A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
Game 12 - Philly. No biggie. Just a season in the balance ...

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  1. #1
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    Default Shanahan Needs To Stand Now On Own Two Feet

    No one disliked Vinny Cerrato or thought he was more of a jerk than I did. The fact he was able to pick up a paycheck here for 10 years when no one else in the NFL would offer him a stick of gum was really aggravating.

    That said, Vinny has been gone for 2 years and Mike Shanahan coming to the end of his second season in charge of the Redskins has decided to start feeling a bit sorry for himself. Taking the opportunity in the WP to note the lack of depth, he intimated that progress has not been as swift as he hoped because there was less here 'than he thought in 2009' and there was more building to do. 'Several of the older players were here we thought would play a bit longer', etc.

    Please, Mike. I have had few issues with what you did in 2011 starting with free agency and then the draft. We picked up contributing players in free agency that were under 30 and had good character and made what appear to be some astute selections in April that will really start to pay dividends down the road as guys like Jenkins and Hankerson come back from injuries.

    But let's not gloss over 2010 and put all of that on someone else's watch.

    You came in here and really thought a 5-11 team with the oldest roster in the NFL was close to being competitive for the long-haul?

    You really thought adding a 33 year old McNabb and 30 year Jammal Brown off the injured list from New Orleans for the bread basket of your draft picks that year were the answer, or a large part of the answer?

    Instead of making those moves for McNabb and Brown, and the free agent moves for guys like Kemoeatu, Buchanon, Vonnie Holiday, Artis Hicks, and Co, wouldn't it have been a lot smarter to keep the draft choices and let 2010 ride as an awful season that had to be swallowed in order to not only climb out of the salary cap mess and the age issues, but also to give the team the top pick or one of the top 2-3 picks in the entire draft in each round?

    It would have been a dogfight to beat out Carolina for that #1 pick at 1-15, admittedly, but just think for a moment what having Cam Newton on this team right now would mean to the development of the Washington Redskins and the hope for 2012 and beyond.

    But we didn't do that. We did what most Redskins' regimes have done since Bobby Beathard left, namely trade away the draft choices and bring in someone else's leftovers and hope we can warm them up adequately to have a nice meal.

    Net result - we end up with Rex Grossman as the starting qb for the last quarter of 2010 and most of 2011.

    Anyone else have THAT scripted back in 2010 when the team opened the season?

    Come on Mike. Your too established of a coach to go scapegoating a never-was in Cerrato.

    Own up to your own mistakes and then take credit for the successes like Kerrigan, Helu, Cofield, Bowen, etc.

    Recall that Bill Walsh went 2-14 in San Francisco in 1979 installing his offense and acquiring the necessary players. Bill Parcells was 3-12-1 in New York with Giants. Gibbs started 0-5 here.

    That's what we really needed to do here.

    And you know that.
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    Snyderatto set this franchise back at least 10 years - to say anything else is disingenuous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    Snyderatto set this franchise back at least 10 years - to say anything else is disingenuous.
    Poppycock!

    They did no worse than Matt Millen. Hasn't taken D'twaa 10 years to get things turning around either.
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    but you can't blame Cerrato for Shanahan's own decision to give up valuable high draft choices for McNabb and Brown on an aging team that was 5-11 the previous season.

    if McNabb wasn't good enough at that point to beat out Vick and take a more talented Eagles' team further into the playoffs, what was he going to do here with no line and few playmakers outside of the 30 year old Cooley and Moss?

    Did Joe Gibbs complain that the reason he didn't have many 4th and 5th year starters when he arrived was because George Allen had traded all those picks away?

    No, you take responsibility for what you take on and point to the future and what YOU are going to to RIGHT, not what the other guy did WRONG.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ax View Post
    Poppycock!

    They did no worse than Matt Millen. Hasn't taken D'twaa 10 years to get things turning around either.
    Millen was fired in September 2008 - 3 drafts and FA periods later, the Lions are finally starting to turn it around. They are not as far along as I thought, and I don't think they'll make it past the Wild Card round of the playoffs. So, next year is their turn. So, Shanahallen should have 4 years too; that seems to be how long it takes to reverse a terrible FO's handy work.
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    the Lions have one thing in their favor. Martin Mayhew, a former NFL player and personnel executive that has worked his way up from scout, is now the GM.

    he's a professional, whereas Mike Shanahan is a professional coach and a part-time scout, GM and talent evaluator.

    that gives Detroit the advantage.

    note that Mayhews first moves were to trade Roy Williams to Dallas for #1, #3 and #6 draft picks and to select Matthew Stafford as the franchise quarterback.

    His first move wasn't to sign an expensive free agent or trade valuable picks FOR an aging quarterback.

    Not as far along as you thought they would be? I guess the only reason for that is Stafford's injury last year because the Lions were without a win the previous season plus before the Redskins obliged them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog's Twin View Post
    Not as far along as you thought they would be? I guess the only reason for that is Stafford's injury last year because the Lions were without a win the previous season plus before the Redskins obliged them.
    No, I thought they'd win the NFC North this season.
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  8. #8

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    You aren’t going to get any argument from me. What started happening this year is what should have happened year one for Shanahan/Allen. I understand how it happened though and the thought process. If McNabb had anything left maybe we get into the playoffs last season and a lot of the glaring needs of the team are hidden a bit and the front office has time to bring in some new blood. It would have sped the process up 2-3 years. Of course it didn’t happen like that.

    So now we’re in rebuild mode. Shanahan has to balance the need for a rebuild, which was obvious, with the need to win ball games. Going 5-11 next season will likely get Mike fired, and possibly Allen too. These guys know this. That’s why I have to think the organization is going to pull out all the stops to secure a “franchise” QB in the draft. If that takes multiple 1st round draft picks then so be it.

    Yes, I think this team was a total mess when Shanahan/Allen took over and I think real progress has been made in the level of young talent on the club, but the grace period is fast nearing the end. You see teams like the 49ers turn around in a year with a new coach and essentially the same personnel that went 6-10 last season and the first question that comes to mind is “Why not us?”
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    One positive aspect of these consecutive double-digit losing seasons is that hopefully it'll change the long-term outlook of the guy in Ashburn who is the most arrogant out there and the one that has the ultimate power......Daniel Snyder.

    Prior to the 2010 season Snyder was cited in several interviews as saying "As long as I have a coach like Joe Gibbs or Mike Shanahan, I don't have to be as involved."

    As if to say that it was nothing about how the team was constructed.....as long as I have the big name head coach, everything will be great. Look, Joe Gibbs took us to the playoffs TWICE in 4 years!

    Snyder has to be shocked at these past two seasons and probably has come to the realization that he's not so smart after all.

    Hopefully Mike will continue to build on the personnel decisions we made this past offseasons and ultimately the team will reach success and show Snyder how important the actual process is.
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    Agree, Bulldog. There seems to be a move afoot by Shanahan and his most avid followers to line up excuses for his poor 2010 roster-building performance.

    Shanny's Achilles Heel is the same as all coaches given full control of the roster. They just can't help making win-now moves.

    Even in this season, which most fans would agree was a rebuilding year, there were about 13 players 30 and over on the roster who have no future with the Skins. There are on the roster to add useless wins now. Shanny inherited about 19 and went to war with 17 in 2010.

    Unfortunately, we aren't a small market team like Green Bay which couldn't afford older vets. They have just six 30 and over and three are home grown. Lucky bastards.

    I used ProFootballReference for my estimates.
    Last edited by Oldfan; 12-27-11 at 06:21 PM.
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    If Shanny would've purged the roster of anyone 29 or older, most would complain about that too.

    Can't wait to see how he remakes the offense this off season and what our new QB looks like.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    If Shanny would've purged the roster of anyone 29 or older, most would complain about that too.
    That's true. Most fans are just as win-now oriented as coaches. They want excellence, but are only willing to pay the price for mediocrity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog's Twin View Post

    Recall that Bill Walsh went 2-14 in San Francisco in 1979 installing his offense and acquiring the necessary players. Bill Parcells was 3-12-1 in New York with Giants. Gibbs started 0-5 here.

    That's what we really needed to do here.

    And you know that.
    Add Jimmy johnson and the cowboys to that list. The cowboys were the oldest team in the league when JJ took over. he purged the roster, went 1-15, and drafted emmit, aikman, and irvin,

    Shanny should have taken the same approach, and was absolutely foolish to trade picks for McNabb and Brown. The good news is he sees that now. He's just to arrogant to admit that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    No, I thought they'd win the NFC North this season.
    You sure did, but you aren't the only one. I was ridiculed by many on this board when I predicted that the Packers would run away with the division and win at least 14 games. I'm not as dumb as I appear to be

    I also predicted the Colts would miss the playoffs. Granted, that's likely a result based entirely on Manning's injury, but I'll still take it.
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    They can't all be super smart like Brunell.
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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeSr619 View Post
    what, you didnt think Orlovsky and Painter could step in for Peyton? and that run game!! you didnt think it could take over?
    Don't forget Kerry Collins
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    I think the average career of an NFL player is about 4 years. Given that, Shanahan better be able to turn it around next year. Because by the end of next year, the team will be almost entirely his. Every choice. Even now, there are relatively few holdovers from the Zorn era.

    Yes, it takes a while to build an NFL team, but three years is almost a lifetime in the NFL. We're starting to see fruits on offense and defense. Next years, there better be some harvesting going on.
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    This thread is way off base, IMO. Shanahan infused the roster with twelve draft picks. When was the last time we had 12 draft picks make the roster out of two drafts, let alone just one? Three drafts? FOUR? Answer: We have only nine draft picks from the previous drafts. The previous 3? The previous 4? No. Every. Single. Previous. Draft. Nine. And that includes 4 from Shanahan's 2010 draft (and breakout player Perry Riley).

    Before this season, they shipped Carter, Daniels, Galloway, Holliday, Kemoeatu & Dockery, all 30+ years old. And they paid money for Brown - can't believe they spend money on a big name OT, and people are complaining about it! They took a gamble on his injury and appear to maybe have lost - but he can still come back next year and play well. He, along with McNabb, Stallworth, etc. were never meant as more than placeholders though.

    Under 30 UDFAs like Armstrong, Smith, Montgomery, Paulsen & Young have not only made the roster but are contributing significantly.

    Some have made the argument that these guys are only on the team and contributing because the talent level was so low, which might be fair. Its also a ridiculous argument, because you have to start somewhere. Now if Shanahan only hits on 2 or 3 of the players in the 2012 draft (or god forbid goes Oh-fer), THEN we can start criticizing him. But to start now is way way way premature.

    And yes, he can still lay blame on Cerrato until after the 2012 draft - he came in to a scorched-earth roster...and he's done really well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    This thread is way off base, IMO. Shanahan infused the roster with twelve draft picks. When was the last time we had 12 draft picks make the roster out of two drafts, let alone just one? Three drafts? FOUR? Answer: We have only nine draft picks from the previous drafts. The previous 3? The previous 4? No. Every. Single. Previous. Draft. Nine. And that includes 4 from Shanahan's 2010 draft (and breakout player Perry Riley).

    Before this season, they shipped Carter, Daniels, Galloway, Holliday, Kemoeatu & Dockery, all 30+ years old. And they paid money for Brown - can't believe they spend money on a big name OT, and people are complaining about it! They took a gamble on his injury and appear to maybe have lost - but he can still come back next year and play well. He, along with McNabb, Stallworth, etc. were never meant as more than placeholders though.

    Under 30 UDFAs like Armstrong, Smith, Montgomery, Paulsen & Young have not only made the roster but are contributing significantly.

    Some have made the argument that these guys are only on the team and contributing because the talent level was so low, which might be fair. Its also a ridiculous argument, because you have to start somewhere. Now if Shanahan only hits on 2 or 3 of the players in the 2012 draft (or god forbid goes Oh-fer), THEN we can start criticizing him. But to start now is way way way premature.

    And yes, he can still lay blame on Cerrato until after the 2012 draft - he came in to a scorched-earth roster...and he's done really well.

    couldn't disagree more.

    1) Shanallen tubed the first year with a whole bunch of bad personnel decisions. there is no way around that FACT. He is totally accountable for the single most destructive/unproductive aspect of this team: QUARTERBACK. your bandaid completely sidesteps this little accountability matter.

    2) So what if 9 players made the roster. Your only argument is also a who cares: it's based on the notion that we haven't had that many players in previous drafts make the roster. This is an old statistical canard - measure progress by setting the baseline rediculously low. moreover....it avoids what really matters...performance. It just throws out some subjective assertions with no proof whatsoever. moroeover, if you think about it, with the exception of Kerrigan...there isn't even enough data to support any performance assertions.

    3) Some rejoinders

    - no one other than the previously mentioned Kerrigan has played enough to establish a baseline for judging "good"..."promising"...etc. how many flash in the pans have we seen over the years? lots. as you all are fond of pointing out - you have to give a draft class 2-3 years before applying a label.

    - you sidestep some other questionable decisions: TW for example. again...accountability. Shananhan has to be judged on all the evidence.

    - the actual record and stats belie any qualitative assertions about performance

    -these guys can't friggin stay healthy

    I fall in line with those who argue that Shanahan...after totally misjudging the talent on hand when he arrived.....has successfully adjusted by changing THE STRATEGY. there's simply no way to assess the success/quality of the 2011 draft class: not enough time on the field, too many personnel changes, too many injuries, pretty bad stats overall (which can be attributed somewhat to all the change - i.e., there was never a stable set of starters to forge into a "team").

    The jury is still out on Shanahan. IMO...to belabor the obvious...if he fails in fixing the QB situation...going into his 3rd season.....his overall legacy will be a failure.
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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanky Livingston View Post
    ...And yes, he can still lay blame on Cerrato until after the 2012 draft - he came in to a scorched-earth roster...and he's done really well.
    I think you are looking at Mike through burgundy glasses, Lanky.

    You say he inherited a "scorched-earth roster." Well, if it was as bad as all that, how do you excuse the fact that Mike thought he could make a few moves and win with it?

    If Mike inherited a scorched-earth roster, maybe we were wrong in thinking that Jim Zorn couldn't coach since he won four games with that pitiful roster and he had New Orleans, the eventual Super Bowl winner, on the ropes, lucky to beat us, with that bunch.
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