It was guaranteed money. The option was to have it count as dead money against the cap or the cap penalty via dumping it (trying to avoid the dead money hit). The net/net of it all, courtesy of the cap penalty, is the same result.

I'm no cap guy. And I did not stay at the Holiday Inn last night. While I have said, correctly I think, that the trade would not have given us any cap relief, I also believe that...
1. The trade still should have happened because it got us a higher pick than we ultimately settled for. And it would have gotten rid of someone who was poison on the roster, out of town. Shamahan's monstrosity of an ego cost us enough right there.
2. Even though the cap hit would have still been accelerated, the way the guaranteed money is spread equally over the life of the contract, it would not have been for the full $41mil. Deduct whatever 2years would take care of, and that would be the number, I think. Then, if you didn't add Hall's deal, what I THINK could have been done, would have been eating one year of dead money. Even if that year was $20mil, 1 year of $20mil, beats the shit out of 2 at $16mil.

Bottom line, when you look at it all together, I believe Shammy made a bad situation worse. Much worse even. And therefore bares the majority of the blame. I can't see it any other way.

 

[tshile]

Well yeah, if you pull out Hall's money then the hit is less than 36 million. (part of the penalty money was the money we dumped from Hall's contract)

If you want to criticise him for not getting more in return by trading him earlier, I have no issue with that. Shanahan seems to like to destroy players then try to trade them, which I don't get.

But the money problems caused by those contracts was caused by Snyder and Cerrato. They made absurd contracts for the better part of 15 years. This is the best run (contract wise) this organization has been since Snyder took over.

 

[Ax]

Maybe so. But I believe they (ShanAllen) made it worse by trying an end around. It was illegal IMO for the other owners to do what they did, but it was ShanAllen's job to read the tea leaves and make the decision. They screwed up. Adding a bowl of shit stew, to an existing shit sandwich, making it tougher to eat the whole meal.

When they didn't have to.

 

[Elephant]

You're right that the blame lies on Shanahan for the money being accelerated into those two years instead of over the life of the contracts, which it would have been if they were kept the way they were.

I never said Cerrato did not have a hand in this. I am fully aware of the complete mess he made. Never said otherwise.

But it appears you finally understand that the money was owed, one way or the other. It may not be your point, but it is mine. Shanahan didn't allocate that money to Haynesworth or Hall - Cerrato and Snyder did. That money was owed, one way or the other, to those two players. The cap penalty wasn't mystically created out of thin air - the Redskins tried to move it off the books, and The League put it back on the books via penalty since they couldn't take money away from the players and make the skins pay it via the original contracts.

I always knew money was owed....I also knew that we could have maneuvered that money in a different way had we not gotten caught with our pants down. Sure the money was owed...I never argued it wasn't. My argument from the beginning has always been that Shanahan was responsible for the penalty...regardless of the mess he inherited. He played a bad hand badly. And he is to blame for the penalty. Cerrato...asswhipe that he is...does not go unnoticed for the complete waste he is. I also recall the 3rd round pick we could have had for Fat AL, part of the discussion being missed, and the vague recollection of the money TN was willing to eat. And I am sure we would not have eaten 21 million in 2 years.

Snyder and Cerrato really ****ed this organization up. Shanahan needs to go, but how quickly some of you have forgotten about how completely ****ed up this organization was is honestly worrisome.

This is what I just don't get about your arguments at times. Because we find Shanahan responsible for poor decisions, and he is, does not mean we absolve Vinnie friggin Cerrato of his part in all of this. Because we find Shanahan to have made a mess os the mess he inherited, you automatically assume people forget. You're not the one who has a shiver up his spine every time he scans through the radio channels in their car while driving in the Baltimore market to have it land on Vinnie's talk show with Rob Thomas. I cringe when i hear that weasel discuss football. I want to punch him in his ear for what he did here!

 

[tshile]

But you're the one that said Shanahan has left things worse off than he found them.

Sorry, but it paints your whole anti-Shanahan crusade as being completely misguided to me. Maybe I just read entirely too much into that statement, but combined with everything else that's how it came across.

 

[Elephant]

But you're the one that said Shanahan has left things worse off than he found them.

Sorry, but it paints your whole anti-Shanahan crusade as being completely misguided to me. Maybe I just read entirely too much into that statement, but combined with everything else that's how it came across.

Worse may have been the wrong term, but better is not accurate either. We are in the same boat were were 4 years ago. We need to rebuild from the top of the organization down. We are not simply a few parts away. The only thing I see differently is we have a QB who could/should be a franchise guy. But we are a 3 ring circus and Shanahan has plenty of blame for it.

 

[tshile]

A week ago I would have argued with you until I was blue in the face over that. At this point, I have no defense nor desire to defend this regime. It appears clear to me that Shanahan is the result of these leaks (just like he was the result of the leaks over the offseason about Griffin that everyone wanted to write off as just media BS) and despite my contempt for Griffin's ego, attitude, and apparent authority in the organization he's the one that's here to stay and the one that our immediate (~10 years) future is going to depend on. So good riddance to Shanahan if he's going to continue to attack Griffin. Short of getting rid of Snyder, I feel it's in our best interest.

Contract/roster wise, while we all hate the state of the O and D line and in general there's a lot of criticism to be had on the talent level, I think we're infinitely better off than we ever were under Cerrato And Snyder (yes, the bar was that ****ing low). When Shanahan took over EVERYONE had to go; there's a good argument to be made that keeping Davis and Orakpo was a bad idea. With a new staff next year there's a good chance majority of the roster will stay. We'll see.

 

[TomE]

Yeah, pretty amazing how the tenor of emotion bleeds away in different directions.

I understand some folks have disdain for Shanny and take pride in "I told you so" childishness but the financial moves made by the FO causing the cap hit were made within the "rules" of the game the owners were playing but subsequent manipulations of those rules changed that game. (or do we forget the collusion arguments, the "gentlemen's agreement" and the bending over by the players group during the situation?)

When Shanny came in we needed a strong presence at HC to counteract the culture of the 'get your pockets straight in DC'.
Haynesworth represented the very worst scenario, the Skins had to pay the money one way or another so they moved it to where they thought they could clean the slate during the uncapped year. Many locals praised the financial move, the owners apparently hated it and acted to punish.

Maybe Shanny thought he could handle Haynesworth and get him going but as soon as the player got his money he did whatever he could 'within the rules' to challenge the HC and Shanny pushed back. Shanny's ego? You bet. Did he need to establish who's boss, you're damn right... because that's exactly what the team needed for the likes of Haynesworth and the culture he represented.

As far as the current state of the team, I'm totally baffled but the primary issue I see is once again the Snyder factor and his propensity to engage players beyond the typical owner/player relationship. These relationships are known to undermine the authority of those below the owner, Shanny, I presume saw this and knowing Snyder's track record thought 'here we go again' and reportedly was ready to forgo that $14M in paychecks by quitting.

Shanny is now probably covering his ass as most folks do in situations deemed less than fair and out of direct control, vis-a-vis the owner coddling players.
His ego can handle player betrayal but owner betrayal might be a little beyond his comfort zone and he's pushing back.

Shanny's record and current state of the team most likely merits dismissal but we cannot dismiss the timing of events and the actions of the league and owner when analyzing 'what went wrong' as irrelevant.

I suspect that had the 'plan' gone to script as written, the state of the team would be significantly different, we will never know now will we?

 

[CounterTrey]

Boy this one is awful tough to guage since we are 100% reliant on second hand information. That said between John Keim's crying foul over the leaks and much of the misinformation and some of the other things I've learned from afar, I have a hard time putting any blame for our current situation on Snyder except for the initial hiring of Shanahan.

Check out this and other articles by Keim recently:

When you talk to people close to Griffin, it's clear he is tired of how his relationship with Snyder has been portrayed, that they're not as close as the stories suggest and don't talk often, especially during the season. Snyder was knocked in the past for chummy relationships with players; it created a hierarchy that others in the locker room did not like at all. Snyder hasn't created a winning organization and he has done a lot that can be criticized because he has presided over seven 10-loss seasons and only three 10-win seasons. Maybe he never builds one. But in this case, he has done what Shanahan wants in terms of building the bubble and moving camp to Richmond, among other moves. And it's safe to say Griffin also knows that, fair or not, any move involving Shanahan will stain him in the short term (and if they hire Art Briles, it will do so even more, a lot more). It's also true that the other young players on the roster are having a tough time with all the stories and distractions. The veterans? They've seen worse.

Five thoughts: Washington Redskins coaching situation, Mike Shanahan - ESPN

and then check out this:

If you listened to the post game shows today, you wouldn’t know that Mike Shanahan has led his team to a 3-10 record. You wouldn’t know that his record as Redskins head coach is 24-37. You wouldn’t know that his roster, as constructed, is poor to put nicely and downright terrible and embarrassing to be blunt and honest.



You won’t know that his coaching staff is a mess. That the only reason defensive coordinator Jim Haslett still has a job was because, to get back into the NFL, he was willing to forgo autonomy to Mike Shanahan (meanwhile, the other candidate, Mike Zimmer, is coordinating one of the NFL’s top defenses). You wouldn’t know that Bob Slowik, a below average coach, was shoved into a role as linebacker coach, a role he’d never held before. You wouldn’t know that that the Redskins have had 3 wide receiver coaches in four years, none of whom had coaching experience, and in the case of Mike McDaniels, had only previously experiences coaching running backs.



You wouldn’t that Mike’s had complete control of the franchise for four years, with absolutely zero input from principal owner Daniel Snyder. That the team is constructed entirely of players he chose. That, though he was certainly screwed, he played a key role in the Redskins getting a $36 million dollar cap hit, in large part because he wanted to get in a pissing contest with Albert Haynesworth...

Mike Shanahan's Brilliant Last Act as Redskins Coach; Making Everyone Forget He Sucked

It's a bit long but it's a good read and justified in it's scathing tone. I was never a huge Shanahan fan but I admit I was buying in after last season. If even a fraction is true it's time to once again cut bait. This time let Allen and Smith make the choice of head coach. If Allen isn't convinced then don't hire the guy!

 

[stevenaa]

The timing of this Rumor calls into question the validity of it. Was Snyder's relationship with Griffing out of the ordinary? Was it undermining the coach? There's no fact based data that tells us this is the case. Owners and franchise QB's have relationships. Do we really believe Snyder was overruling Shanahan in regards to Griffin. I don't. There's too much at stake and too much to lose by doing so.

 

[CounterTrey]

Oh and one thing I found fascinating and thought the total opposite about was:

Mike just wasn’t given a fair shot with an owner like Dan Snyder, giving him the keys to the team and organization, moving his office out of the building and basically watching Mike ruin it. How unfair to Mike.

The common theme is Dan is so hands on he's the only owner with his office in the teams headquarters...turns out that hasn't been true for 4 years.

 

[Ax]

Yeah, but bashing Snyder is sport for some. He's made himself an easy target with his past. For some, even a Super Bowl won't change that.

 

[tshile]

Oh and one thing I found fascinating and thought the total opposite about was:


The common theme is Dan is so hands on he's the only owner with his office in the teams headquarters...turns out that hasn't been true for 4 years.

That was supposedly the first thing Allen and Shanahan did. Block him from direct contact with players.

 

[Bulldog]

Griffin is never going to trust the process because his coordinator is the Coach's son.

Who does Griffin have to vent his frustration to when he gets upset at his own performance or others?

The answer seems to be Snyder.

But, unlike Portis, I would blame this player-owner dynamic at least in part on Shanahan himself.

It's a conflict of interest to have family that close in the coaching ranks within an organization.

Gibbs, Walsh, Parcells, other successful coaches never conducted things this way.

And neither did Shanahan until he landed here.

 

[Burgundy Burner]

Heck, I remember when Shanahan was hired with an immediate caveat for the owner. Bruce Allen did the introduction and asked DS to have a seat in the audience and nothing more. It was a show of sorts to demonstrate that the football side of operations would be run by the football people. Nothing has changed since day one of Shanahan's hiring. I've actually been impressed with Dan Snyder's patience (including the last forty-eight hours) since late December 2009.

The old Dan Snyder would've fired this coach after the first two seasons or by Sunday night at the latest. I do believe that this owner finally gets it and can cement that thought with the hiring of a football GM sometime soon.

 

[Bulldog]

Once again I bring up the ugly truth that Shanahan the coach was brought down most by Shanahan the GM.

 

[DieselPwr44]

And I don't believe any competent GM could turn around a roster in 4 yrs. that has been mismanaged for 15 years, especially when when you've had a lockout and 18 million chopped off your cap in three out of four years here.

4 yrs here would be a hard pull even if you got 4 normal offseasons.

To illustrate ... we once went 20 years without spending ONE draft pick in rounds 1-3 on a DE.

Orakpo broke that string and Cerrato tried his best to give up picks to jump two spots to get him.

Shanny's not perfect, but he's been given horse apples and told to make chicken salad.

 

[Elephant]

And I don't believe any competent GM could turn around a roster in 4 yrs. that has been mismanaged for 15 years, especially when when you've had a lockout and 18 million chopped off your cap in three out of four years here.

4 yrs here would be a hard pull even if you got 4 normal offseasons.

To illustrate ... we once went 20 years without spending ONE draft pick in rounds 1-3 on a DE.

Orakpo broke that string and Cerrato tried his best to give up picks to jump two spots to get him.

Shanny's not perfect, but he's been given horse apples and told to make chicken salad.

Only he didn't take the horse apples to grow the celery, onions and to cultivate the grain to feed the chickens to grow enough to become good and plump for the chicken salad. Instead, added more horse apples he acquired himself. Tyler Polumbus, Chris Chester, Kory Lichtensteiger, Josh LeRiebus, Donovan McCrapp, Larry Johnson, what were the other names of the RB's vets he had? He took a solid, but aging defense and turned it into trash., bypassing the rebuild we really needed at the time...offense. That was a 2 year setback alone!

The Detriot Lions were far worse off than we were when they finally dumped Matt Millen. Now they are a solid team with potential. They have surpassed us in talent and respectability and they did it in only 3 years. Not great, but they are playing for their division again this year.