ESPN Redskin Name Article

[Jugband McGillicuddy]

1/16th? Really?

Well someone PAY this 1/8th Cherokee!!

 

[Ax]

Its not okay to walk around saying or wearing one on your clothes, so why should the other be okay? That's the point.

But you can walk around with a shirt that says anything you want. As you should be. You just have to accept the consequences of doing so.

I see it as the ultimate "free speech" example.

 

[Ax]

And yet, Ax, for all the excesses, there is merit in the concept. I don't think I've ever met anyone who is against eliminating racism and bigotry. The problem is identifying true incidents of it from the noise of "pop culture" (for lack of a better term), and having done so, figuring out exactly what to do about it.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Your post of who gets to answer the many questions was most excellent.

 

[Shi no Tenshi]

Tax free casinos..where they get a check every single month for doing NOTHING if they register and can prove they are 1/16 of that tribe. Yeah, the days of feeling bad for a race that is now profiting hand over fist are LONG gone.

That is such a small minority of tribes that get anything like that. Most reservations are much worse off. Hell, many tribes have specifically changed so that you must be 1/4 blood to be counted. My tribe has recently received money from the government (owed for stealing land back in the day and all that), and because of the freeloaders you are describing, are purging the tribal rolls of anybody who is not at least 1/4 blood.

I agree that at some point the burden needs to be put on the tribes themselves for what they have done to themselves. They need to be sure to stand on their own. At the same time, look at it as this: this is what happens to people when you put them in a situation where they have no ability to grow. Look at how many families are, if they are confined to a small low income, low resource patch of land for over 100 years. They tend to be the poorest people in the country.

I would say this: if they are fighting so hard to get rid of the name because of it's perceived offensiveness, then they should have an alternative for it that still highlights Natives. One of the things I love about the fact that the team exists is it's a bit of color in a white-washed sector. It actually stands as proof of the fact that we existed. I see any attempt to change it away from a Native reference as erasing us a little more from history, and pushing knowledge to extinction. Any Native should be able to see that. If they think Redskins is so damn offensive, they sure as hell should have an alternative that is "acceptable" but still shows the proper intent.

I am in agreement with Om, in that I don't think all the whiners in this would be able to agree on anything. Somebody would always find it offensive.

 

[Boone]

My Dad once offered his grandkids $25 to use foul language. No one took him up on it. His point (he was an incredibly bright attorney, wordsmith, and student of the english language) was that words are just words. We shouldn't be afraid of them. There are no bad words, only bad sentiments behind the words. Were I to use the 'N word' (with apologies to Ax), to discuss the history of the 'N word', or even to decry someone else's use of the 'N word', how is that any less 'offensive' than any other use of the word?

It's not.

Words are words. Ideas can be ugly, hurtful, offensive. Words? They're just words.

My opinion.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

My Dad once offered his grandkids $25 to use foul language. No one took him up on it. His point (he was an incredibly bright attorney, wordsmith, and student of the english language) was that words are just words. We shouldn't be afraid of them. There are no bad words, only bad sentiments behind the words. Were I to use the 'N word' (with apologies to Ax), to discuss the history of the 'N word', or even to decry someone else's use of the 'N word', how is that any less 'offensive' than any other use of the word?

It's not.

Words are words. Ideas can be ugly, hurtful, offensive. Words? They're just words.

My opinion.

I respectfully disagree. Some words are loaded with negativity, regardless of context. The N-word is one of them. It also depends on perspective; the question we have to ask is do we want to disregard someone else's perspective?

I know how I feel when I read or hear the 'N-word,' no matter the context. I'm sure most on this board will write that off as white guilt or some other silly notion, but If there are people out there who feel the same way about the word 'Redskins,' well then maybe we should change the name.

 

[tshile]

I agree with om and to an extent I actually agree with you too lanky. The problem for me is that it took so long for anyone to come forward and claim they were offended. I have no problem respecting the feelings of others but I think motive plays a role in judging those feelings. To me the motive isn't about a racist name. But maybe I'm just ignorant to it

 

[Ax]

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

Children used to grow up reciting this little ditty, every day. Because it is the undeniable truth.

Words only hurt, if we allow them to. People are so ridiculously sensitive these days. We over-focus on completely useless, menial BS, instead of things that might actually improve something. Why? Because going after these meaningless acts of symbolism, has somehow gained more value, in the eyes of the self professed, "more enlightened/intellectual/advanced crowd", than actually trying to tackle the REAL problems in the world. Which require actual work, and effort.

Then, they all sit around congratulating themselves for it.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

I agree with om and to an extent I actually agree with you too lanky. The problem for me is that it took so long for anyone to come forward and claim they were offended. I have no problem respecting the feelings of others but I think motive plays a role in judging those feelings. To me the motive isn't about a racist name. But maybe I'm just ignorant to it

This is a good point also - but I don't think it necessarily took them this long, we just live in a different age with social media, and news everywhere, 24/7. It might have been exactly the same back then, it just wasn't as widely reported. Who knows?

 

[Ax]

This is a good point also - but I don't think it necessarily took them this long, we just live in a different age with social media, and news everywhere, 24/7. It might have been exactly the same back then, it just wasn't as widely reported. Who knows?

That, and the media, who love to push this kind of thing, make it seem like a bigger movement than it is.

I'd be surprised if the folks who are truly concerned about the issue, aren't equaled in number, by the media people/institutions covering it.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

I agree with Boone that words are just words, that said, I avoid using certain words, like the N word, the C word and other words that really bother people, however I do say Indian all the time, and as an Indian I dont find it offensive, I always look at the context of a discussion before manufacturing some outrage lol, if someone says " hey Ryan are you an indian?" I find that non offensive they are simply using recognised language and not trying to offend me.

 

[Neophyte]

I respectfully disagree. Some words are loaded with negativity, regardless of context. The N-word is one of them. It also depends on perspective; the question we have to ask is do we want to disregard someone else's perspective?

I know how I feel when I read or hear the 'N-word,' no matter the context. I'm sure most on this board will write that off as white guilt or some other silly notion, but If there are people out there who feel the same way about the word 'Redskins,' well then maybe we should change the name.

Everything is loaded with something in someone's opinion. To me, and pretty much everyone I know, the term "Redskin" carries zero negativity (unless, of course, that person is a Cowboys fan). Where is the threshold?

I see women out every day with cleavage on display and I know a lot of people who consider it offensive and inappropriate. Should we make women cover it up?

I know a lot of people who think alcohol is not just offensive but dangerous. Should we return to the days of prohibition?

Boone's father was right. Words are just words and should be treated as such. If no one gets offended by a supposed slur, it stops being a slur. At one point the N word had a real meaning and legitimate use in everyday conversation that had nothing at all to do with the color of a person's skin. Society turned it into a slur and frankly, society has the power to return it to it's former place in the English language.

At this point, the term "Redskin" holds more meaning in terms of a sports team than as a racial slur. If people would shut up about it, it would retain that sports team context and the slur would be forgotten.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

One thing we can hopefully all agree on, is that the team's "defense" of the name has been fairly lacking. Either stand behind the tradition with no explanation, or change it - trying to rationalize it makes you look bad, IMO. To me, it sounds like the "well I have black friends" defense to racism - irony.

http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/a...total_extinction_of_native_americans/12912478


As to the point that "everyone is offended" these days, and the country is getting more PC - I agree. But, the status quo is an ever-changing thing; 50 years ago, these things did not matter, but they do today. Just like those who can't wrap their heads around the gay marriage issue - the status quo is constantly evolving. If it stayed the same all the time, we wouldn't have a name for it. Gay-bashing was all the rage in the 50s and 60s; now its a hate crime.

Another thing to keep in mind is that we have a seriously altered perception of the name - which is 100% natural, due to the fact that we've been fervent followers of all aspects of the team since we were old enough to care. Of course there is a bond with the name. But its probably good to keep in mind just how much this point of view alters our perception of the offensiveness of the name.

 

[Shi no Tenshi]

As to the point that "everyone is offended" these days, and the country is getting more PC - I agree. But, the status quo is an ever-changing thing; 50 years ago, these things did not matter, but they do today. Just like those who can't wrap their heads around the gay marriage issue - the status quo is constantly evolving. If it stayed the same all the time, we wouldn't have a name for it. Gay-bashing was all the rage in the 50s and 60s; now its a hate crime.

Another thing to keep in mind is that we have a seriously altered perception of the name - which is 100% natural, due to the fact that we've been fervent followers of all aspects of the team since we were old enough to care. Of course there is a bond with the name. But its probably good to keep in mind just how much this point of view alters our perception of the offensiveness of the name.

I would say this: part of my argument is that it is not equivalent to something like gay bashing. I've seen one person say they were called a "dirty redskin" once, and I've been called a "dirty indian" before. Does that then make "indian" racist? Because of the dirty part? I fail to see the connection between "redskin" and actual epithets is all.

In response to the second bit...I didn't become a Redskin fan until my 20s. Didn't grow up with it. Hell, my mom has a signed picture of Tom Landry that she's very proud of. I'm weird, I know.

 

[Ax]

On the list of "Things That Will Improve The Lives of Indians", this subject is missing.

It's PC Bull Biscuits.

Locally, it's just part of the WP's personal "Get The Dan" campaign. Every other day another hack from the paper jumps in with their own ignorant take on the matter.

And Lanky, are you suggesting we could change the name to the Washington Same-Sexers?

 

[Lanky Livingston]

I would say this: part of my argument is that it is not equivalent to something like gay bashing. I've seen one person say they were called a "dirty redskin" once, and I've been called a "dirty indian" before. Does that then make "indian" racist? Because of the dirty part? I fail to see the connection between "redskin" and actual epithets is all.

In response to the second bit...I didn't become a Redskin fan until my 20s. Didn't grow up with it. Hell, my mom has a signed picture of Tom Landry that she's very proud of. I'm weird, I know.

Right, and that's valid. It was the first example that jumped into my head of the status quo changing, because its the most in the news and what not. Maybe a better example is little people? I don't know, I'm not sure how you compare different levels of offensive, which is part of the problem.

And Lanky, are you suggesting we could change the name to the Washington Same-Sexers?

Wouldn't be my vote, but I suppose they "could" change the name to most anything. I'm pretty sure "Same-Sexers" would not be considered, however.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Just a thought I had over the weekend: if words have no meaning other than what is behind them, and we shouldn't give them power, why do we have a filter here at all? The F-bomb is just a word, after all. Why do some people say gosh darn instead of god damn? They are just words, afterall - the sentiment behind them is the same.

The answer, in my opinion, is that some words are just not acceptable. To me, the N-word is far less acceptable to hear than an F-Bomb, the C-word is way worse than the P-word for female bits, etc. These are my opinions, and for the most part, they are shared by many people. This is why when out with your boss for dinner, you don't drop a bunch of curse words; because he will likely find them offensive. Well, there are people out there who find the word Redskin to be as offensive as these other words. Best I can explain it, I guess.

I do see the point that Shi No & Ryman are making - its not going to benefit the Native American by further hiding them from view. However, either way the plight of the Native American in this country will not be resolved, so I'm not really sure how relevant it is anyway.

Just a random thought...didn't want to clog up the Redskins Random Thought thread with name stuff.

 

[Shi no Tenshi]

Oh, I agree about filters. I personally see them as silly and needless. We all know what is being said. I do understand the desire to have such things blocked for viewing at work, however it is pretty much known what was blocked, and I personally prefer to see the full text.

I would say, in regards to the benefit issue, that I see neither keeping nor changing the name as being helpful to the Native American people. The main thing is: I see changing it, to something lame like "skins" or the like, as something somewhat harmful. The perception that it is a negative epithet that should be banned from all speech is silly, and not a single person will be helped by it in the way they are intending. It will not improve their lives in any measurable fashion.

Basically, if the point is to help people by making a change, then they should actually focus on making a worthwhile change, instead of a meaningless one.

 

[tshile]

Just a thought I had over the weekend: if words have no meaning other than what is behind them, and we shouldn't give them power, why do we have a filter here at all?

I'm not a mod or an owner of the site, but one reason can be to protect those viewing the site from work. It prevents those words from showing up in the history, especially when used in a thread title.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

I'm not a mod or an owner of the site, but one reason can be to protect those viewing the site from work. It prevents those words from showing up in the history, especially when used in a thread title.

Right, but why do you need to prevent that? They are just words, after all.