2025 Washington Commanders- All Things Defense

[Dah-Dee]

Possibly good news via ESPN blurb otherwise about McLaurin/Brown being out:

"Two other players, corner Mike Sainristil and Deebo Samuel, did not practice the past two days but did make the trip. Both were working at mostly full speed while performing drills on a field separate from the rest of their teammates."

Commanders receiver Terry McLaurin ruled out vs. Chargers

Commanders receiver Terry McLaurin was ruled out of Sunday's game at the Chargers because of a lingering right quad injury.

www.espn.com

So my dream of a cover 3 base defense lives, with Lattimore on the bench, 2 of our young LBs on the wings with Wagner/Luvu, and Amos/Sainristil covering with Harris at S. Minimizes the damage bad corners and safeties have been doing, takes some of the load off our older LBs.

Second/third and long, maybe replace one of the young LBs with Flagitmore, cross your fingers.

 

[burgold]

Here's an oddball thought.

What if Mike Sainristil is a better edge corner than a nickel? Last year, when pressed into duty, Mike actually was growing into a star as a starter. Everyone presumed that slot corner would be his natural position because of his size, but it feels like he played much better on the outside. I guess his problems could be due to these lingering injuries or maybe he's a victim of the communication gaffes that are making him look worse than he is, but I wonder if he belongs on the outside?

Similarly, everyone thought Coleman would make a better guard than tackle. In Brandon's case, it could be the learning curve (and the fact that this guy cannot stay healthy during the offseason), but he was a pretty good tackle last year and had to get benched at guard.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

A. The trade made sense at the time. Maybe an overpay though if there is a lesson. He outbid other teams including Baltimore. The trade had logic at the time.

I agree. The trade made sense to me too. They had to try and do SOMETHING because they just couldn't continue with Forbes and St. Juste. And there weren't a lot of better options.

B. They had an exit ramp for Lattimore and they didn't take it this off season. That to me is the lesson along with...

I'm not sure I fully agree. There was an exit ramp, but I also think you have to be careful about rushing to judgement. Lattimore was not healthy last season, and he played, and didn't play well. However the thought of, "give him an off-season and let's see" I don't have a problem with.

That said, where I think they made a mistake, and I said this before, I think they needed more of an insurance policy for Lattimore than Jonathan Jones. I think they needed to spend a little extra money and get a really capable player in addition to drafting a guy (who turned out to be Amos), and signing a 10 year veteran in Jones. I don't know who that would be, but they needed another body who could play and start.

C. Will see how stubborn they are as to playing Lattimore if he continues to struggle. If they do and he struggles then...

I think the lesson learned is for Peters to not double down on his mistakes. Don't push it to prove to be right. Put winning first. I think that's part of why Roseman is go good, he will cut his losses.

And the reason they needed another player in the rotation is Jonathan Jones is hurt and now they basically have no options but to play Lattimore, because they've run out of players.

I think we've entered at least a few week period where they are going to be limited in what they can do, because Jones is hurt, Amos was dealing with something, and Sainristil is currently not practicing. Even if they benched him right now, he might have to play because the player he's being benched for is hurt.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

I think we’re pretty much on the same page except I’m willing to get wild and say “if Lattimore is this bad and it’s this embarrassing watching a washed up superstar with a big ego get whipped every week, it literally does not matter who you replace him with—it can only get a little bit worse—and we wouldn’t have to watch the cosmos attempt to humble Lattimore into retirement every single week”. lol

Literally I’d bench him now. IR him if he’s got even an achey back, just to not embarrass him since a cut doesn’t save us any money…but that roster spot is wasted, so get any UDFA level talent who understands a fraction of the defense (we’re having communication issues regardless, fuck it) and has some interesting measurables on the field. My example was Vigers on our own PS, they elevated Hamilton from the PS apparently, but I’d be fine scouring PS’s around the league and street FA for anybody with some athleticism and heart and a little brains. It cannot get much worse than Lattimore right now and his reputation alone is causing ghost penalties because refs expect him to interfere, for good reason. And he’s a hot head who gets penalized for that sometimes, too. He’s a liability beyond his failures in coverage and watching him is painful.

I really have no problem with that, but as you said, now we're bringing up practice squad players and asking them to cover NFL wide receivers. Which, the results might be the same, might be worse, whatever. But I also don't know if it's really fair to those players if they aren't really ready yet.

My guess is they aren't going to do that yet. Jones seems to be on IR with a hamstring. My guess is if he's able to come back from the hamstring, and I have no idea how bad the hammy is, you might see him on the outside with Amos.

Listening to Keim and Bram, there seems like there is no desire to put Sainristil back on the outside, and neither think that's a great idea. The problem with that is the other good CB on the team is Noah I. And he can't play outside. Now, it's possible Noah I. plays this week because Mikey S. is not practicing.

Bottom line, the secondary is a complete mess. Both because of injury and because players aren't playing well.

I hear you on "bench Lattimore for anybody." And I wouldn't have a problem with it. But it would have to be somebody on the PS. They won't sign a guy off the street, expect them to learn the defense and start right away. They have enough communication problems in the defense, that would just add to them.

I am big on the "do something, anything" when something isn't working. However there is a bit of an art of knowing when to pull the rip chord, and how long to try and fix it.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

Here's an oddball thought.

What if Mike Sainristil is a better edge corner than a nickel? Last year, when pressed into duty, Mike actually was growing into a star as a starter. Everyone presumed that slot corner would be his natural position because of his size, but it feels like he played much better on the outside. I guess his problems could be due to these lingering injuries or maybe he's a victim of the communication gaffes that are making him look worse than he is, but I wonder if he belongs on the outside?

Similarly, everyone thought Coleman would make a better guard than tackle. In Brandon's case, it could be the learning curve (and the fact that this guy cannot stay healthy during the offseason), but he was a pretty good tackle last year and had to get benched at guard.

I personally have no idea what he's better at. I can say that Bram and Keim talked about this on Keim's appearance on Bram's show yesterday, and both sortof dismissed the idea out of hand. Keim said there were things on the outside which Sainristil just couldn't do, it wasn't a natural position for him, and even if you looked back at last year, he did some good things and some not good things. They both were pretty adamant he needed to stay inside.

Now, are they the be-all, end-all? No. But I also gather they both have some insight as to the thinking of the coaching staff.

However, last year, necessity was the mother of invention, they HAD to put Sainristil outside because they had to cut Forbes. So, does that happen again? Who knows.

 

[SmiffySkins]

I just think that there’s a whole lot of scapegoating of Lattimore. The defence were bad last week including Lattimore but the secondary was made to look worse as Penix had a great game and our pass rush gave him the time to pick his passes with no pressure. In the previous game against the Raiders our secondary got torched in garbage time with Lattimore already off the field. Prior to this the defence did well in that game. I didn’t see either of the first 2 games but we restricted the Giants to 6 pts and 200 yds. The same Giants offence traveled to Dallas the following week and put up over 400 yds. By all accounts the GB game was sloppy on both sides of the ball. We need more consistency throughout the team. The injuries haven’t helped. I know they have happened primarily on the offensive side but the time of possession is suffering as a result and this is adding the stress to a defence that looks like it is still trying to gel. I’m giving Lattimore a little more time here. He’s not been anywhere near as bad as Forbes or St Juste. I think the talent is still there. Where I do have a question mark is if he’s being deployed where he can play to his strengths.

 

[Conn]

I just think that there’s a whole lot of scapegoating of Lattimore. The defence were bad last week including Lattimore but the secondary was made to look worse as Penix had a great game and our pass rush gave him the time to pick his passes with no pressure. In the previous game against the Raiders our secondary got torched in garbage time with Lattimore already off the field. Prior to this the defence did well in that game. I didn’t see either of the first 2 games but we restricted the Giants to 6 pts and 200 yds. The same Giants offence traveled to Dallas the following week and put up over 400 yds. By all accounts the GB game was sloppy on both sides of the ball. We need more consistency throughout the team. The injuries haven’t helped. I know they have happened primarily on the offensive side but the time of possession is suffering as a result and this is adding the stress to a defence that looks like it is still trying to gel. I’m giving Lattimore a little more time here. He’s not been anywhere near as bad as Forbes or St Juste. I think the talent is still there. Where I do have a question mark is if he’s being deployed where he can play to his strengths.

I think what the coaches are asking him to do may be exacerbating how poorly he’s playing, but I do not agree with your characterization that he’s being scapegoated. Watching each snap, he’s being paddled by anyone across from him. Not just studs. Not just one archetype. I posted this yesterday but tall guys posterize him, fast guys leave him in the dust, quick guys turn him around and leave him trailing after they break their stem. He’s not targeted every time but he’s struggling in a really embarrassing way. And on plays where he actually is in tight coverage, because he’s earned the rep of being handsy when he’s getting beat (like Breeland back in the day), the refs don’t give him the benefit of the doubt anymore and he gets earned flags, ticky-tacky flags, and ghost BS flags. Not as much as when he was injured last year, but it’s a fear every snap and it makes opposing QB’s want to target him even more.

Again, not the end all be all but he’s PFF’s 8th worst-graded DB in the entire league. 103/111 qualifying guys. Even if they’re overly harsh or he’s being graded poorly on plays where they don’t actually know the assignments, there’s no margin for error in the universe that would make him look good or even average. He’s struggling.

Most of the rest of the secondary is as well, but watching him, Lattimore is getting beat like the giant chicken in family guy. Every week

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

I just think that there’s a whole lot of scapegoating of Lattimore. The defence were bad last week including Lattimore but the secondary was made to look worse as Penix had a great game and our pass rush gave him the time to pick his passes with no pressure. In the previous game against the Raiders our secondary got torched in garbage time with Lattimore already off the field. Prior to this the defence did well in that game. I didn’t see either of the first 2 games but we restricted the Giants to 6 pts and 200 yds. The same Giants offence traveled to Dallas the following week and put up over 400 yds. By all accounts the GB game was sloppy on both sides of the ball. We need more consistency throughout the team. The injuries haven’t helped. I know they have happened primarily on the offensive side but the time of possession is suffering as a result and this is adding the stress to a defence that looks like it is still trying to gel. I’m giving Lattimore a little more time here. He’s not been anywhere near as bad as Forbes or St Juste. I think the talent is still there. Where I do have a question mark is if he’s being deployed where he can play to his strengths.

I don't know about that. I think Lattimore is legitimately struggling. He's not the only problem, but he's definitely the most expensive problem. Both in salary and what we had to trade to get him. He's also not a very likeably moody son of a gun, so it's no wonder why he's taking heat.

The question is, how long do you let him try and work through his struggles? I think at the moment, they have no choice.

But eventually, I think the bell will toll for him, and he will run out of time and somebody else will be playing.

I also think Lattimore should be a scheme fit. Quinn's defenses have generally relied on aggressive man corners, and that's what Lattimore is. And I do have faith in Quinn and Whitt to know how to deploy CBs. It's both of their background, and they both have had tremendous success with it. So, I don't think it's a "he's not being deployed correctly" problem.

I think it's a Lattimore hasn't played in 2 years consistently and isn't the same player he was because of it problem. Will he get it back? No idea. But he's struggling now in a BAD way. Hell, if PFF can see it, it's pretty obvious. (Conn, that dig was just for you and old time's sake. I'll go back to treating PFF with respect now. )

 

[burgold]

The one bright side to this mistake (if it turns out to be a huge mistake) is that while Peters did trade away high picks for Lattimore he didn't immediately turnaround and re-sign him to a long contract. I think that's what made moves like McNabb hurt so much.

 

[SmiffySkins]

Cheers Conn & Voice_of_Reason for responding. I genuinely learn a lot from your posts.
Maybe I listen to the guys on Command Center too often but even those guys in the employ of the team were down on Forbes and St Juste last year. I don’t think they think the same way about Lattimore. They obviously recognise that he’s not playing so well right now but neither are the other corners. I have heard Paulsen say on more than one occasion that Lattimore is best as an aggressive man corner but he’s been used in a lot of zone recently. I think in the last game that when you give Penix the time that he had to make his passes to a guy like Drake London then any corner would struggle.
At least we’re not tied into a longer contract should he fail to improve. Let’s see what the next few games bring. If AP agrees that he’s not providing value then he has been shown to move on without hesitation.

 

[skinsinparadise]

Two different segments with Sheehan.

A. He had some ex-player film Junkie do a film review on the last game. One of his points is miscommunications on bunch sets, etc is about not practicing it enough during the week. He checked that with a coach who told him, yeah if they are struggiling with that, it's stuff you prepare and practice for during the week. And clearly they are unprepared for it. So if it were them they'd continue to do bunch sets, put people in motion untih this team can stop it.

B. I think Sheehan had a good point just now. Joe Whitt's press conference was basically about blaming the players. And when the coaches go into that level detail like he does about this and that player screws up -- its sort a low key way to defend your coaching and in turn you come off defensive.

Was listening to a Chargers reporter talk about how good St. Juste has been for them this season. His PFF scores are very good. I've mentioned this before, you can argue that the corners did worse under Whitt last season than their previous gigs.

My point is maybe the coaching and scheme is meh?

 

[Conn]

Two different segments with Sheehan.

A. He had some ex-player film Junkie do a film review on the last game. One of his points is miscommunications on bunch sets, etc is about not practicing it enough during the week. He checked that with a coach who told him, yeah if they are struggiling with that, it's stuff you prepare and practice for during the week. And clearly they are unprepared for it. So if it were them they'd continue to do bunch sets, put people in motion untih this team can stop it.

B. I think Sheehan had a good point just now. Joe Whitt's press conference was basically about blaming the players. And when the coaches go into that level detail like he does about this and that player screws up -- its sort a low key way to defend your coaching and in turn you come off defensive.

Was listening to a Chargers reporter talk about how good St. Juste has been for them this season. His PFF scores are very good. I've mentioned this before, you can argue that the corners did worse under Whitt last season than their previous gigs.

My point is maybe the coaching and scheme is meh?

Scary thought given it’s unlikely Quinn will be ready to shed Whitt after two seasons especially now with all the injury excuses. Three poor seasons, yeah I think he’d fire him, but I don’t want to wait three if the coaching and scheme are a problem.

You were early on the Whitt skepticism (and seemingly correct) last year, but I think most are coming around to the idea that the scheme and game day play calling is meh. But the idea that someone who specialized in DB’s is actively making our DB’s worse is the really scary thing, at a minimum you’d think that would have improved rather than gotten worse even if the overall package as a DC is bad.

Rough times ahead for Quinn because the media and fan heat on Whitt will continue to rise even if Daniels starts taking over games again later in the season.

 

[SkinsFTW]

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

Two different segments with Sheehan.

A. He had some ex-player film Junkie do a film review on the last game. One of his points is miscommunications on bunch sets, etc is about not practicing it enough during the week. He checked that with a coach who told him, yeah if they are struggiling with that, it's stuff you prepare and practice for during the week. And clearly they are unprepared for it. So if it were them they'd continue to do bunch sets, put people in motion untih this team can stop it.

What is truly odd about the communication issues is the vast majority of the players who are in the secondary were here last year, and even more so now that Harris is on IR. Lattimore, Sainristil, Reeves, Quan Martin, Percy Butler are the main players playing at the moment, and they all were here to finish the season. The only exception is Amos, who's a rookie. If Will Harris was playing, that's a difference because he replaced Chinn. But it's mostly the same group.

You'd think they would be able to communicate by now.

And what teams are doing to them is stuff Bill Walsh rolled out in like 1981, it's not that complicated.

It's somewhat baffling. And to your point, I wonder if defensive backs coach Tommy Donatell (I looked it up) is a part of the problem? I did go back to what the connection to Donatell was for Quinn/Whitt, and none was immediately apparent. He was with the Seahawks from 2017 - 2020, but Quinn was gone before he got there, and I don't think he overlapped with Peters or Whitt anywhere. So he doesn't seem like a typical Ron Rivera "You might be incompetent but I've known you forever" type of hire.

But there is no question the DBs are struggling. I'd put some of that on Whitt and some of it on the position coach, and then some of it on the players.

B. I think Sheehan had a good point just now. Joe Whitt's press conference was basically about blaming the players. And when the coaches go into that level detail like he does about this and that player screws up -- its sort a low key way to defend your coaching and in turn you come off defensive.

I listened to Whitt's opening statment on Galdi this morning, and I was struck by how detailed he was and how he pointed out specifically who screwed up on what play. He didn't say the names, but he gave enough of a description that Galdi said "the culprit on the first play was Amos, and on the second were Reeves and Sainristil" (I might have gotten those names mixed up, but the point is, Galdi was able to name them easily.)

I don't know if I read it entirely as defensive. But I found it oddly specific and pointed. I also found it really insightful.

It could be that Whitt has reached his, (wait for it) wits end on how to get through to players and they ARE coaching this stuff up and the players just aren't able to absorb and execute it, and so he's using the media as a mechanism to say, "look, I know what I'm doing, we're coaching it up, I'll even tell you the technique we're coaching on when to go for the ball and when to wrap up, and if I'm telling you dunder heads, you think we haven't been drilling it?" and then let the players hear it and take some heat.

I don't know the reasoning, and I'm not sure it was defensive, it could be defensive, it could be exasperation, I dunno, but long story short, the players aren't playing well and everybody shares some blame in that.

Was listening to a Chargers reporter talk about how good St. Juste has been for them this season. His PFF scores are very good. I've mentioned this before, you can argue that the corners did worse under Whitt last season than their previous gigs.

My point is maybe the coaching and scheme is meh?

A Chargers guy was on Galdi today, and Galdi asked him about St. Juste, and the guy said essentially:

1. He's not starting
2. They are REALLY limiting what they ask him to do.
3. Whenever he's on the field, they run cover 3, and they don't ask him to do much
4. When they had him cover in preseason, it didn't look so good.

I'm not going to knock PFF, they can only grade what they see (See Conn, NEW LEAF!), but the grade can also be somewhat deceiving. If they're only asking him to do REALLY easy things, and he's doing them well, he should get a good grade for it. However, I think that's really a credit to the Chargers to put him in a position to succeed. Last year, he was put into a position to fail because they literally had no other options who could play.

 

[skinsinparadise]

Scary thought given it’s unlikely Quinn will be ready to shed Whitt after two seasons especially now with all the injury excuses. Three poor seasons, yeah I think he’d fire him, but I don’t want to wait three if the coaching and scheme are a problem.

You were early on the Whitt skepticism (and seemingly correct) last year, but I think most are coming around to the idea that the scheme and game day play calling is meh. But the idea that someone who specialized in DB’s is actively making our DB’s worse is the really scary thing, at a minimum you’d think that would have improved rather than gotten worse even if the overall package as a DC is bad.

Rough times ahead for Quinn because the media and fan heat on Whitt will continue to rise even if Daniels starts taking over games again later in the season.

Thanks. And don't get me wrong, I am still not certain one way or another about Whitt. But I've seen enough to be skeptical.

Sheehan's point was really good as to providing deep explanations about how players screwed up like Whitt does in his press conferences -- is a way to deflect blame and comes off defensive.

I didn't really think of it in that way until Sheehan explained the point. But digesting his point, it feels on the money. lol, as a boss in my own right, if i am explaining to a client why something didn't go right and I hit the point to them that my employees were directed well by me but here's how this employee screwed this up and this is how another screwed it up, too and explained how in detail -- its sort of a slick way to put the blame on them. And you cover yourself a little by then complementing the players about how hard they try and how they will improve. It's a slick as well to do it that way.

You are sort of explaining why you aren't at fault. Explain why its not you but them by diving into the details. then you damn them with faint praise at the end.

i suspect Whitt isn't trying to be slick. I think Sheehan is right, he's being defensive. And on that front, he's letting his instincts take over. He seems to have a theme to hit his players every week. He had the eye discipline, forgetting what the prior week was but I recall it was some theme, this week its player wearing capes trying to do too much.

They talk ball is life but they had less picks last year then they did the season. Corners mostly performed worse with Whitt at the helm than previously -- and the fact that St. Juste is killing it elsewhere (lol, even on a limied basis apparently) is just another log on the fire.

I'd also add when a coordinator is really good -- you starting hearing about it. Like wow, does this dude scheme it up, disguise their coverages, creative blitzes, or wow this guy really puts in a ton of time into it, or whatever -- you got nothing like that about Whitt.

 

[skinsinparadise]

1. He's not starting
2. They are REALLY limiting what they ask him to do.
3. Whenever he's on the field, they run cover 3, and they don't ask him to do much
4. When they had him cover in preseason, it didn't look so good.

I'm not going to knock PFF, they can only grade what they see (See Conn, NEW LEAF!), but the grade can also be somewhat deceiving. If they're only asking him to do REALLY easy things, and he's doing them well, he should get a good grade for it. However, I think that's really a credit to the Chargers to put him in a position to succeed. Last year, he was put into a position to fail because they literally had no other options who could play.

As to St. Juste. Fair enough. He's played the equivalent of one game. And is ranked as the 9th best corner in coverage from PFF.

The PFF was the gravy to the point, what got my attention was a dude on Sheehan's show (if I remebering the right show) who covers the Chargers said he's been really good.

I'd add we got at times the limited basis version of St. Juste, and it wasn't good last year. I recall for example he didn't start versus the Saints. He comes in on a limited basis and gets burned and makes a killer penalty.

 

[skinsinparadise]

It's somewhat baffling. And to your point, I wonder if defensive backs coach Tommy Donatell (I looked it up) is a part of the problem? I did go back to what the connection to Donatell was for Quinn/Whitt, and none was immediately apparent. He was with the Seahawks from 2017 - 2020, but Quinn was gone before he got there, and I don't think he overlapped with Peters or Whitt anywhere. So he doesn't seem like a typical Ron Rivera "You might be incompetent but I've known you forever" type of hire.

But there is no question the DBs are struggling. I'd put some of that on Whitt and some of it on the position coach, and then some of it on the players.

I'd add just two weeks ago if you watch that presser, Whitt was bragging about how good the secondary was and how they communicate "great" with each other.

He was bragging about how good they were statistically on third down, too.

I think he does it subconsiously, that is its the coaching and scheme is really good in his press conferences when they have good games. And conversely when the defense struggles its on ther players. He's a good communicator so makes both points with some finesse. But there is an undercurrent to both themes from what I can tell.

And its not dramatic-binary like that. But i do feel its a bit of a pattern.

To your point, it could be that he actually believes that. And that's fine. But look when someone like Gregg Williams who had an ego takes a victory lap, I get it more.

And Joe comes off like a nice guy. So am not saying he's a bad dude. Far from it. But I just don't get a lot of confidence that he is on his way to being a great coordinator.

And the only reason why I care a little about what he says in the conferences is because its the only window we have as to his thinking.

 

[CuredFromBatteredFanSyndrome]

Being real, at no time ever have I thought to myself, damn -Whitt is dealing out here today. Like I’ve done before once in a blue moon with the likes of Jim Haslett. It seems that in the games where our defense has performed well, it’s against lesser offenses and the stats come in packs via individual performances. I can’t really think of a time where scheme was the key to a good defensive performance. It never seems like we are a step ahead at stopping what good teams want to do.

 

[Conn]

As to St. Juste. Fair enough. He's played the equivalent of one game. And is ranked as the 9th best corner in coverage from PFF.

The PFF was the gravy to the point, what got my attention was a dude on Sheehan's show (if I remebering the right show) who covers the Chargers said he's been really good.

I think we all want to have the sort of FO/coaching staff that can pinpoint the strengths of an underrated player, plug them into a specific role that hides their weaknesses, and watch them thrive in that role and then go get overpaid elsewhere by a less discerning org while we reap the compensatory picks and develop the next homegrown guy. That’s the dream.

So it’s disheartening that we don’t seem to be on the road to that reality right now with the defensive scheme and personnel usage.

 

[Riggotoni]

St Juste might be doing better, but after watching the Rams game last night I can confidently declare that Forbes still sucks donkey balls.
Last year teams were running all over us, so Peters added more bulk, mostly with the Eagles in mind. Now our defense is just too slow and gets embarrassed by any kind of offensive creativity.