Commanders Coffee #6

Who are you firing first to try and salvage to 2022/23 season?

  • Scot Turner

    Votes: 2 33.3%
  • Jack Del Rio

    Votes: 4 66.7%

  • Total voters
    6

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Just three weeks into the Commanders' inaugural season and it is certainly getting pretty ugly. Ron Rivera is in what is considered a pivotal third year as head coach of the franchise and unfortunately, instead of making strides and major leaps forward right now, the ship appears to be sinking. It feels as though sooner or later, a desperation move might be made and somebody will be made a scapegoat for the team's overall poor play.

This week, we simply ask you the following:

If you are Ron Rivera and had to make one and only one coaching move to try and salvage the 2022/23 season, who are you firing? Scot Turner or Jack Del Rio?

Discuss and debate amongst yourselves.
 
We didn't lose because of JDR.
Not even close to being the case

Today, we didn't. Nobody is debating that. :)

The fact remains though that outside of the 2nd half of the season in 2020, Del Rio's unit has underperformed.

Simply curious to know how people feel - if you are Rivera, a gun is put to your head, and you have to make one change, which coordinator are you letting go of to give the best chance of salvaging the season in 2022/23? :)
 
Ron's just collecting a check, no fire anymore. I'd rather have interim random program guy than his quitting ass. His face shows he doesn't care, give me a coach that'll get in Turners face that he's on thin ice. Not some passive walk around with my arms crossed bullshit.
 
I suspect Snyder told them that winning is no longer the focus and they can do whatever the fuck they want as long as we make no publicity and finish around 8-9 or 7-10. After all he has a scandal to quash.
 
Were not getting close to 7 wins with this game plan. Coaches know they can suck and get paid. Plus the FO where is anyone that can block.
 
Were not getting close to 7 wins with this game plan. Coaches know they can suck and get paid. Plus the FO where is anyone that can block.
Bears, Texans, Cowboys, Falcons.

If the Giants lose Daniel Jones and Saquon to injury, the games might be winnable.

Even the Titans could have one of those days where Tannehill messes things up, even if they are unlikely.

Or Cleveland has another anti-mojo game where they just somehow know how to lose.

This team is just capricious enough that they'll always pull in one upset.
 
Ron's just collecting a check, no fire anymore. I'd rather have interim random program guy than his quitting ass. His face shows he doesn't care, give me a coach that'll get in Turners face that he's on thin ice. Not some passive walk around with my arms crossed bullshit.


Feels like a repeat story of coaches here.
Money is what brings them to DC.
And money is what makes them not care about the team results
 
Don't fool yourselves, we gave up a whole game's worth of offense to Hurts and Smith in the first half alone so the defense didn't do anything significant today. And I don't want to hear anything about how much they were on the field and how tired that makes you. They are pro athletes. If they are that tired after 30 minutes of game time, either they are in the wrong profession or our strength and conditioning program is the worst part of the on-field part of the franchise.

Today, I would have fired Turner before he left the coach's dressing room following the game. However, I personally would have had a new DC before the season started. JDR might have been great once but what he does no longer works.
 
Personally, after 3 games, I feel like this...

Scott Turner is safe. I wish they'd adjust playcalling sooner when it's clear the ship is sinking, but I think we saw a taster of what could be in the Jags game.
I think we have a strong set of WRs and TEs. We know Gibson and McKissic can be good, so I feel like the offense is being held back by two things. The O-Line and Evil-Wentz (you know when it's him as he has a goatee!)
I think our O-line is just woefully undertalented. Letting Flowers and Scherff go was a huge mistake, and trying to replace them on a shoestring hasn't worked out.
I think this group was always destined to be middle of the pack at best, even with great coaching.

Evil Wentz's bad tendencies then get amplified. Holding the ball too long isn't such an issue behind a sturdy O-line, but behind our tissue paper one... recipe for disaster. It likely doesn't help that it's his first three games in Turner's offense and he's still learning chemistry with the receivers.
My hope is that the offense will settle down eventually and find a rhythm, and this is something Turner needs to help with. Run the right plays to settle the offense in.

The Defense...well that's been a mess for a while now.
I feel like we have the talent, and we show it at times. When Chase comes back we could be really good. But at this point with the mistakes and miscommunications is it the coaching?
Or do we have a bunch of talented players that just can't bring consistency to the table?

Either way, I'd get rid of Del Rio. Apart from that first year, his defenses have not impressed. I honestly can't understand how we can be so bad at getting sacks and turnovers with the personnel we have! I know some of it is luck, but still...other teams manage it.
 
It's easy to call for peoples heads, but who are you replacing them with ? Who can walk in and do a better job ?
 
It's easy to call for peoples heads, but who are you replacing them with ? Who can walk in and do a better job ?
Fair point, sir. Pretty sure I can find a DC coaching high school ball here in Dallas to do JDR's job.
 
I think our current woes have a number of root causes. Ron Rivera teams have almost always started very slowly out the gate. I cannot shed any light on why that is the case, but it's pretty well-established at this point. You have to hammer coaching after two straight weeks of mostly ineptitude. This was a huge game, one where we should've been amped beyond belief to knock the smack-talking arrogant Eagles team down a notch or two. We were at home (yeah, I know - to the extent we have a 'home'), and it's Wentz against his former team. When you cannot get a team 'up' and ready for that, something is wrong. I said it mid-week, Rivera seems focused on a lot of activities that have nothing to do with next Sunday's game. He's not Joe Gibbs on that front.

One of my (and many others here) criticisms has been is that, while we've added some talent this offseason, we also let significant talent walk, and more importantly, made no effort to find upgrades at several spots. We took what's been a strength for us at the O line and made it an Achilles heel. That development alone may doom us in 2022, as no QB is going to have consistent success if the line cannot protect. It is not so much *who* we let go on defense, as sometimes you have to make tough roster decisions, but that we lost the depth that has allowed us to spell key starters throughout the game without a huge dropoff in performance. We are asking our starters to play nearly every snap right now. And I'm sorry, but that DOES impact how effective even very talented guys can be - regardless of how professional and gutsy some of them may be. It's inexcusable, in year 3 of a rebuild, to be creating roster weaknesses of your own damn volition. Good teams don't do that. It's a cliche, but it's also true. If you aren't getting better in the NFL, you're getting worse.

So - is it coaching? Is it talent? Is it both? Or are we just perpetually doomed to experience this kind of disappointment for the rest of our natural lives?

I lean towards the 'all of the above' option. Just remember when we blow it all up, and start over again for the gazillionth time, who it is that will be determining the next group of suckers trotted in to be saviours. All is not lost in 2022 and beyond - yet. But Rivera and company had better get something figured out in a hurry, or we may well be irrelevant by November and picking top 3 in the 2023 NFL Draft.
 
No excuse for it. You're the HC. I get that you want feedback from the booth, but at some point you have to see they are going to get a play off and throw the flag. We'll never know if a challenge there changes the dynamics of the rest of the game, but it certainly couldn't have come at a worse time and was a self-inflicted wound.
 
Ron Rivera, coaches and the front office have done a lot of the right things when it comes to the 'forms' of organization. We are no longer signing free agents to mega-bucks deals, we are resigning our own key players (Allen, McLaurin) without rancorous negotiations and finding some performers in the late rounds (Kurl - Round 7) of the draft.

So, we are no longer the laughingstock of the league other than the mop-up on Snyder's culpability for mismanagement prior to the time Rivera came in the door.

But that only means Washington has risen from the depths of despair to being a mediocre football team. It's become one of the anonymous teams in the NFL, whose highlights and lowlights now sometimes don't even make it onto ESPN or other sports recap shows.

What Washington has NOT done is show that the collective brain-trust in the front office and coaching staff are above average in their methods or the results obtained.

In the area of player personnel the team has made some key mistakes that has equated to one step forward, two steps back over the past 2 years.

In each case I think the 'need' was identified by the organization, but the selection of player and attempts at resolution have not shown themselves to be successful.

Examples:

Jamin Davis. The Commanders needed an impact linebacker and Micah Parsons was selected earlier in Round 1. We took Davis at #19 despite the fact linebackers after Parsons were not that highly rated for Round 1 in 2021. Davis rang every bell at the NFL Combine and workouts with his physical ability. But smart clubs saw that he was also very raw, having started just one season at Kentucky, a team that while in the Southeast is not a top echelon program. Davis to me had second round written over him but Washington pulled the trigger much earlier. That has come back to hurt the team as not only has Davis been predictably slow to transition to the NFL game based on his inexperience but the opportunity cost was that Washington didn't select impact player(s) that were closer to contributing.

William Jackson III. Again, the Commanders properly identified outside corner as a critical need for the defense after 2020. Jackson was sought after in free agency and has good size and speed and was 28, in his NFL prime. But what Washington did was take a player that excelled in man coverage and put him in a strict zone scheme where he was defending territory rather than the opposing player. For a man cover corner to be put into a zone scheme once he has established himself on the outside is a echo of what the team did with Josh Norman, a career zone corner thrust into a cover role with 4.6 speed. Fitting a round peg in a square hole. Instead of looking to perhaps use Jackson in man coverage on one side and zone the other side for Fuller as Richie did for DG and the team later did for Cris Dishman, Del Rio and the staff simply plugged him into what they were already doing and ignoring they were paying extra for that very man coverage on the outside.

Dyami Brown. Brown has shown absolutely nothing since being drafted and successful teams like the Chiefs and Ravens would have cut or traded Brown once we knew what we had in McLaurin and then drafted Dotson to go with Curtis Samuel. Brown is so limited, he not only doesn't rate reps on offense in the passing game but he doesn't return punts or kicks either. Instead we have a former #7 pick doing that. This was a blown #3 pick and while ALL clubs make draft mistakes, the key is to move on from them and not cover them up by keeping the player on the roster to avoid criticism.

DT depth. Here I have no problem with Allen's contract and I have no issues with the team hedging its bets on giving Payne a long-term extension for big dollars. Drafting Mathis in Round 2 was the right decision to make given the upcoming transition in 2023. The fact Mathis was injured so early in the season is unfortunate and you really can't blame the club here. HOWEVER, an NFL team usually carries 4, 5 or even 6 DTs (some are DE/DT combos). As backups behind Allen and Payne for 2022 with Mathis a rookie, Washington went cheap on the DL and has two fringe NFL players in Daniel Wise and Casey Toohill on the active roster. These players from what I see are practice squad level performers and were not going to be legitimate options to replace any of the top 3 if there were injuries. The team ignored the position in free agency almost completely when there were serviceable veterans available to bridge to 2023. So, now we are down to searching the waiver wire for undrafted free agents or lower round draft picks cut by other teams such as Jeter and Ridgeway.

Is the front office being told to keep expenses down in 2022 by Snyder? It seems the club hasn't wanted to commit any monies for 2023 after the deal for McLaurin went through and the team traded for Wentz.

Which brings me to the Wentz decision. It is being reported now that Wentz was perhaps our #3 pick at quarterback in the offseason. Evidently Jimmy G was almost a Commander absent his decision to have offseason shoulder surgery. Mariota was supposedly an option as well.

So, the team after a year with Taylor Heinicke as the full-time starter correctly assessed that he was a good backup quarterback who could win a couple of games for you in the case of injury but was not a 16 game starter.

But the decision-making on the WHO to solve the problem was once again questionable. Jimmy G was a successful starter because he had a top 5 defense and playmakers on offense that took the pressure off him. When the pressure was on him to carry the team, he failed.

Mariota has been mostly a career backup. He can run, congrats, so can all of our running backs.

Eventually 3 draft picks went to Indy for Wentz. Wentz is 29 years old and making $28M for 2022. Those were a lot of picks for a guy whose presence on the Colts roster had them hamstrung on cap space to make other moves. In my mind you either give up fewer picks or make Indy retain some of his salary to make a deal work. It is interesting that Matt Ryan cost the Colts less in trade than Wentz cost Washington.

But those are logistics. Was Wentz the right move? Was ignoring QB in the draft or trade market in 2020 and 2021 the right ones? Wentz has a strong arm and has streaks not unlike his predecessor Fitzpatrick where he can get hot. But he also is limited in his decision-making and ability to read defenses and can be a turnover machine as well. That type of quarterback profiles as a top backup or a spot starter brought in when there are injuries. Is a quarterback that needs great pass protection and everything else clicking to be mostly productive and on the positive side of his TD/INT worth the investment?

To me, he's a better bet than Fitzpatrick at 39 in 2021 to be a more productive player over 16 games. But that's not saying that much.

Again, the team has correctly identified the need for position upgrade but they seem stuck in cement in refusing to trade enough to move up and take a quarterback in the draft or make a major trade for a veteran. Maybe it's the fear of taking another Robert Griffin or Sam Darnold and waking up later to having potentially blown 3 or 4 high picks. Also, I think there is a bias on the part of HCs with experience as defensive coaches in thinking they can win with a 'get a guy with an arm, make some big plays off play action and then run the ball' mentality, discounting the need for a Mahomes or Herbert.

So, overall I think this team from the HC/President down to the front office and coaches are average. And this team was 7-9 in 2020 and 7-10 in 2021, mediocre but not awful numbers. 2022 seems to be shaping up as a 6 or 7 win campaign, I think the defense will get better as the season progresses and it's a third place schedule. So, more of the same.

Yes, Jack Del Rio could be fired. Again, I don't think he has necessarily made the most of his personnel in terms of scheme/fit and he doesn't seem to want to change anything but rather stay the course. I am not a fan of the 3 safety package on early downs and only depending upon 2 linebackers to support vs the run. I think except for long-yardage conversion plays, that's a move that will be attacked morning, noon and night in the NFL.

Who schemes to have Jamin Davis covering Devonta Smith? We already know that Mayo and Bostic can't cover period. That leaves us with ONE linebacker with some cover skills, Holcomb.

And we are fine with that. Evidently, we are fine paying Jackson III top third money at CB to continue to look lost in the zone scheme.

I thought this was according to Ron going to be a season in 2022 of a rise in the standings and the end of the 'rebuild' stage (??).

Instead at cornerback we are going with Wildgoose and Castro-Fields as our backups, both of whom were acquired on waivers after the cutdown to 53 around the NFL.

Those seem like moves a 2-14 type team makes to pick up some guys that have some upside and MAY develop in the future, not the moves of a team ready to compete for a wildcard or division.

So, in the end when the issue of what's going wrong comes up the answer to me is it's a team/system problem.

I don't see the clear strategy in place that you see in KC where Reid drafted Mahomes and then went about building a defense with key free agent and trade acquisitions.

You could say the same thing about the Chargers who took Herbert and are drafting skill players on both sides of the ball to grow with him.

Wentz is not going to take Washington to a Super Bowl win either this year or in any real projection of future years.

So, what the hell are we doing? Treading water.

And after the 4-12 and 5-11 seasons under Jay Gruden with all of the team management dysfunction and scandals, finishing 7-10 and being mediocre is an improvement.

The question is - FOR HOW LONG? :hammer:
 
Ron Rivera, coaches and the front office have done a lot of the right things when it comes to the 'forms' of organization. We are no longer signing free agents to mega-bucks deals, we are resigning our own key players (Allen, McLaurin) without rancorous negotiations and finding some performers in the late rounds (Kurl - Round 7) of the draft.
Agree on the first part, but Cam Kurl may have been more Kyle Smith than anyone involved in the organization now. His last draft was 2020 and he was stated to have full control as I recall.

So, we are no longer the laughingstock of the league other than the mop-up on Snyder's culpability for mismanagement prior to the time Rivera came in the door.

But that only means Washington has risen from the depths of despair to being a mediocre football team. It's become one of the anonymous teams in the NFL, whose highlights and lowlights now sometimes don't even make it onto ESPN or other sports recap shows.
No, I am not so sure about this. We have a guy who is not a sleezeball as a head coach, that is true. However, "mismanagement" seems to have bitten Rivera. Calling the Commanders anonymous after two straight first halves with 0 points undersells that "accomplishment." Just keep in mind, the Eagles D was letting up something like 6ypc in the first half. They weren't even looking for the run. What did our O do?

This offense is being helmed by someone who was given a 3 year extension without having proven a lot on his resume. In fact, *this* year, after putting a lot of investment into the offense, should have been a good barometer. Instead, now you are going to be reading the situation and you have already given him the extension. It made no sense then, it continues to make no sense now.

What Washington has NOT done is show that the collective brain-trust in the front office and coaching staff are above average in their methods or the results obtained.

In the area of player personnel the team has made some key mistakes that has equated to one step forward, two steps back over the past 2 years.

You wrote here: 2 years. Again, the FO changed quite a bit 2 years ago; they exchanged Kyle Smith for the current "Marties" structure. That structure decided to undertake a strange policy this offseason which featured a lot of the depth talent that Boone referenced walking without even talking to them. Walk after the Wentz contract? Sure, I get it. I may think the Wentz move was a mistake, but what's done is done. Then, you compound it by letting the market determine who stays? Guess what, you will keep your worst players that way. They basically said they wouldn't go to players to talk about futures here, the players had to come to them, and there was a lot of confusion. Ioannidis, Settle on the DL; ridiculous. McKissic almost (and their weird policy rankled the Bills there too, because McKissic I guess wanted to stay in WAS a lot, and their weird policy had effects that stretched out). DeAndre Carter.

A LOT of the good moves they made in the previous 2-3 years were wiped out in one horrible offseason.

Some of this was due to the Wentz contract; the FO was scrambling to shore up their planning due to that (Ioannidis agent basically revealed this when he said the FO reneged on their words after Wentz signed). Whatever the reasoning, though, there are very big failures here that stretch across the board, and a lot of it comes from being "coach-centric" and having a coach making decisions seemingly based on his personal relationships and little regard to merit.

That is how I see things.



Eventually 3 draft picks went to Indy for Wentz. Wentz is 29 years old and making $28M for 2022. Those were a lot of picks for a guy whose presence on the Colts roster had them hamstrung on cap space to make other moves. In my mind you either give up fewer picks or make Indy retain some of his salary to make a deal work. It is interesting that Matt Ryan cost the Colts less in trade than Wentz cost Washington.

But those are logistics.
One thing that has to always be considered; Wentz cost us in other ways too as I mentioned above. I think what has happened over the last couple of years is we have an OC has changed very little (and I read analysts echoing this, saying he is running pretty much the same system he has run the last two years) and demands personnel to mold into his system. The best OCs have to be adaptable in the modern NFL. They make their money that way because it gives the FO more flexibility on finding good players who can learn, rather than specific pieces. I mean, this is true in any company; if you have people who know how to train new employees, you can save major $$$ rather than hiring seasoned experts all of the time. There are obvious tradeoffs in both tactics, so usually you need to rely on a mix of the two strategies. Here, we can only succeed with "just the right vets" and our OC/HC continue to blame players week after week after week, and player after player after player.

At some point you'd think they'd look in the mirror. I haven't seen it yet to the degree I'd have expected.
 
Instead at cornerback we are going with Wildgoose and Castro-Fields as our backups, both of whom were acquired on waivers after the cutdown to 53 around the NFL.

I don't get these moves, especially since we have an experienced veteran in Danny Johnson, who we've downgraded to the PS.
How are Wildgoose and Fields the best replacement for Jackson that we could find ?
I was shocked to turn on my TV late, and essentially find Wildgoose starting
 
And Danny Johnson has played well for us in the past. WTF?
 

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