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an observation advanced respectfully

We shall see. So you think Griffin has hit his peak? I think he has the gifts to be a lot more then a read option qb. Maybe I'm mistaken. It wouldn't be the first time.I'm not singling out you or anyone else for that matter but last season the Skins Drafted Griffin to be the franchise qb. After 2 games everyone is prepared to draw conclusions as to what he will and won't become.
 
And something I am not sure we'll ever see...
I don't know I think most successful Qbs in the league evolve from what they were in college. I do agree however Griffin wasn't experienced as a drop back passer or a sit in the pocket kind of qb. He seems to a great student and certainly capable of developing a much larger skill set then some... I mean is it so hard to believe that 9 months 10 months after the acl/ldl surgery he hasn't been able to play at the same level as last season? RG3 was pretty dang accurate last season against a whole lot of pretty good defenses. Robert might require more time...It doesn't mean it won't happen:djsmilie:
 
mobility sets up his whole game. notice that we haven't had one deep strike yet this season? defenses are just dropping two back to cut that off cuz they know he is zero threat to run. at least moving him around the pocket will buy time, play to his strengths, and open opportunities for an occasional QB run defenses will have to take seriously. right now, we have no deep game because we have someone dropping back and growing roots.

if this pattern continues this week - Suh is going to break him into little pieces. our O-line is not built for this type of game (conventional drop-back only).
 
I'm pretty much in agreement with fansince's take on this.

The question in my mind right now is the knee. What I'm seeing is a deterioration of Griff's mobility caused by both the knee and the knee brace inhibiting his ability to be as mobile as he was last season. His passing mechanics are such that his accuracy is mobility-dependent as fansince suggests. He has become accustomed to throwing on the run-moving out of the pocket, quick plant and quick flick of the wrist throw.

This is muscle memory operating-instinctive, requiring virtually no conscious decision making once the choice to move as been made. This is completely different from the approach a typical drop-back pocket passer uses. Griff's functional auto-pilot mode is synchronized to his mobility and athleticism. IMO, an attempt to convert him into a typical drop-back pocket passer would be a difficult and time consuming process because of things he would have to unlearn and replace with a different set of brain-muscle interactions which would then have to be repeated often enough for them to be non-conscious-level muscle memory in order for them to be as effective as his normal (and healthy!) mode of operation is now.

What I need to find out-which may be difficult, especially in an ongoing season is this;

How well would the unbraced knee function in a live-fire game situation? The brace certainly appears to be a notable hindrance to his mobility for both passing and using him as a viable run threat. I attribute pretty much all his passing difficulties and unusual accuracy problems to changes he has had to make because of the knee's immobility-be it internal, the brace, or a combination of both. Is it being used as insurance or is the knee still lacking structural integrity sufficient for him to use his mobility to return to his more accustomed passing mechanics and running?

Or am I wrong and the brace really not that much of a hindrance and it's just caution on the coaching staff's part-with the added possibility of some fear on his part that is causing play-calling and his on-field decision making to place him in a position in which his strengths are apparently unavailable in a situation were they would be seriously useful?

Frankly, I'm worried. The Redskins running game-even with the skills of Almo and Helu, still largely dependent on Griff's mobility and athleticism to be as dominatingly effective as it was last season. Opposing defenses right now can shed the uncertainty we gave them last season and attack either the run game or go after Griff with relative impunity when last season they would have paid for the choice heavily with a strong running game or a quick pass from a mobile accurate QB. Putting defenses in a "damned if you're right, damned if you're wrong" situation was our weapon last season. Currently that weapon doesn't seem available. I hope I see something that shows I've made a mistake somewhere in my analysis.
 
I'm pretty much in agreement with fansince's take on this.

The question in my mind right now is the knee. What I'm seeing is a deterioration of Griff's mobility caused by both the knee and the knee brace inhibiting his ability to be as mobile as he was last season. His passing mechanics are such that his accuracy is mobility-dependent as fansince suggests. He has become accustomed to throwing on the run-moving out of the pocket, quick plant and quick flick of the wrist throw.

This is muscle memory operating-instinctive, requiring virtually no conscious decision making once the choice to move as been made. This is completely different from the approach a typical drop-back pocket passer uses. Griff's functional auto-pilot mode is synchronized to his mobility and athleticism. IMO, an attempt to convert him into a typical drop-back pocket passer would be a difficult and time consuming process because of things he would have to unlearn and replace with a different set of brain-muscle interactions which would then have to be repeated often enough for them to be non-conscious-level muscle memory in order for them to be as effective as his normal (and healthy!) mode of operation is now.

What I need to find out-which may be difficult, especially in an ongoing season is this;

How well would the unbraced knee function in a live-fire game situation? The brace certainly appears to be a notable hindrance to his mobility for both passing and using him as a viable run threat. I attribute pretty much all his passing difficulties and unusual accuracy problems to changes he has had to make because of the knee's immobility-be it internal, the brace, or a combination of both. Is it being used as insurance or is the knee still lacking structural integrity sufficient for him to use his mobility to return to his more accustomed passing mechanics and running?

Or am I wrong and the brace really not that much of a hindrance and it's just caution on the coaching staff's part-with the added possibility of some fear on his part that is causing play-calling and his on-field decision making to place him in a position in which his strengths are apparently unavailable in a situation were they would be seriously useful?

Frankly, I'm worried. The Redskins running game-even with the skills of Almo and Helu, still largely dependent on Griff's mobility and athleticism to be as dominatingly effective as it was last season. Opposing defenses right now can shed the uncertainty we gave them last season and attack either the run game or go after Griff with relative impunity when last season they would have paid for the choice heavily with a strong running game or a quick pass from a mobile accurate QB. Putting defenses in a "damned if you're right, damned if you're wrong" situation was our weapon last season. Currently that weapon doesn't seem available. I hope I see something that shows I've made a mistake somewhere in my analysis.

All valid points especially in regards to how the knee brace factors in....I hope you are wrong...I'm certain you can understand. I'm going to continue to hold onto hope this early in the season. Only Stat that matters is win loss. The Skins are one game out of first or last in the division:nana:
 
mobility sets up his whole game. notice that we haven't had one deep strike yet this season? defenses are just dropping two back to cut that off cuz they know he is zero threat to run. at least moving him around the pocket will buy time, play to his strengths, and open opportunities for an occasional QB run defenses will have to take seriously. right now, we have no deep game because we have someone dropping back and growing roots.

if this pattern continues this week - Suh is going to break him into little pieces. our O-line is not built for this type of game (conventional drop-back only).

I was just saying the same at the skins bar Sunday. With zero threat of him busting one out, they dont ever need to respect it. The cornerstone of our entire O is now relegated to the shelf unfortunately.

What needs to happen (as an armchair coach) is to make that threat a viable one again through some attempts at least. heck, if he busts out just one long one, everything changes for the good.
 
Serious though I've read and admired the views and the observations from the core of this particular forum...But I am just shocked that you guys almost to a man are already throwing in the towel on Robert. I have no idea what a couple of years of experience will look like in his evolution but the upside is terrific. I'm of the mindset that the read option and or pistol caught defenses with their pants down. It will thrive in the NFL because that is what the networks need and the college qbs are leaning that way. I just don't think the experiment is over. The Eagles are running an offense that would suit RG3's skill set. We are having this discussion today about the consequences of the quarterback receiving too much of the role in rushing beyond the line of scrimmage. That offense is still there and I expect it works just fine. The Skins for any number of reasons have chosen not to use it so far. They are wisely adjusting the qb's exposure outside of normal conditions. I expect a whole lot of teams are learning ways to find a better balance.The Skins are clearly struggling in the first half. That just can't and won't continue to happen.The Skins offense has got some traction. We'll see how the defense and special teams respond.
 
Cycleans, I never let worry erase hope. :)

I'm better at diagnostics than therapeutics so my analyses tend to look worse than I really feel. :betterwink:
 
I don't think nobody is throwing the towel in on RG3. We all know what he's capable of, but let's be honest. We caught a lot of teams off guard last year with the zone read and were beating teams with the run, not RG3 throwing the ball up and down the field. Not to mention the turnovers on D we were getting.
 
Serious though I've read and admired the views and the observations from the core of this particular forum...But I am just shocked that you guys almost to a man are already throwing in the towel on Robert. I have no idea what a couple of years of experience will look like in his evolution but the upside is terrific. I'm of the mindset that the read option and or pistol caught defenses with their pants down. It will thrive in the NFL because that is what the networks need and the college qbs are leaning that way. I just don't think the experiment is over. The Eagles are running an offense that would suit RG3's skill set. We are having this discussion today about the consequences of the quarterback receiving too much of the role in rushing beyond the line of scrimmage. That offense is still there and I expect it works just fine. The Skins for any number of reasons have chosen not to use it so far. They are wisely adjusting the qb's exposure outside of normal conditions. I expect a whole lot of teams are learning ways to find a better balance.The Skins are clearly struggling in the first half. That just can't and won't continue to happen.The Skins offense has got some traction. We'll see how the defense and special teams respond.

In an effort to clear up any misconceptions-I have in no way shape or form "given up" on Robert Griffin III. My comments are based on the situation as it seems to exist and of course contingent on several unknowns. That is why I phrased them as questions-aimed at the approaches suggested and qualified by my lack of knowledge of internal goings-on within the Redskins.

I agree that the read option is an up and coming offense being adopted by many teams precisely because of its effectiveness and the difficulty defenses ave adjusting. It's not going away for a while yet.
 
no one is throwing the towel in on RGIII. we are, given his physical situation, reconsidering the best way/scheme to serve as the vehicle for exploiting his prodigious skills.
 
You made my day. I now realize I am not the oldest fart here.

I am so fortunate to be able to bring such a bundle of unexpected joy to someone's life.




Geez. :thud:




And a "Like" from fansince?

Damn.




Hmmm...servumtuum is Latin for "thy servant"...I wonder what the Latin word for "fossil" is?

oldguy.gif











:rotflmao:
 
I agree. The knee and his mobility is the only real issue. Griffin can succeed in other types of offenses than simply the zone read.

But in order to be effective today almost ANY NFL qb outside of Manning or Brady needs to be able to move with the ball in his hands and make plays down the field.

The fact that Griffin was perhaps the BEST quarterback at making plays last season and this season seems challenged to get 3 yards outracing a defensive end to the corner, leads me to be suspicious of the health of his knee.

And if we are talking about potentially throwing a franchise qb's career away with another injury to a not yet 100% knee, then why not view Cousins as a realistic short-term or intermediate term option?

Fans today have the perspective that if you don't play a guy and give him 100% of the reps right away you are going to ruin his confidence.

Roger Staubach sat behind Craig Morton in Dallas when he returned from his Navy service after winning the Heisman. In time he emerged and Morton was traded.

In Miami, a hurt Bob Griese watched as Earl Morrall quarterbacked the Dolphins to many of the 14 regular season victories in 1972 before returning for the playoffs. He went on to be one of the best qbs of the 1970's.

Neither player was 'ruined' because they had to sit and wait until they were 100% and ready to play.
 
Serious though I've read and admired the views and the observations from the core of this particular forum...But I am just shocked that you guys almost to a man are already throwing in the towel on Robert. I have no idea what a couple of years of experience will look like in his evolution but the upside is terrific. I'm of the mindset that the read option and or pistol caught defenses with their pants down. It will thrive in the NFL because that is what the networks need and the college qbs are leaning that way. I just don't think the experiment is over. The Eagles are running an offense that would suit RG3's skill set. We are having this discussion today about the consequences of the quarterback receiving too much of the role in rushing beyond the line of scrimmage. That offense is still there and I expect it works just fine. The Skins for any number of reasons have chosen not to use it so far. They are wisely adjusting the qb's exposure outside of normal conditions. I expect a whole lot of teams are learning ways to find a better balance.The Skins are clearly struggling in the first half. That just can't and won't continue to happen.The Skins offense has got some traction. We'll see how the defense and special teams respond.

I'm not sure if the fact that your post was immediately after mine means it was meant for me, but in no way am I throwing in any towel on him at all. I think he's our QB and a great one. Now we need to just get back to playing him like he needs to be played to keep Defenses guessing on what he will do like last season.
 
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Let's face it, we won't find out until sometime after the season through the ever present 'anonymous' sources exactly what the story is with Shanahan, Griffin and the strange start to the season in re the new offense and how Kyle is calling plays from it.
 
Cycleans, not even Griff's biggest critic on this board...me...is throwing the towel in yet. I have had deep reservations since BB started suggesting he could be a serious consideration for this team when he was a QB at Baylor two years ago. Not a fan of his style of play. I would much rather have had Andrew Luck.

With that said, I know this kid is smart, and we've seen what he can do healthy when the coach's take advantage of his strength...on the move. But I am also concerned with other issues I think are over looked by too many fans. I am not going to get into all that again, but I still have my reservations...it's not all of a sudden.
 
I don't understand how RG2 and RG3 would be telling the Redskins they won't run any scheme where Griffin has to use his athleticism on the ground to be a primary asset.

Russell Wilson and Kaepernick are also younger quarterbacks with run/pass skills and their coaches have them in mobile attacks and neither player has missed a game as far as I can see because of an out of the pocket run.

If we go back to last season Griffin was hurt on scrambles not the read option. In both cases he failed to protect himself, refusing to just go out of bounds against Atlanta and turning back into the middle of the field against Baltimore to take on the teeth of the defense.

Griffin kept talking about attacking and not changing his game last year and now ironically injuries from being that stubborn have him where he is at.
 

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