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Whitt's problem is that he was playing checkers when the other team was playing chess.
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2025 Washington Commanders- All Things Defense
- Thread starter Chris
- Start date
When you have talent and know how to use it, it looks like this.
Loved your last posts, skinsinparadise . You had the nail on the head, as usual SIPster. Keim has been alluding to Whitt's limitations from the beginning. You really have to take note when Keim is criticizing. It started subtly and then grew more blunt. There was a major problem on D. The offense was cooking last season, the D kept games unnecessarily close. The injury excuse doesn't hold water for me. This is systemic.
The thing is last season this team possessed the ball so much, it kept the defense off the field and that helped. But whenever the defense needed a big stop, they almost never came through. Jayden's heroics last year was often borne from the defense's collapses last year and mind you those were collapses at times versus scrubs like Rattler. they had the weakest schedule in the NFL last year and so many backup QBs to make it easy yet the defense still struggled.
Race forward a year when they are playing guys like Jordan Love, and Mahomes instead of Rattler and Cooper Kupp and Trey Lance and Will Levis -- it looks like a nightmare on steriods.
I think Von has been OK. I don't mind him as far as depth goes. I agree with Suter's point that if they had Armstrong who was having a really good year and Wise still and Martin who is emerging and then Von -- the pass rush would be good.
I think the pass rush as is WR is an easy fix this off season. It's part of my problem ironically about this off season. Peters IMO left both spots (more so WR) open for a collapse. And they both did. i thought WR could be a disaster. and it was. I thought D line would be fine. I was wrong about that. But if the injuries didn't go nuts, it probably would be fine. My issue with WR is you are relying on two 30 year old plus WRs, and one who can never stay heatlhy and Peters walked that road without a net behind them.
If FA stays the way it is, you can sign a top edge and two decent WRs to avoid that cliff next season. And the draft is teaming with WRs and DEs. You can trade down or take one early.
For example lets take WR. If you sign Pierce and Jennings -- none of whom is killer but good enough -- you would exceed IMO the talent from 2024 which was OK enough. now imagine piling on to that a Carnell Tate, or Tyson or Lemon? All of a sudden in theory you got one of the best corps in the NFL.
For edge, you sign Hendrickson, they got the money to do it. Bring back Armstrong, Martin. And the imagine you draft Bain, or Faulk or Bailey? Edge now is a strength.
It's going to be a very intriguing off season. And the same reason why I think they did a poor job in places off season is the same reason why it can be easily fixed. Peters didn't have the balls to sign a Josh Sweat or Milton Williams last off season because hey they are ermerging youngish players but you got to a pay a premium for that and what if they fail? If he had the balls this defense would be better and better suited for the future. WR was complete negligence IMO -- where he just assumed I gather Jayden can overcome anything and heck any scrub off the street he signs will be another Zaccheus.
That is a Great question, so I did a little digging into the Defensive ranks (in total yards) of Dan Quinns defense when he is in charge of that as DC vs when he is more hands off as a Head Coach. It fairly revealing IMO.. There was one year when Quinn was in both positions (2019)
As Defensive Coordinator:
Team Rank
SEA 1
SEA 1
DAL 19
DAL 12
DAL 5
Average Rank: 7.6
As Head Coach:
Team Rank
ATL 16
ATL 25
ATL 9
ATL 28
ATL 29
WAS 13
WAS* 30 (current season underway)
Average Rank 21.4
* Unsure of where to put 2019 Ranking when Quinn was BOTH HC and DC , but his Def ranking was 20
So it does appear that Quinn has a much better Defense when he is actively coaching it, vs allowing a DC to run it for him. Obviously all of that^ means little by itself, each roster is different, as is opponents ranking , SOS, etc. but there is a tidbit to be gleaned. Quinn has better defenses when he is directly in charge of them.
I think for Quinn and i felt this way from the jump, while I like him as a HC from everything I've seen and heard, I think he's over the top with the i am head coach not a defensive coordinator rap. It struck me at the time because he was very emphatic about it -- that he doesn't want to be a part time coordinator because he feels it makes him a part time head coach.
But IMO, if your superpower is to coordinate a unit don't be so over the top making the point that you want nothing to do with helping coordinating it. His point seems to be he's there to faciliate that for his coordinators, make it easier for them to do their job, deal with issues in the locker room, ownership, things to help Whitt and Kliff just focus on their job with no distractions.
I get Quinn's point. But if he wants to be like that, then don't hire newbee coordinators and just assume because they worked under him they'd excel. I got people who worked for me over the years, I run my own business, who no longer work for me but I still interact with and know their reputations -- some are good, some suck. Working under someone is a big deal if they already have the tools to be successful. Just because you are from name that school of thought doesn't make you special -- that's been the joke over the years about so many Belichick disciples failing elsewhere. Or heck evern here Casserly worked with Beathard. But Casserly still sucked.
I am hoping that what happened this season shocked Quinn enough where he looks for a legit D coordinator and takes more of a hands on approach to that unit until its fixed.
But IMO, if your superpower is to coordinate a unit don't be so over the top making the point that you want nothing to do with helping coordinating it. His point seems to be he's there to faciliate that for his coordinators, make it easier for them to do their job, deal with issues in the locker room, ownership, things to help Whitt and Kliff just focus on their job with no distractions.
I get Quinn's point. But if he wants to be like that, then don't hire newbee coordinators and just assume because they worked under him they'd excel. I got people who worked for me over the years, I run my own business, who no longer work for me but I still interact with and know their reputations -- some are good, some suck. Working under someone is a big deal if they already have the tools to be successful. Just because you are from name that school of thought doesn't make you special -- that's been the joke over the years about so many Belichick disciples failing elsewhere. Or heck evern here Casserly worked with Beathard. But Casserly still sucked.
I am hoping that what happened this season shocked Quinn enough where he looks for a legit D coordinator and takes more of a hands on approach to that unit until its fixed.
Yeah. I fully get what you’re saying skinsinparadise and a lot of it makes sense. I’m just puzzled trying to imagine what Quinn’s weeks look like in his CEO HC role if he’s not directly correcting Whitt’s poor practices, not correcting things that should be obvious on tape without spending late nights digging into the X’s and O’s. How can he be that hands off before taking over this week?
When not on the practice field (where Quinn is apparently not insisting Whitt spend more time on correct run fits and adapting to audibles), the 53 + PS spend many hours each week split up into positional meeting rooms, and O/D meetings. Where is Quinn during these massive stretches of time when tape is being broken down with players, changes are being made, technique and errors are being highlighted? That’s my question.
I get that not running the D, he’s not the guy up till 2:00am grinding tape looking for ways to attack weaknesses and tendencies. But what IS he doing in regards to X’s and O’s all through the week?
1. He is one of the few NFL HC’s who has an empowered executive assistant to handle a ton of the day to day organizational stuff. There was a whole fluff piece about it, I forget her name but she was framed as a secret weapon that allowed Quinn to efficiently spend his time micromanaging the whole operation from a football standpoint every week, because she had the non-football stuff on lock that a lot of HC’s end up having to deal with. Okay, so he’s not wasting a ton of time on logistics, scheduling, correspondence, hiring or managing admin types, etc. Which anyone in a management role knows EATS your time when you manage a lot of people, but he thought ahead on that.
2. He’s not Rivera, in over his head and dealing with FO/marketing/ownership stuff every week. Harris has built out a professional business side of the operation and AP runs a fleshed out FO. They collaborate, but that’s not Quinn’s focus during the season. So he’s not losing time with that stuff like “CEO Ron” was.
So what the fuck is Quinn doing all day if he’s not correcting poor practices from Whitt, not helping gameplan even the basic failures on D that he’d be able to recognize as a longtime successful DC. This all effects his ability to be a successful HC, but he’s just letting Whitt run with the ball and fumble this huge opportunity week after week? He never points out how OC’s are making his DC a fool week after week, never mentors him on improving what he emphasizes in practice in regards to run fits, adjustments, audible reaction, etc?
Seems impossible to me. I would love an itinerary detailing Quinn’s average week because he HAS to be in some of these defensive meetings with players and assistants. Which means Whitt is either a hugely stubborn sufferer of the Dunning-Kruger effect and Quinn felt he had to let it hit rock bottom, or Quinn is really hands off in a way that seems detrimental to his own survival in this position, spending his time on things I can’t even think of right now instead of helping mentor his coordinators into successful collaborators. That doesn’t really feel right either. So what exactly is going on in that building?
When not on the practice field (where Quinn is apparently not insisting Whitt spend more time on correct run fits and adapting to audibles), the 53 + PS spend many hours each week split up into positional meeting rooms, and O/D meetings. Where is Quinn during these massive stretches of time when tape is being broken down with players, changes are being made, technique and errors are being highlighted? That’s my question.
I get that not running the D, he’s not the guy up till 2:00am grinding tape looking for ways to attack weaknesses and tendencies. But what IS he doing in regards to X’s and O’s all through the week?
1. He is one of the few NFL HC’s who has an empowered executive assistant to handle a ton of the day to day organizational stuff. There was a whole fluff piece about it, I forget her name but she was framed as a secret weapon that allowed Quinn to efficiently spend his time micromanaging the whole operation from a football standpoint every week, because she had the non-football stuff on lock that a lot of HC’s end up having to deal with. Okay, so he’s not wasting a ton of time on logistics, scheduling, correspondence, hiring or managing admin types, etc. Which anyone in a management role knows EATS your time when you manage a lot of people, but he thought ahead on that.
2. He’s not Rivera, in over his head and dealing with FO/marketing/ownership stuff every week. Harris has built out a professional business side of the operation and AP runs a fleshed out FO. They collaborate, but that’s not Quinn’s focus during the season. So he’s not losing time with that stuff like “CEO Ron” was.
So what the fuck is Quinn doing all day if he’s not correcting poor practices from Whitt, not helping gameplan even the basic failures on D that he’d be able to recognize as a longtime successful DC. This all effects his ability to be a successful HC, but he’s just letting Whitt run with the ball and fumble this huge opportunity week after week? He never points out how OC’s are making his DC a fool week after week, never mentors him on improving what he emphasizes in practice in regards to run fits, adjustments, audible reaction, etc?
Seems impossible to me. I would love an itinerary detailing Quinn’s average week because he HAS to be in some of these defensive meetings with players and assistants. Which means Whitt is either a hugely stubborn sufferer of the Dunning-Kruger effect and Quinn felt he had to let it hit rock bottom, or Quinn is really hands off in a way that seems detrimental to his own survival in this position, spending his time on things I can’t even think of right now instead of helping mentor his coordinators into successful collaborators. That doesn’t really feel right either. So what exactly is going on in that building?
CuredFromBatteredFanSyndrome
The 1st Round Pick
To add to this, because of their friendship - it was likely harder for Quinn to interject. He probably should have been sticking his nose in there more.
AngryChuckT
The UDFA
I was torn. You can’t do that’ but at the same time he Kinlaw actually seemed to give a crap which I wasn’t feeling from the majority of the D.
BayouBrave86
The 1st Round Pick
If we continue to get blown out without showing a pulse, you’ve got to consider it. Again the NFL has the most parity it ever has and we are the only ones continually getting blown out right now. Injuries or not, you have to coach up what you have. There are scab teams in the past that played pros better than our team has in the past month.
Commander Wraith
The 1st Round Pick
If I had to guess, some combo of a weaker opponent (so if we don’t get boat raced at least it looks like improvement), locker room concerns, and just the general perception* - a change had to be made pronto given the historic ineptitude.
*actually, maybe the perception is more targeted - such as AP feeling like he had to have something to show Harris.
Commander Wraith
The 1st Round Pick
I’ve always felt that this is one of the major keys of defensive play - show one thing when in reality you’re doing another. That could be showing blitz and backing off, showing blitz on one side but then coming from the other, showing press then backing off, showing man then dropping into zone, etc, etc.
You potentially cause protection issues, Qbs to audible to a play you’re actually better situated for, and/or you mess with their pre-snap reads.
One super obvious example of this was in the Super Bowl. Eagles DTs rushed so they left the middle open, Mahomes tried to run up the middle, they spun/moved back to the middle to stuff him. Over and over that happened (helped by good coverage and quality DEs rushing wide of course).
method man
The Starter
One of the areas AP did a great job this offseason was the OL. This was the most talented and deep group we have had during my fandom. I hope he can find a way to retain Wylie and Fant as cheap depth or replace them with similar caliber players.
I think he attempted this approach with CB and the DL, at least with the quality depth approach. He straight up failed not only with WR but S.
BayouBrave86
The 1st Round Pick
I’m pretty good with the offense as it’s constructed currently. Just need a solid replacement at TE, another RB, and a bigger WR to be a RZ threat. We have depth at RB, WR, and Oline. WRs are just all injured :lol:
I think where we depart is this point but let me know if i am misreading you? Your point is A. My point is B
A. Quinn is watching practice and sees what Whitt is doing, so if there is any poor coaching going on, Quinn should spot it and correct it.
And I do think there is something to this. I don't dimiss this as an issue. how for example this coaching staff trains for example the players as to run fits, etc, can likely be improved and its driven by practice. But i don't think this is the crux of the problem. But a problem. And it sounds like they'vve in recent weeks have worked to try to address some of this by additional walk throughs, etc. but too little too late. But I don't think this is the #1 issue with the defense.
B. I think the bigger plot line isn't practice. the bigger plot line is the part that Arians talks about which is the chess game and the ton of preperation involved in studying the opponent's offense and QB. If I did X, they will do Y, etc. The coordinator generally does that prep alone with their assistants. Not the head coach. It's an exhaustive process according to Arians and takes a ton of time. So Quinn has to trust Whitt fully on this. Whitt I'd bet explains the plan and why, etc to Quinn leading into the week. But unless Quinn thinks dude you don't know what you are doing, i am going to quietly prepare this week too as if I am calling the defense and am going to dig in and prepare for the offense -- he's going to just trust Whitt until he doesn't.
As for practice. You can work your ass off executing a plan that sucks. But Quinn has to trust the coordinator to create the plan. They come up with the strategy. The practice which you are referencing is more about execution. Are the properly executing Whitt's plan. but what if the plan is the problem not the execution. And the only way for Quinn to know is to dig in and play defensive coordinator for a week and do his own game planning.
Whitt seems to have an excuse every week so i am gathering that's what he explains to Quinn. He had the right plan, but... The idea that Quinn watches practice doesn't have any bearing on game planning. The game planning is already done by Whitt. If you notice their excuse of late centers on how they are asking the defense does too much so lets simplify, etc. So that has the premise of we got the right strategy we just need to give the more simple ways to execute it. The excuses are very execution centered as opposed to strategy. But the kicker for me was listening to Keim's podcast where he hit hard the problems with the strategy.
You trust Whitt until you don't. Now that he officially threw in the towell its over for Whitt. But he waited to allow his pal to work his way out of this. And my criticism of Quinn isn't that he's likely part of the bad game planning. I doubt that. He's a very accomplished D coordinator on his own. My criticism is that he waited for the season to unravel before dumping his pal. Is it too late to fix it? Probably. And that's because the lineup now is beyond bad. I don't think Spags and Fangio or name that elite coordinator can turn this unit until anything good.
But at the same time I get giving a new coordinator 2 years. I think this move is a big deal because it basically guarantees Whitt isn't running the defense next year.
BayouBrave86
The 1st Round Pick
Apparently if we lose by 21 plus on Sunday it will be the first time a team has lost by 21 plus in five straight games since 1965. Even in our worst and darkest years it was never this bad. Thats enough to fire Quinn imo. Just not even showing up at this point.
Exactly. And I'd add to convince Whitt to do this at the jump, I'd guess he told him dude this is going to be your baby, your moment to shine, I am not micro manage you at all, you are the coordinator, not me.
Part of my concern about this was I was afraid that even this off season that he'd talk himself into giving Whitt another year. So him pulling the plug a half a year into this, feels big. I can't see how Whitt is the coordinator after this.
for him to have the best season for this team in over 30 years and then the season after having a zillion injuries and a killer hard schedule and saying sorry amigo 2024 was wonderful but we don't give a crap about the bad luck of 2025 you are out of here buddy -- at a minimum it would be the talk of the NFL, I think very few would dream of canning Quinn so quickly after the most special season we've had since 1991. At a minimum it would make some question whether Harris is a good owner to work for -- because it would come off very early Dan Synderish or George Steinbrennerish which hey we got no patience.
Look I think he (but more so Peters) made some mistakes this off season. But if they had just run of the mill injuries, I'd think this would be an 8-9 season at worst.
They are about to play against Miami with Mariota throwing to Robbie Chosen. Chris Moore and Jaiyln Lane. They lol just called up an UDFA Wr from UCF in Jacoby Jones to play. At edge its Preston Smith and Von Miller and J. Martin. At corner J. Jones, Saintrstill and Noah I.
As Sheehan was saying this is like a third division college team playing talent wise against mostly murderers row teams from the SEC.
I am not using injuries as an excuse. This is the same dude (me) who felt a bit ominious about the season when it started. I think they made some grave mistakes. But if they had even average luck with injuries they'd likely be close to 500, not the dumpster fire they are right now.
The current roster as for who is healthy, I think is the worst roster this team has had in memory. The talent right now I think is the worst in the NFL. Not overall, but post injuries, this current lineup.
CuredFromBatteredFanSyndrome
The 1st Round Pick
I understand the optics and the reality of moving on from Quinn. It’s simply not happening.
That said, I do feel like I’ve seen enough this season to not feel very confident he’s going to be the guy that leads us to a Super Bowl. As impressing as last season was, this one has been just the opposite - in a variety of ways. Next season is ultimately a make or break for me on DQ. I like him and even want to love him, he’s an easy guy to root for and you can see why players love him. But this team has come out flat as a pancake on multiple occasions, where errors are routine, and it’s alarming to me. To get whooped by 20 or more, 4 weeks in a row is bottom of the barrel. Tough for me to have much faith in the guy in charge of that.
That said, I do feel like I’ve seen enough this season to not feel very confident he’s going to be the guy that leads us to a Super Bowl. As impressing as last season was, this one has been just the opposite - in a variety of ways. Next season is ultimately a make or break for me on DQ. I like him and even want to love him, he’s an easy guy to root for and you can see why players love him. But this team has come out flat as a pancake on multiple occasions, where errors are routine, and it’s alarming to me. To get whooped by 20 or more, 4 weeks in a row is bottom of the barrel. Tough for me to have much faith in the guy in charge of that.
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