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an observation advanced respectfully

McKissic for the win

fansince62

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some of you may find comments by us old dogs as too critical. well, for those of you born after 1980 or so.....hard to communicate the culture around Skinsland post-Lombardi to 1992. During that period one or two losses was subject for stern conversations. we expected the best at all times and fretted when things went South. We expected to be competitive and professional - and we expected to win the majority of games. the team has been so bad since that time that many of you may not fully absorb the mindset - you haven't lived it...at elast with this team...so you are on eternal "it'll get better or it's getting better" mode.

not a dig. just a partial whyfor when some of us seem more critical than others.
 

Neophyte

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I agree, Al.

I think fans today see the "Ah shucks" personality of Gibbs and don't really understand how things were under him the first time around. I remember an interview with Grimm once back in the mid-80s where he said fans didn't understand what it was like around Redskins Park after a loss. Gibbs made everyone feel bad about it and that the players were actually scared of losing because of how bad practices were after.

I don't feel that under Shanahan. Granted, a big part of it is out of a coaches hands now. The CBA has limited so much of what can be done in practice that much of the old methods Gibbs used to instill that fear into players is just not available to a coach now.
 

riggins44

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I hate referring to the "good old days", but this is where this franchise is right now. With CBA and other rules you can't coach teams like during 80's. Plus players are different now. They come in with marketing mgmt advisors and often make more than coaches. You don't see the respect and or fear for authority.

I think a lot of the problems have been brought on by Snyder. He alienated so many people on all levels. Which is why we see the movement to force him to change team's name.

I long for the days, like with Gibbs, when players said they expected to win each week. Jim Lachey once said when they received game plan the players were like how can we lose if we execute.

I hope we all get to see the glory years return.
 

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As a footnote I am old enough to remember some very lean years. Then we had likes of Lombardi and George Allen come in to give us hope.

Gibbs took us to promise land and we expected victories and playoffs.

I hope and pray those days return soon.
 

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Nice point Al. I would be very surprised though if behind the scenes it's all sunshine, roses, and 'just try harder next time fellas'. Did you see Shanahan getting in players faces yesterday after stupid drive-killing penalties? He looked like he was about to stroke out. I suspect there is going to be some intensity and urgency in practice this week
 

fansince62

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Nice point Al. I would be very surprised though if behind the scenes it's all sunshine, roses, and 'just try harder next time fellas'. Did you see Shanahan getting in players faces yesterday after stupid drive-killing penalties? He looked like he was about to stroke out. I suspect there is going to be some intensity and urgency in practice this week
and some player shuffling. you don't cut it? next guy's turn!!!
 

servumtuum

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Being 65 and a Redsins fan since George Allen worked his magic upon arrival, I can relate to many of the comments that have been made.

Of course, I have a take on this to offer.

One aspect of things that tshile opened up a potential segue into is the NFL as a business. Starting in 2014 the NFL's revenue from the four major televion carriers-Fox, CBS, NBC and ESPN-is going to nearly double from its current $20.4 billion to $39.6 billion. NFL football dominates tv ratings over most any other programming and on Monday nights and the Superbowl nothing anywhere can compete for viewership-and thus advertising dollars. Add to that merchandising of sports related items and you have an amazing cash cow operating here Over the past forty years the NFL has grown into the largest revenue generating sports business in the country.

Back in the 1960s and before, major league baseball still ruled the roost by a wide margin but the audience demograpic was different-it was my parents and their peers and the generation before them who had enshrined baseball as "The National Pastime" and professional football was mostly an afterthought in the early days of television sports coverage until the emergence of what I call "The Personality"-sports figure as entertainer as well as performer. The figure that stands out in my memory was Joe Namath-"Broadway Joe" he was called-whose off-the-field antics attracted almost as much attention as his play on the field. The fact that he was with the newly formed AFL competitor to the established NFL added to his "mystique" and attracted interest and viewersip to the sport. The second thing that helped propel the NFL into prominence and eventual pre-eminence, again IMO, was free-agency. NFL players in the 1950s and 1960s had contracts that most people now would view as analogous to indentured servitude-with free agency you had the development of rich players able to switch teams and a contracts end for a fatter offer elsewhere-more began emulating the "Player as Personality and Entertainer" model and the viewing public began treating them like Hollywood stars.

The result? NFL viewership started to skyrocket and with it revenue-as a businessman, an NFL francise owner growing his business had to go with this flow or become an also-ran. This is not, by the way, an indictment of anything but just my presenting what I think is a plausible explanation of the changes wrought in the NFL as a part of national culture that, among other effects, have changed the entire coach/players paradigm from the perspective of running an NFL franchise as a business in today's market versus that of thirty to fifty years ago.

Changes occur generationally and the average "Joe NFL viewer"-as opposed to long-term team-specific adherent-NFL tv viewer today is accustomed to the more, shall we say "flamboyant?" players operating under fewer of the types of restrictions of the "old days" who may not exemplify an idealized past "Gibbs, Lombardi, Halas" coach/player structure but this is the demograpic in which the NFL now operates-this is the market in which tons of money is being made by franchises, players, and the league. It would be a poor business decision indeed to vary from the business model that is as successful as the NFL now is.

Neo, I had a comment to make about your reference to the CBA. During that whole process the single most consistent negative comment I encountered was the "rich spoiled brats fighting richer spoiled brats over who gets a bigger slice of the pie" meme that showed up in every discussion going on online about the negotiations. The same people who enjoy the players are simultaneously aware of, and buy into an "operating on a different level of wealth than me" perspective and the dislike of both team owners and players was notable. I think it's plausible that at least to a certain extent the resolution of the dispute was brought about by a realization by both owners and players that they were pissing off the "Golden Egg" goose and in danger of both sides getting hurt-the quibbles between them were real but, IMO, exacerbated by sensationalist media. There were some who tried to frame it as an "ideological" thing but that was most likely just opportunitic attempts at political trolling.


I am left with one question, however. Since every team is now operating under the same level and types of constraints-what is it about the Redskins that makes our situation seem worse than average. Have we really pissed off some "powers that be" into a retaliatory stance designed to thwart our success? I don't take conspiracy theories at face value without a boatload of verifiable external evidence so I am still looking for what I view as reasonable answers-I dislike Roger Goodell and John Mara intensely but I have a hard time picturing them in a darkened room somewhere saying "We'll get that f***er Snyder, throw every roadblock we can in front of 'em, make 'em change the team name even."

Currently I am at somewat of a loss-I won't eliminate the above mentioned possibility but there's not enough evidence yet to be convincing.
 
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ntotoro

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The toughest part for me is that I'm 40, thus my most influential years were when the 'Skins could do no wrong. The last twenty years haven't been easy on me...

Nick
 

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I see it as the opposite.....in my opinion it's the younger fans who are prone to be more impatient and knee-jerk, and "win now, or else"....simply because that's the nature of the younger culture
 

McD5

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I don't put a lot of faith into the "cursed" or "victim" scenario. I believe it comes down to the people we have in charge. If you really step back and look at it from a distance, it's a great accomplishment when we make the playoffs.

Dan? Hasn't had success since he's been here. Awful decision making. Zorn, all of those overpriced, older FAs? Playing games with the cap? That's Dan.

Our HC hasn't won a playoff game in over a decade. But he's suddenly going to become a great coach now? Why? Why would we expect anything different than his last ten years?

Our HC was fired for crappy defenses and poor drafts. Should we expect good defenses and good drafts? What's changed?

Our DC has never enjoyed success. But he's going to light it up here? Why would that be?

It all comes down to decisions. We have average, to below average people making them across the entire organization.
 

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I give the younger fans all the credit in the world. Right up there with Cubs fans.
 

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Building an NFL roster is still largely the same task. You have to find talent, you have to find quality character guys who can stay on the field and you have to have a coaching staff that maximizes that talent.

But above all of that, in winning organizations the GM and front office are in charge. Individual players don't cast a shadow over an entire franchise. Unfortunately, that has happened here in Washington, especially since Snyder bought the team.

There was the LaVar Arrington saga of a linebacker who was still making read and react mistakes you expect of a rookie in his fourth or fifth year because his game never matured. But he was a sacred cow around the Park.

Ditto for Clinton Portis, who brought drama to every season in one way or another. He went to Wizards/Lakers games with the owner and was another sacred cow.

Now we have Griffin. Is Griffin smarter than Arrington? Yes. Is he supportive of teammates where Portis criticized them? Yes.

But in forcing his way back onto the field this quickly in a public manner before he was really ready, he has shown that somewhere in his thinking he is bigger than the team.

And that is something that has not been challenged by the coach, GM or the owner.

Over time that only leads to problems.
 

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Another old guy here. Over the years, I have come to expect just about anything from this team. I hated it when JKC passed away, but he was disengaged over the last five years or so of his life anyway. His son was too vanilla for me and was happy (shocked too) that he didn't inherit the team. I'm glad that the Milsteins didn't get the franchise too - they were too New York based imho and was probably going to operate the team from afar.

Fast forward to Dan Snyder. While I prefer him over the other potential owners in the aforementioned paragraph, there just had to be an astute business owner or partners that could pony up and do far better. At the time, I was shocked that there wasn't as much interest from qualified owners and/or partners. The DC region had more than enough movers and shakers to make it happen, but it didn't. Yes, I hope the current owner finally "gets it", but we are still paying for some of his sins.

I'm optimistic, but even that is a bit guarded. This may sound strange, but my optimism is limited with Mike Shanahan. However, the one who I think could shine as the next Redskins coach is Kyle Shanahan. If this is the plan over the next few years, then I hope it works. We struck gold with a young, innovative coach back in 1980. I like what the Boston Celtics did a couple of months ago - a young, dynamic coach could be what team green needs for the next fifteen or so years. Yes, I am optimistic and that excitement centers on our young offensive coordinator. The signs are there. I think he is a dynamic coach who will do even better with his father moving on or to the front office. So yes, it is about patience too.
 

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The Sam Grossman group that included Joe Gibbs as an investor would have been the best ownership for the team and the fans because they would have brought in professional managers instead of the bunch of stoolies that Snyder had in guys like Cerrato and Pepper Rodgers.

The irony is that Snyder didn't have the money to buy the Redskins if not for convincing Zuckerman to back his play.
 

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So from the sounds of things most here feel this season is doomed? Really? I'm in the over 50 crowd myself and I'm excited about the next few years if we can protect our qb.Did the media go overboard with all of the RG3 stories during the off season? Absolutely. Do you want to blame that on Robert? He's young,he's intelligent he's worked hard to get where he's at...He enjoys the spotlight.He is one of those special kind of players.
I got sucked into the hype a bit myself. The Skins have stumbled out the gate is an understatement. On every level they have been dreadful. Offense, Defense, Special teams against the run against the pass, turnovers etc. Not that much different then what we saw when the team was 3-6 and soon to be 3-7 last season. I don't want to get long winded here this team goes as Robert goes. How do we really know that Robert can't torch the defense with his legs? I haven't seen any evidence in one way or another.The "2 minute offense" is being deployed because the team is down by 3-4 Tds at the half.
I didn't trust the defense last season and I don't trust them this season. That being said Robert is throwing off the wrong foot at times and doesn't execute the position as sharp as last season. I think before the bye week we will see him and the offense find their rhythm. Teams have had all off season to study the read option RG3, Kapernick and Russell Wilson. Teams are also somewhat cautious about using it early in the season so far. With or without a surgically repaired knee the first 2 games would have presented a challenge.
I'm just glad we didn't see Robert running the read option too early and ripping his knee up already. He's more mobile than most qbs in the league the way he's now. His accuracy is getting better. The Skins will get on track and contend for the division title. Who scares you in the NFC East? They can all be had and beat most any team in the league the following week. All of the teams are inconsistent in our division.
 

fansince62

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So from the sounds of things most here feel this season is doomed? Really? I'm in the over 50 crowd myself and I'm excited about the next few years if we can protect our qb.Did the media go overboard with all of the RG3 stories during the off season? Absolutely. Do you want to blame that on Robert? He's young,he's intelligent he's worked hard to get where he's at...He enjoys the spotlight.He is one of those special kind of players.
I got sucked into the hype a bit myself. The Skins have stumbled out the gate is an understatement. On every level they have been dreadful. Offense, Defense, Special teams against the run against the pass, turnovers etc. Not that much different then what we saw when the team was 3-6 and soon to be 3-7 last season. I don't want to get long winded here this team goes as Robert goes. How do we really know that Robert can't torch the defense with his legs? I haven't seen any evidence in one way or another.The "2 minute offense" is being deployed because the team is down by 3-4 Tds at the half.
I didn't trust the defense last season and I don't trust them this season. That being said Robert is throwing off the wrong foot at times and doesn't execute the position as sharp as last season. I think before the bye week we will see him and the offense find their rhythm. Teams have had all off season to study the read option RG3, Kapernick and Russell Wilson. Teams are also somewhat cautious about using it early in the season so far. With or without a surgically repaired knee the first 2 games would have presented a challenge.
I'm just glad we didn't see Robert running the read option too early and ripping his knee up already. He's more mobile than most qbs in the league the way he's now. His accuracy is getting better. The Skins will get on track and contend for the division title. Who scares you in the NFC East? They can all be had and beat most any team in the league the following week. All of the teams are inconsistent in our division.
we have also learned he is not going to be Brady/Manning great if he intends to become a pocket passer like those two. he can be great - but part of the formula is his mobility. the Shanahan's have to go back to the drawing board and figure a lower risk scheme that still takes advantage of RG's athleticism. My guess is we see a return to the Elway type scheme of the late 90s.
 

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The toughest part for me is that I'm 40, thus my most influential years were when the 'Skins could do no wrong. The last twenty years haven't been easy on me...

Nick
Im 42 and feel the exact same. Caught bewteen the great and the pathetic, I feel freaking bi-polar! All I want is to see good quality, consistent play. There will be losses, but I expect better than I have been fed most seasons as an adult.
 

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I think you are being a bit preposterous in suggesting that Griffin in the pocket is going to be a John Elway or Aaron Rodgers.

One was a first ballot HOFer and the other has been the best qb in the league for the past couple of years.

Elway not only won 2 Super Bowls but took other teams to the Super Bowl earlier in his career strictly on the strength of his playmaking ability as the final score of those Super Bowls attest.

Griffin so far has not shown us that he can plant and throw the ball accurately in a quick strike attack with pressure coming at him in the pocket. He has not done a very good job so far in feeling the rush and getting outside to extend plays, even if running down the field is not on the menu.

Perhaps Griffin can morph his game and become a pro bowl drop back passer, but what organization is going to take 2-3 years to make that happen? You have to take a player that has won a different way his whole football career going back to college and high school and have him learn a new way of honing his craft.

That is not something that is done in 5 or 6 games or even one season.
 

Elephant

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I think you are being a bit preposterous in suggesting that Griffin in the pocket is going to be a John Elway or Aaron Rodgers.

One was a first ballot HOFer and the other has been the best qb in the league for the past couple of years.

Elway not only won 2 Super Bowls but took other teams to the Super Bowl earlier in his career strictly on the strength of his playmaking ability as the final score of those Super Bowls attest.

Griffin so far has not shown us that he can plant and throw the ball accurately in a quick strike attack with pressure coming at him in the pocket. He has not done a very good job so far in feeling the rush and getting outside to extend plays, even if running down the field is not on the menu.

Perhaps Griffin can morph his game and become a pro bowl drop back passer, but what organization is going to take 2-3 years to make that happen? You have to take a player that has won a different way his whole football career going back to college and high school and have him learn a new way of honing his craft.

That is not something that is done in 5 or 6 games or even one season.

And something I am not sure we'll ever see...
 

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