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Thread: Nationals

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    Yeah no reason, other than ruining the arm of an amazing pitcher.
    If they were worried about "ruining" him, they shouldn't have pitched him at all. There's no real evidence that shutting him down when they did was any better than letting him pitch all season or not pitching him at all this and bringing him back in 2013.

    The only facts are (via James Andrews) that the tendon is weaker after the surgery for 1-2 years, and that a second Tommy John Surgery greatly reduces recovery rates.

    Its simply faulty logic.

    EDIT: You'll notice a familiar name at the end of the list of examples: Adam Wainwright. Yeah, that Adam Wainwright, who shut down the Nats on Monday night.
    Last edited by Lanky Livingston; 10-10-12 at 04:53 PM.
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  2. #42

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    George Mason

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    I'm going with what I've heard the experts say. Not what talking heads that have an interest in drumming up controversy for ratings say.

    The experts I've heard have said the nationals did the right thing.

    I can't argue the subject because I'm not nearly intelligent medically or in terms of baseball history. I'm simply picking the side that I believe has the most intelligence.

    Wouldn't have mattered today always. 0 runs is a hitting problem not a pitching problem
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  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeSr619 View Post
    what Im curious about..and I could be completely wrong here but:

    why didnt they shut him down say game 125 and then bring him back right before the end of the regular season so he could be available for the playoffs?
    Again, I'm repeating what I've heard experts I trust say, but...

    It's not just games. They throw every day to keep loose. If he took those days off from games he'd still be throwing. Also it's not just general pitch count and inning count, high stress pitches do more to your arm; so playoff pitches would take a greater toll.

    They couldn't just shut him down completely either because he'd need a spring training equivalent before coming back. Which, logistical issues aside, he'd now have two spring trainings in one summer.

    People also asked why they couldn't just start him late. Well that means missing actual spring training and then going through his own spring training. Then what if they don't make the playoffs? Now he misses out on the number of games they wanted him to have.

    They did the exact same thing with Zimmerman last year and this year he was great. They wanted to follow the same model and they wanted him to have as normal of a season as possible as a way of getting him back to normal. All the above scenarios mean anything but a normal season for him.

    Again, these are not my opinions. They're the opinions of people I trust when it comes to baseball (regardless of how much I disagree with their opinions on football )
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  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeSr619 View Post
    what Im curious about..and I could be completely wrong here but:

    why didnt they shut him down say game 125 and then bring him back right before the end of the regular season so he could be available for the playoffs?
    That's the thing, Mike. Its not only that they shut him down, its how they did it. Very sloppy.

    And T, there are experts who say the shut down may not do anything. Ever heard of James Andrews?
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  5. #45

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    George Mason

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    Give me a break lanky, and of course I've heard of him.

    There are experts on both sides, just like every controversial issue.

    They are following the same model they established with Zimmerman. Funny how no one cared about him being shut down last year. Also funny to hear the same people advocating player safety in other sports going after a team for putting a player's health first.

    It seems like it's the people with nothing to lose advocating for him to play; talking heads that will just move on to another topic if wrong, people who don't work for the organization and won't be fired for being wrong, fans of other teams who just won't care of they're wrong.

    Did you watch his last 10 starts lanky? I did you see him quickly degrade at the end of the year? How many of strausberg's starts have you watched to compare?
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  6. #46

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    James Andrews is *the* expert.

    Apparently, the Nationals are "despised" throughout the league for sitting him also. Every other MLB GM is laughing at them:

    11:36PM EST October 10. 2012 - It was painful to watch, almost heartbreaking.

    The Washington Nationals go 79 years between playoff appearances in our nation's capital, get humiliated Wednesday, and you feel like sending flowers and sympathy cards.

    So why are we hearing laughter and celebration all across baseball?

    The Nationals might have been the most compelling story this summer, but suddenly they've become the most hated team in the game.

    After being embarrassed 8-0 by the St. Louis Cardinals and falling behind 2-1 in their National League Division Series, there was no compassion or a scintilla of empathy for them.

    Instead, we kept hearing the same refrain:

    They got what they deserve.

    "If we don't win the World Series, I don't care who does," one general manager told USA TODAY Sports, "as long as it's not those guys.

    "They don't deserve to win it. Not after what they did."

    Said a National League GM: "I hope they go down in flames. I hope it takes another 79 years before they get back to the playoffs. That's how strongly I feel about it."

    The Nationals, baseball executives say, brought this on themselves. They were the defiant ones. They were the ones telling the world they were smarter than everyone else, shutting down ace Stephen Strasburg after 159 1/3 innings, believing they were protecting their prized asset for a lot of playoff games in their future.

    "We'll be back," Nationals GM Mike Rizzo said after they clinched the National League East title, "and doing this a couple more times."

    That was the quote heard 'round the baseball world, with general managers and executives making sure everyone saw it. Who do they think they are, the Yankees? Are the Philadelphia Phillies going to defect from the NL East? Are the Atlanta Braves retiring with Chipper Jones?

    What if the Nationals don't get back during Strasburg's stay in Washington? What if this is their best chance to ever get to the Series? How do you live with that?

    And how would you like to be Ross Detwiler today? He's the poor soul taking Strasburg's spot in the playoff rotation, which in three games has yielded a 9.00 ERA with 25 baserunners. Now, he's the one responsible for saving the season.

    Win or lose today, the Strasburg talk will never completely go away.

    Nationals players, particularly veterans, have grumbled and might sound off more once they depart.

    "I don't think there's any way around it," Nats outfielder Jayson Werth said. "It's going to be a topic."

    The shame is that general managers, executives and scouts greatly respect and admire Rizzo. He's a scout's scout, the one who turned a laughingstock into one of the most talented organizations in baseball.

    Who knows, maybe Rizzo is even right this time. Maybe he'll get the last laugh, and the Nationals will win the World Series next year, and every year until Strasburg hits free agency.

    But one more loss, and the reverberations of the Strasburg decision will begin.
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  7. #47

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    Florida Atlantic

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    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    There are experts on both sides, just like every controversial issue.
    That's exactly what I just told you when I cited James Andrews when you claimed your experts were the only ones who could possibly be correct.

    They are following the same model they established with Zimmerman. Funny how no one cared about him being shut down last year. Also funny to hear the same people advocating player safety in other sports going after a team for putting a player's health first.
    Zimmermann is a quality pitcher, but he's no Ace. He's not a game-changer. You're comparing apples to oranges.

    It seems like it's the people with nothing to lose advocating for him to play; talking heads that will just move on to another topic if wrong, people who don't work for the organization and won't be fired for being wrong, fans of other teams who just won't care of they're wrong.

    Did you watch his last 10 starts lanky? I did you see him quickly degrade at the end of the year? How many of strausberg's starts have you watched to compare?
    I'm not sure my professional evaluation of Strasburg's talent is very relevant here. But I apologize, your watching him pitch clearly makes you more knowledgeable than James Andrews. That hack!
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  8. #48

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    Also, are you sure you watched that many Nationals games? You don't know how to spell any of the players' names.
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  9. #49

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    George Mason

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    That's exactly what I just told you when I cited James Andrews when you claimed your experts were the only ones who could possibly be correct.
    No... not quite, but nice try. I repeated the opinions of the experts that I've listened to and I trust. I then made sure to make it very clear that is all I was doing. I've done that every time you've rehashed this same old issue. You can go back through the pages.

    I never said anything negative about James Andrews. I don't listen to him talk baseball every single day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    Zimmermann is a quality pitcher, but he's no Ace. He's not a game-changer. You're comparing apples to oranges.
    Up until September he was in the discussion for the Cy Young award.
    He's a little better than a quality pitcher, and he's most certainly a game changer. You clearly haven't watched him pitch.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?p...level='ALL'

    Zimmermann is 7th in the league in ERA and thats with a bad sepetember.

    When you compare his regular season numbers to Strasburg's they're not that far apart. The biggest thing is Strasburg throws more strikeouts.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    I'm not sure my professional evaluation of Strasburg's talent is very relevant here. But I apologize, your watching him pitch clearly makes you more knowledgeable than James Andrews. That hack!
    I didn't claim to be more knowledgeable than Andrews, in fact MULTIPLE times I've made sure to point out I'm not a medical/baseball guy. Keep ignoring that though, I know how you hate when stats and facts get in the way of your arguments as they often do.

    You clearly fall into the 'nothing to lose' category. Have you even watched him pitch one single game in its entirety?

    Anyone who followed him this season witnessed him fall off drastically towards the end.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?p...level='ALL'

    In his last 10 starts he didn't make it through 6 innings 4 times. only made it through 7 once.
    In his first 18 starts he didn't make it through 6 innings 4 times, and made it through 7 4 times.

    He was wearing down. His pitch location was awful, and he was being pulled early from games. He was done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    Also, are you sure you watched that many Nationals games? You don't know how to spell any of the players' names.
    I've watched about half of them probably How many have you watched?

    Serious question lanky. You have strong opinions on Strasburg. Tell me, how many times have you watched him play?
    Last edited by tshile; 10-11-12 at 09:03 AM.
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  10. #50

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    Florida Atlantic

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    Not gonna let you derail another thread so this will be my last response.

    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    I never said anything negative about James Andrews. I don't listen to him talk baseball every single day.
    This is not a baseball issue, its a sports surgery issue, and James Andrews is *the* expert. Did you even read the article I posted earlier? Obviously not, because you would have seen all the examples of guys who pitched more and far less than Strasburg and the mixed-bag of results.

    Serious question lanky. You have strong opinions on Strasburg. Tell me, how many times have you watched him play?
    LOL. I guess our *professional* opinions of Strasburg's pitching are very important to you! I don't know how many times I watched Strasburg pitch, T, but its also irrelevant. There are plenty of reasons his play could have fallen off - pitching is a lot of mental toughness, couldn't be his play fell off because he knew he was being shut down, now could it?
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  11. #51

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    George Mason

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    Derail the thread? I'm the only one here that seems interested in discussing the nationals outside of the strasburg drama... not really much to derail...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    This is not a baseball issue, its a sports surgery issue, and James Andrews is *the* expert. Did you even read the article I posted earlier? Obviously not, because you would have seen all the examples of guys who pitched more and far less than Strasburg and the mixed-bag of results.
    Yes I read it. It's a mixed-bag of results. So the team went with the method they've been using for everyone else; the same method no one has had a problem with until now.

    Funny how that works...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    LOL. I guess our *professional* opinions of Strasburg's pitching are very important to you! I don't know how many times I watched Strasburg pitch, T, but its also irrelevant. There are plenty of reasons his play could have fallen off - pitching is a lot of mental toughness, couldn't be his play fell off because he knew he was being shut down, now could it?
    I never really said what my opinion was. I'm voicing the opinions of others; people that I think know what they're talking about. My opinion is the team should do as it pleases with it's own tallent, which it did. If they decided to keep playing him because they had reason to believe he was fine I'd support that too.

    I'll take that to mean you haven't watched him play at all. So you're just jumping into a controversy you don't care about and picking a side. Cool, you fall right into the 'nothing to lose' category. If you're right you'll come back and gloat, if you're wrong you'll never be heard from on the subject again. It's a convenient position.
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  12. #52

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    T being judgemental/condescending about someone else's opinion of sports? SAY IT AIN'T SO.
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  13. #53

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    George Mason

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    werth has a very rocky start as a national, and at one point was booed when he'd come up to bat.

    couldn't think of a better guy to have the hit he had. that 13 pitch at bat was incredible to watch. cardinals pitching staff played a hell of a game tonight, could have easily gone either way.
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  14. #54

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    Virginia

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    Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Bah.
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  15. #55

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    That was just like watching a reeeeeaaaally slow Redskins game. DC teams are cursed, plain and simple.
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    You ain't bonafide

  16. #56
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    George Mason

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    The curse lives on. I want to find the source of this curse and destroy it. I'm 25 ****ing years old and on the verge of a massive heart attack. Can't take this bull**** any more.
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  17. #57

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    George Mason

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    *sigh*
    I didn't think they were a world series team this year but I hate to see them go out like that. The worst part is storen is to blame. Hate to see one guy responsible. Young pitcher with a bright future... Hopefully it doesn't mess with his head...
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  18. #58
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    George Mason

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    There's only one option now...drink myself in to oblivion.

    **** YOU EDWIN JACKSON. YOU STUPID ASS BUM.
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    F.K.A. Slacky McSlackAss

  19. #59
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    George Mason

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    Quote Originally Posted by tshile View Post
    *sigh*
    I didn't think they were a world series team this year but I hate to see them go out like that. The worst part is storen is to blame. Hate to see one guy responsible. Young pitcher with a bright future... Hopefully it doesn't mess with his head...
    The entire pen (save Clippard) is to blame.

    As well as the 4-7 hitters who decided they they were too ****ing good to show up.

    Espinosa is a ****ing bum, I want Lombardozzi next year.
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    F.K.A. Slacky McSlackAss

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    Virginia

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    The mistake was having a PH for Clippard. They had two run lead and he likely closes it out. I was livid at that move.
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