ESPN: Shanahan was ready to quit in '12

[Chris]

He hired a coach, a coach who had already failed holding the exact same positions for his last team for 7-8 years. He won SB's with an established team that already had a GM then when he felt big enough he took over those duties and played a similar game as Snyderatto at the same time they played it. He was slightly better at it but still won no more Playoff games than Gibbs did in his 4 years but Shanahan failed for over an entire decade. Now he comes here and people act surprised to see the same sort of cluster****.

I wasn't a fan of Shanahan being the selection, but then I don't remember any diamonds being considered (or available).

Most really good coaches are gainfully employed. That leaves 3 choices: a recycled former NFL head coach, an up-and-coming NFL assistant, or a college coach. Pretty much a crap shoot whichever way you go. Snyder choose door #1.

Okay- *poof* - I'm now the owner. Give me a top notch, experienced GM (money be damned), keep Allen as Chief Ambassador and head contract finagler, and hire David Shaw as the coach.

You're welcome.

 

[tshile]

Allen does a good job with the picnics and the pants.
He should stay.

 

[Chris]

I can see Snyder getting fingers pointed at him for many, many things.

But, doing so because he flew RG3 in his plane to see Dr. Andrews?

Really?

 

[fansince62]

DS could cure a lot if his own and the Redskins ills by just communicating openly. But he hates and distrusts the media more than any public figure out there. Some of that is for good reason. But it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you don't speak to issues in a crisis, the media and others are going to fill in the gaps as they see fit, create their own explanations, etc...

The healthiest thing Snyder could have done this week would have been to come out with Shanahan and address the media together. Snyder is truly his own worst enemy.

Disagree.

I can recognize disinformation when I see it - and that's what the media has been doing since early last Summer - one reason we have so many competing narratives on what is going on. It will all persist - especially through 3 more losses - no matter what Snyder says. Snyder's best course is to lay low, let the coach execute his responsibilities, and wait for the off-season to start. then, after a week or so of check-outs and season appraisal, and only then, perhaps grant an in-depth "state of the franchise" interview with some trusted, non-agenda driven interviewer who asks the tough questions fairly.

Boone, not an exact parallel, but in the middle of a failing battle, does the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff go on television and state "yea….it's really f'd up right now. Heads are going to roll until we get this fixed." or does he quietly, through command channels, summon the underlings and ask "what are you doing? why isn't it working? let me restate the goals and objectives for you. we'll talk this over once this battle is done. the campaign, in the end, is what matters."

The media are going to fill in their own gaps - REGARDLESS.

This isn't a crisis. A large measure of it is manufactured drama. It's a crappy team suffering through a crappy season. So, you regroup, figure out the way ahead during the off-season, form a plan, and execute that plan. This team has been buffeted by a lot of external burdens that had to have thrown previous plans seriously off center-line.

I have been with this team for a long, long time. Getting pretty tired myself of all the non-sense. that said, you don't repair your own house by burning it down and throwing yourself and family to the street corner (especially in the Winter!). you regroup, figure out where the foundation is weak, figure out where modernization is needed, form a plan, find the resources and execute the friggin plan! that's all you can do. sometimes you succeed. sometimes you fail. that's what the Skins are going to do. Snyder's role is to provide the stability and guidance that leads all to understand that that is the off-season game plan. It's not his responsibility to go on TV and stick knives in his and Shanahan's (or RG's) backs so the media pirañas have their weekly melodrama to fill the airwaves with what, after all, is 90 to 99% absolutely braindead, un-illuminating drivel.

that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

 

[Boone]

When your head coach is on the verge of being fired in-season after coaching a division winner the season before, that's a crisis. The media didn't manufacture that

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Tshile, your argument against my method of building a team in fact reinforced it.

guys like rodgers, wilson, keapernick, alex smith, tom brady, all have one thing in common, they all went to teams with solid olines and players around them, as well as teams with good defences. and none of them cost their team multiple high round picks. your assertion that franchise qbs arent easy to find is correct, but you ignore one very important factor, even a franchise talent can be ruined, david carr is a recent example that i go back to, highly touted, but not given any help, took a hellacious beating early in his career and was never the same. thats why its not just recommended you build your oline first its a requiremnet, and if you have to wait a season or 3 for a franchise qb you throw a few mid rounders at guys like wilson and keapernick while you continue to stockpile talent. if you are lucky, you find a diamond in the rough, if you arent you still have first round talent filling holes. instead we now have a franchise qb who is not playing well because he has no confidence anymore

 

[Ax]

For all those fretting over what the national media says/reports about our team.

Many Redskins fans were less than enamored with, or simply did NOT want Shamahan in the first place. I'd even go so far as to say 50%.

However, I don't remember a single national mediot that didn't think it was the perfect move for the Redskins. And that Snyder was finally doing it "the right way". Putting "real football people in charge", etc...

So what ****ing credibility do they have that deserves this yearning to be thought of positively by them?

The media are the only people that lie/mislead/misinform as much as politicians. Their goal is to stir people into a frenzy so they'll write, call, email, facebook, tweet, or just send up smoke signals, to generate ad sales. Period. They don't give a hoot in hell about our team, or any of us. We are just currently the "fill in the blank" story. They have convinced too many people that what they say/do matters.

It just doesn't.

 

[fansince62]

When your head coach is on the verge of being fired in-season after coaching a division winner the season before, that's a crisis. The media didn't manufacture that

and there is no evidence at all that Shanahan was on the verge of being fired in season. can't remember where, but I recall reading a piece a few days ago where Snyder is quoted as saying that his biggest blunder was firing norval with 3 games to go. that that was a blunder he would never repeat. once again….the media starts a rumor ("a leak from inside X's or Y's camp") and the speculation begins. it's all a side show. think about it. you think Shanahan is plotting his retreat now or trying to win 3 more games? what's more important to him? money or his reputation? do any of us know his relationship with Snyder? do any of us know what communications Snyder has had with Shanahan over the last 2 mos? most of this is pointless pot stirring. Shanahan is accountable for the poor product on the field. he knows it. Snyder wants a winning team. current pathetic performance notwithstanding, the team has improved from where it was under the last coach. they have been hampered personnel-wise - the roster is not over-run with talent. they need to examine why, figure out the mistakes, make the fixes and not repeat the mistakes.

 

[Chris]

I've never been privy to the inner workings of an NFL locker room, so I'll take your word for it.

I have worked in numerous professional environments though and been the owner of one for over 20 years. In my experience most employees understand that there are varying degrees of value placed on individuals within the work place that is based on many things. Importance to the success of the operation being at the top. Can that result at times in petty jealousy? Sure, particularly with those who overvalue their own contribution. That doesn't mean that those in the position of leadership should necessarily alter the ideal course of action in order to spare the feelings of those that don't understand the big picture.

Griffin was clearly the most important player on the team at the end of the season. Getting him to Alabama in comfort quickly in order to tend to his damaged knee should have been job #1 for this franchise, not buying him a coach ticket on Jet Blue and wishing him the best.

Rocket science indeed.

 

[fansince62]

I had no problem with it...but, I could see how some of RGIII's injured teammates might.

An NFL team is like an office. There's office politics. There's preferential treatment. There's petty jealousy.

This isn't rocket science.

and there's the common sense idea that franchise QBs are treated differently.

 

[fansince62]

So, everything is cool between Shanahan and Snyder?

This is all made up?



Who is denying a rift other than some folks in this forum? Certainly neither Shanny nor Snyder.

I'm seeing MS going out of his way to NOT deny it. And, Snyder has fired shots from his camp (about the training facilities, etc.) And, the story about DS trying to fire MS for cause to avoid paying him was put together in some reporter's fantasy?

Right.

This will all end the same way it usually does...with Snyder ponying up hush money so no one will ever know what the circus looked like from inside.

I guess fantasy football has all sorts of meanings these days!

when the going gets tough……

addendum: "so everything is cool between…" = useless assertion. suppose it isn't. wow - history is being made! never happened before. what conclusions do you draw? you can't draw any cuz you have no idea.

pls enlighten all of us: what is the specific nature of their relationship? what purring words of endearment have been exchanged over the last several mos? don't forget your sources! need to be first hand. ought to be verified by the actual participants.

"The Russians are coming! The Russians are coming!"

"Mr Mustard, in the locker-room, with a knife"

 

[tshile]

guys like rodgers, wilson, keapernick, alex smith, tom brady, all have one thing in common, they all went to teams with solid olines and players around them, as well as teams with good defences.

... solid organizations with a real GM that believed in building through the draft?

is that what you meant?

i don't disagree with your overall plan at all, that's why I said it's great and all (i wasn't being as sarcastic as that reads.) i think most people, on this board and in general, agree with your way of doing things. i just disagree with the implication that it's easy and anyone can do it. if it were nearly as easy as you write it out then we wouldn't have franchises sucking for decades, we wouldn't have the powershifts we have in the NFL over periods of time..

i just think this idea of "build an o line, then go get your franchise qb" is completely neglecting the fact that getting your franchise QB is much harder than that sentence implies. Most teams luck into their franchise QB by building the way you said - but it certainly doesn't guarantee anything - how many QB's do we see get called franchise QB's and they don't do a damned thing of significance for their franchise over 10 years?

in fact, almost all of the touted prospects fail. look at how many #1 #1 QB's we've seen fail over the last few years. (there's many interesting arguments to why that is, including the fact that most times they're going to really bad organizations)

at the end of the day, the absolute best chance at building a successful organization is having a competent GM who understand patience and has an eye for talent. with that setup time becomes on your side, eventually you'll accumulate enough talent to be a solid, year-in-year-out competitor; with a little luck in some key places you'll be there much quicker, or stay there much longer.

but just acquiring your franchise QB is not cut and dry "Ok, we've built up our O Line over the last 2 or 3 years, now lets go get that franchise QB!", and even the above method isn't a sure thing.

 

[Goaldeje]

Yeah. I'm pretty sure Jacksonville didn't draft Gabbert with the thought he was going to be the worst starting QB in the league in year three. Pretty sure they thought he was a franchise QB. They whiffed (badly), and now their OLine is three years older (with some players having been traded if memory serves), and probably ready to get the hell out of dodge given how bad that team has been.

It sounds great on paper Ry, but I think in reality finding a franchise QB is a little more difficult than you're giving it credit for.

 

[Boone]

Well, pointing to a stretch where teams luck into gems outside the first several picks like Wilson, Kaepernick, etc as if that's 'the norm', I'm not buying that. Coaches often live and die by WHO they hitch their star to under center, not just picking 'who's available'. In some ways what we have seen us entirely predictable. We all should have expected a delay in our teams progress due to the cost of RG3 and the cap penalty. Our surprise success fooled most of us into believing we could escape that delay.

 

[fansince62]

Yeah. I'm pretty sure Jacksonville didn't draft Gabbert with the thought he was going to be the worst starting QB in the league in year three. Pretty sure they thought he was a franchise QB. They whiffed (badly), and now their OLine is three years older (with some players having been traded if memory serves), and probably ready to get the hell out of dodge given how bad that team has been.

It sounds great on paper Ry, but I think in reality finding a franchise QB is a little more difficult than you're giving it credit for.

me thinks there's truth in what all have you state. common sense suggests a lot of this is situationally dependent. Ry is right: if a team i starting from square one, blowing it all up, that is the wise course to follow. and if a team has pieces and assesses the missing ingredient is the QB (at a point in time - i.e., its maturation) then you draft QB. luck of the draw what is available that year and a teams draft/trade resources. strategies can vary.

I agree that getting that franchise QB trumps most everything else. but Ry is correct to observe that it is not the only path to success. there are teams (KC) that settle for managers rather than franchise QBs…and do quite well.

 

[fansince62]

Yeah. I'm pretty sure Jacksonville didn't draft Gabbert with the thought he was going to be the worst starting QB in the league in year three. Pretty sure they thought he was a franchise QB. They whiffed (badly), and now their OLine is three years older (with some players having been traded if memory serves), and probably ready to get the hell out of dodge given how bad that team has been.

It sounds great on paper Ry, but I think in reality finding a franchise QB is a little more difficult than you're giving it credit for.

me thinks there's truth in what all of you state. common sense suggests a lot of this is situationally dependent. Ry is right: if a team i starting from square one, blowing it all up, that is the wise course to follow. and if a team has pieces and assesses the missing ingredient is the QB (at a point in time - i.e., somewhere between starting over and full maturation) then you draft QB. luck of the draw what is available that year and a teams draft/trade resources. strategies can vary.

I agree that getting that franchise QB trumps most everything else. but Ry is correct to observe that it is not the only path to success. there are teams (KC) that settle for managers rather than franchise QBs…and do quite well.

 

[Goaldeje]

FS, I think "situationally dependent" is probably the most important phrase in your post. The idea that the only way to build a winner is through the trenches first and all else follows is too simplistic, imo. In an ideal world, Ry is probably absolutely correct, but coming off our 2011 season with Sexy passing out INTs like candy, we had a high draft pick, and I suspect the staff decided they needed someone more... um, reliable than Sexy to even approach a professional offense. Our OLine proved adroit enough at run blocking, and perhaps Mike and Kyle thought they could adjust to compensate for pass blocking? A miscalculation to be sure.

Anyway, all that was to say, I like your wording.

 

[tshile]

Well, pointing to a stretch where teams luck into gems outside the first several picks like Wilson, Kaepernick, etc as if that's 'the norm', I'm not buying that. Coaches often live and die by WHO they hitch their star to under center, not just picking 'who's available'. In some ways what we have seen us entirely predictable. We all should have expected a delay in our teams progress due to the cost of RG3 and the cap penalty. Our surprise success fooled most of us into believing we could escape that delay.

I agree that last years success has amplified the disappointment of this year.

but...

if when shanahan was hired, despite all the groaning most of us were doing (as has been discussed), i think majority of people agreed that the idea of a 5 year plan made sense, that the team was so dysfunctional and beyond repair that we had to turn over the entire roster, bring in a new staff, switch over completely to younger players that needed time to develop, etc etc etc.

do you think most people would have accepted somewhere in the 3-13 to 6-10 range as the result of the 4th year? we're talking about a lot of hindsight and trying to not fall into the trap of revisionist history, but is that really acceptable for a 4th year? is that realistic?

i don't know. this team was really bad off when shanahan came here, i don't deny that. i still don't know if that is acceptable.
if this team had finished this year 8-8, hell 7-9, i think 90% of this nonsense is avoided. but another double digit loss season? it's hard to swallow.

 

[Goaldeje]

I agree that last years success has amplified the disappointment of this year.

but...

if when shanahan was hired, despite all the groaning most of us were doing (as has been discussed), i think majority of people agreed that the idea of a 5 year plan made sense, that the team was so dysfunctional and beyond repair that we had to turn over the entire roster, bring in a new staff, switch over completely to younger players that needed time to develop, etc etc etc.

do you think most people would have accepted somewhere in the 3-13 to 6-10 range as the result of the 4th year? we're talking about a lot of hindsight and trying to not fall into the trap of revisionist history, but is that really acceptable for a 4th year? is that realistic?

i don't know. if this team ahd finished this year 8-8, hell 7-9, i think 90% of this nonsense is avoided. but another double digit loss season? it's hard to swallow.

The ONLY caveat I would throw in to your assertion is Griffin's injury. Having said that, it's not the record that matters to me that much (though it is definitely disappointing), as much as the lack of progress, particularly late in the season. I didn't want to believe it, but I think I knew on some level that starting out the season was going to be rough. But I am not convinced the team as a whole is playing better now than they did in September.

That's on the coach, imo.

 

[tshile]

The ONLY caveat I would throw in to your assertion is Griffin's injury. Having said that, it's not the record that matters to me that much (though it is definitely disappointing), as much as the lack of progress, particularly late in the season. I didn't want to believe it, but I think I knew on some level that starting out the season was going to be rough. But I am not convinced the team as a whole is playing better now than they did in September.

That's on the coach, imo.

That's fair. And I agree, despite the organizational problems there appears to be a serious problem with the coach and his ability to motivate players. They're not playing like a football team, much less a winning football team.

I have no idea what the right answer is. What the truth is. I'm so beyond being angry at this point that it's now like a depressed feeling.

It almost doesn't even matter what the right answer or the truth is, because regardless of what it is I have zero faith in the ability of this organization to take the right step moving forward.