A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
Game 12 - Philly. No biggie. Just a season in the balance ...

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    Default Why Shanahan needs to go NOW

    Take a look around the league. There is an incredibly consistent pattern.
    Virtually all the best coaches, and the teams with the best records, have coaches who were "groomed" into the position, as opposed to re-tread coaches, like Shanahan, whose game has passed their time.
    __________________________________________________ _________________________
    FIRST, here's a list of what I consider "young coaches" who were "groomed" into their position, as opposed to being recycled as an older coach, and how they're doing. The main criteria here in the first list is that they are still at their original team that made them head coach :
    __________________________________________________ _________________________
    The TWO young Harbaugh brothers. Their 49ers and Ravens are 10-2 and 9-3 (AND one of those losses shouldn't count in my stats, cuz it was against the other brother, LOL)
    Sean Payton : Super Bowl Champ AND currently 9-3
    Mike Tomlin : Super Bowl Champ AND currently 9-3
    Mike McCarthy : Not real young, but clearly groomed into the position as he's still with his first head-coaching gig, and his record for the last 2 seasons speaks for itself.
    Marvin Lewis : (maybe not so young anymore, but a late bloomer, and definitely a "groomer" as opposed to a "re-tread") and he's 7-5
    Jason Garrett : First place in the division at 7-5
    Hue Jackson : In his first year, taking over the most embarrassing, disastrous team in the league, has his team at 7-5, after losing his starting QB.
    Jim Schwartz : Lions are a brand new team, capable of beating anyone at 7-5
    Mike Smith : His Falcons have been competitive and atop or near the top of the division his whole tenure - currently 7-5
    Gary Kubiak : Again, a coach still with his first team, has his Texans at 9-3
    Lovie Smith : Took his team to the Super Bowl, and still has them in playoff contention at 7-5
    Rex Ryan : 2 AFC Championships, and currently 7-5 in playoff contention.
    Ken Whisenhunt : Not currently a good team, but he DID take his team to the Super Bowl in his 1st or 2nd year.

    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    NOW, let's look at the "re-treads". Guys who have bounced around to at least 2 different teams, and are currently failing.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    Shanahan : In his first 2 seasons, he's 10-18 (Enough said)
    Chan Gailey : He sucked as a head coach prior to the Bills, and their initial fast start was a fluke just like our 3-1 start was, as he's now he's at 5-7
    Norv Turner : Norv. Enough said.
    Pete Carroll : Surely a re-tread. He was a clearly a failure in his first stint in the NFL before being demoted to the college ranks at USC, and is no better this time around in the league, currently 5-7.
    Tom Coughlin : Game has clearly passed by Old Tom, in his 2nd gig. (yea, he barely won a SB, but he's done. Never will be effective again. Maybe fired after this year.) If he manages another HC job after the Giants, he'll surely be a re-tread failure just like former SB winner Shanahan.
    (Can we include Gibbs II here, even tho he's gone, just to prove a point, that the game passed him by, the 2nd time around ? )

    Now, before you object, of course there are exceptions to the rule.
    But number one, they are rare. And the exceeding amount here proves my point. SECONDLY, of all the young coaches that are doing poorly right now, pretty much all of them have only been a HC for a short time, so they probably just need time. (i.e. Ron Rivera, Pat Shurmur, Mel Tucker, etc)

    Also, not only notice the amazing pattern of young, groomed coaches doing better than the re-treads. But also notice there are much more of them. It's as if teams are realizing, (except for teams like us) that you have find that young guy with potential, not the used car, with too much mileage on it, that's ready to retire. We've taken the same approach with coaches that we have with players in the past, buy trying to buy a Super Bowl, with players who are past their prime, even tho they may have been a big-name at one time. The game has passed them by.

    Moral of the story. We need to find the next young gem, who is fresh, rapidly growing and in-touch with TODAY'S NFL, AND in touch with TODAY'S YOUNG PLAYERS. A young coach can connect with those young players !! Not a "has-been" coach like Shanny. So, not only are the average player's ages getting younger, so are the HC ages. Except ours, pretty much.
    Last edited by Fear The Spear; 12-05-11 at 10:25 PM.
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    Default

    I think that has been the problem with team over the last fifteen years or so. The coach does not have the opportunity to build there team. The type of offense or defense that a coach runs requires time to get the right personal. I say if Shanahan and the Skins don't contend in 2012-2013 season then maybe this subject needs revisited but I think Shanny builds the offense after this season and I think we are a playoff team next year.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinsfan76 View Post
    I think that has been the problem with team over the last fifteen years or so. The coach does not have the opportunity to build there team. The type of offense or defense that a coach runs requires time to get the right personal. I say if Shanahan and the Skins don't contend in 2012-2013 season then maybe this subject needs revisited but I think Shanny builds the offense after this season and I think we are a playoff team next year.
    We are FAR from a playoff team. Surely not a year away.
    We have holes like Swiss Cheese, that will take years to fill, if we fill them at all.
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    While I'm not dismissing what you are saying in terms of the success rate of some of these first-time head coaches that you mentioned, I will say this...

    after the debacle that was Jim Zorn, I believe that Dan didn't really have many options in terms of restablishing some confidence, faith, and trust in the fanbase. He tied his own hands so to speak, and I believe that considering the circumstances, and considering the fact that many fans were at a breaking point, he needed to bring in somebody with credibility like Shanahan. Could you really follow up the hiring of Zorn with another unknown commodity who had no prior NFL experience in a market that has been starving for a winner for the better part of the past 20 seasons? Tough call. I'm glad I wasn't the one who had to make that decision.
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    12 draft picks made the team this year, the first time that's happened in what seems like forever, and you're ready to give up and look for another coach?

    Unbelieveable........

    And we call Dan Snyder impatient.
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    Florida State

    Default

    This was my argument before he was hired. He does not seem to have the same hunger as say...the Harbaugh's, Tomlin...

    But, we have to bite the bullet and give him the time to prove himself. There is no way we can hire someone new at this point. There must be tremendous improvement by this time next year. But to cut him loose now would definitely be premature.
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    The more things change...the more they stay the same. It's like deja vu all over again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elephant View Post
    But to cut him loose now would definitely be premature.
    And a franchise killer.

    We would be so toxic that the only kind of coach we could get would be of the Jim Fassel/Zorn ilk.

    No thanks.
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    College at Brockport

    Default

    I wanted Russ Grimm to begin with. But, Shanahan is here now. Dumping him now would be a really, really bad decision for long term longevity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Hog View Post
    While I'm not dismissing what you are saying in terms of the success rate of some of these first-time head coaches that you mentioned, I will say this...

    after the debacle that was Jim Zorn, I believe that Dan didn't really have many options in terms of restablishing some confidence, faith, and trust in the fanbase. He tied his own hands so to speak, and I believe that considering the circumstances, and considering the fact that many fans were at a breaking point, he needed to bring in somebody with credibility like Shanahan. Could you really follow up the hiring of Zorn with another unknown commodity who had no prior NFL experience in a market that has been starving for a winner for the better part of the past 20 seasons? Tough call. I'm glad I wasn't the one who had to make that decision.
    Zorn is a bad example. He leap-frogged his promotion, essentially going from a QB coach to a head coach. Was never a Coordinator. That was the mistake - it wasn't a mistake of going after an unknown commodity. How many of the young coaches I listed above, went into a HC position without becoming a coordinator first ?

    Who cares what the fans think ? That's yet another mistake Snyder made, if he picked Shanahan just to "please" the fans or gain credibility.
    The smart thing would have been going after an "unknown commodity" with at least a decent resume, that gives him the best chance of being a HC, not one with a Zorn-like resume.
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    You don't give Coughlin enough credit. He's 71-52 with the Giants. One losing season in eight years (his first), four 10+ winning seasons, a couple division championships and a superbowl win. If we had that here we'd be crapping our pants with glee.

    And if you are going to bring Gibbs II into the discussion you have to also add Parcells and Holmgren, who both took multiple teams deep into the playoffs. You also fail to note that Shanahan himself was a retread when he became the Broncos head coach, and he won a couple superbowls. Bill Belichek was another retread. He's pretty good ...

    Bringing in an established coach is like bringing in an establised QB. You know what you're getting and the upside isn't usually as high. But the downside isn't as low either. Was I a big fan of bringing in Shanahan? Not really, but since he's here you have to give him more time. Two seasons isn't enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry View Post
    You don't give Coughlin enough credit. He's 71-52 with the Giants. One losing season in eight years (his first), four 10+ winning seasons, a couple division championships and a superbowl win. If we had that here we'd be crapping our pants with glee.

    And if you are going to bring Gibbs II into the discussion you have to also add Parcells and Holmgren, who both took multiple teams deep into the playoffs. You also fail to note that Shanahan himself was a retread when he became the Broncos head coach, and he won a couple superbowls. Bill Belichek was another retread. He's pretty good ...

    Bringing in an established coach is like bringing in an establised QB. You know what you're getting and the upside isn't usually as high. But the downside isn't as low either. Was I a big fan of bringing in Shanahan? Not really, but since he's here you have to give him more time. Two seasons isn't enough.
    yup. Snyder has to give Shanahan his full contract run. The roster has to be turned over. That takes 2-3 years. Good draft next year and some of this years rooks regaining their health and now we're talking a very young team with bona fide talent. Shanahan's first year was a mis-hit by both Allen and Shanahan. Bad as the record is this year...we're not seeing the patently stupid stuff we saw during the Zorn years. we simply don't have competitive talent. Shanahan inherited an empty cupboard.....he needs to replenish....STARTING WITH A QB AS THE NUMBER 4 PICK IN THE 2012 DRAFT........................
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    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    we're not seeing the patently stupid stuff we saw during the Zorn years.
    You don't see these Shanahan choices as patently stupid stuff, when it comes to the roster changes you speak of ? :

    McNabb
    Grossman
    Beck

    ?

    And you talk about re-building and drafting, where do you get the confidence he will make the right draft choice at QB ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fear The Spear View Post
    You don't see these Shanahan choices as patently stupid stuff, when it comes to the roster changes you speak of ? :

    McNabb
    Grossman
    Beck

    ?

    And you talk about re-building and drafting, where do you get the confidence he will make the right draft choice at QB ?

    not on the field. this team does execute better than it has in many years. it simply lacks enough talent - especially on offense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fansince62 View Post
    not on the field. this team does execute better than it has in many years.
    How about the play-calling and nepotism, which has nothing to do with talent - in fact the play-calling goes AGAINST the talent we have -

    PASS, PASS, PASS, PASS, RUN, PASS, PASS, PASS, PASS, RUN, PASS, PASS, PASS, PASS, RUN,

    With the "talent" that we have, it should be the REVERSE of that !!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fear The Spear View Post
    You don't see these Shanahan choices as patently stupid stuff, when it comes to the roster changes you speak of ? :

    McNabb
    Grossman
    Beck

    ?

    And you talk about re-building and drafting, where do you get the confidence he will make the right draft choice at QB ?
    Our 2011 draft was the best draft we've have in decades. The fact that the guys standing out on this team right now are young guys, often mid-round picks is a very positive sign. On top of that we've managed to collect 9 picks for the next draft and 8 for the one after that. So not only are we making good selections with our picks, but we're making more of them as well. These are very good trends we haven't seen around these parts in 20 years. I wouldn't overlook them lightly.

    You are correct that McNabb was a colossal blunder, one I was especially critical of, but based on how the team has drafted and managed free agency outside of that, it's fair to conclude that the McNabb fiasco is the exception and not the rule.

    Shanahan will live and die with whomever he picks as his QB going into next season. If the team crashes and burns again at it's QBs hands like it did last year, Shanahan will be gone. And rightfully so. But you have to let him make that choice. He's recovered from his initial mistake well enough to warrant it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    12 draft picks made the team this year, the first time that's happened in what seems like forever, and you're ready to give up and look for another coach?

    Unbelieveable........

    And we call Dan Snyder impatient.
    Quote Originally Posted by Henry View Post
    Our 2011 draft was the best draft we've have in decades. The fact that the guys standing out on this team right now are young guys, often mid-round picks is a very positive sign.
    No offense, but the fact that 12 draft picks made the team don't mean squat.
    It's really easy for rookies to make a team, when it's a crappy team they're playing for (which by your own words, you all admitted we just lack talent). So if we're so lacking in talent, why is it such a surprise that all these rookies did not find enough competition on the team, to bump them off the roster ?
    Secondly, it's not a matter of just making the team on a crappy roster, but how you perform. Other than Kerrigan and Helu, none of them have really produced, meaning the verdict on the draft is still out
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fear The Spear View Post
    No offense, but the fact that 12 draft picks made the team don't mean squat.
    It's really easy for rookies to make a team, when it's a crappy team they're playing for (which by your own words, you all admitted we just lack talent). So if we're so lacking in talent, why is it such a surprise that all these rookies did not find enough competition on the team, to bump them off the roster ?
    Secondly, it's not a matter of just making the team on a crappy roster, but how you perform. Other than Kerrigan and Helu, none of them have really produced, meaning the verdict on the draft is still out
    So the jury is still out on the players but not a coach in his second year here?
    Even when everyone here admits the cupboard is bare,especially on offense?

    I'm confused.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieselPwr44 View Post
    So the jury is still out on the players but not a coach in his second year here?
    Even when everyone here admits the cupboard is bare,especially on offense?

    I'm confused.......
    The rookies are in their first season. Shanny is in his second.
    And what he has done in his 2nd season, with better players ? Gotten worse.
    Does that sound like progression or rebuilding to you.
    There's plenty of examples of new coaches coming in, and improving somewhat, and in some cases significant improvement after their 2nd cases. But going backwards, with better players ? That's inexcusable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fear The Spear View Post
    Take a look around the league. There is an incredibly consistent pattern.
    Virtually all the best coaches, and the teams with the best records, have coaches who were "groomed" into the position, as opposed to re-tread coaches, like Shanahan, whose game has passed their time.
    __________________________________________________ _________________________
    FIRST, here's a list of what I consider "young coaches" who were "groomed" into their position, as opposed to being recycled as an older coach, and how they're doing. The main criteria here in the first list is that they are still at their original team that made them head coach :
    __________________________________________________ _________________________
    The TWO young Harbaugh brothers. Their 49ers and Ravens are 10-2 and 9-3 (AND one of those losses shouldn't count in my stats, cuz it was against the other brother, LOL)
    Sean Payton : Super Bowl Champ AND currently 9-3
    Mike Tomlin : Super Bowl Champ AND currently 9-3
    Mike McCarthy : Not real young, but clearly groomed into the position as he's still with his first head-coaching gig, and his record for the last 2 seasons speaks for itself.
    Marvin Lewis : (maybe not so young anymore, but a late bloomer, and definitely a "groomer" as opposed to a "re-tread") and he's 7-5
    Jason Garrett : First place in the division at 7-5
    Hue Jackson : In his first year, taking over the most embarrassing, disastrous team in the league, has his team at 7-5, after losing his starting QB.
    Jim Schwartz : Lions are a brand new team, capable of beating anyone at 7-5
    Mike Smith : His Falcons have been competitive and atop or near the top of the division his whole tenure - currently 7-5
    Gary Kubiak : Again, a coach still with his first team, has his Texans at 9-3
    Lovie Smith : Took his team to the Super Bowl, and still has them in playoff contention at 7-5
    Rex Ryan : 2 AFC Championships, and currently 7-5 in playoff contention.
    Ken Whisenhunt : Not currently a good team, but he DID take his team to the Super Bowl in his 1st or 2nd year.

    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    NOW, let's look at the "re-treads". Guys who have bounced around to at least 2 different teams, and are currently failing.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    Shanahan : In his first 2 seasons, he's 10-18 (Enough said)
    Chan Gailey : He sucked as a head coach prior to the Bills, and their initial fast start was a fluke just like our 3-1 start was, as he's now he's at 5-7
    Norv Turner : Norv. Enough said.
    Pete Carroll : Surely a re-tread. He was a clearly a failure in his first stint in the NFL before being demoted to the college ranks at USC, and is no better this time around in the league, currently 5-7.
    Tom Coughlin : Game has clearly passed by Old Tom, in his 2nd gig. (yea, he barely won a SB, but he's done. Never will be effective again. Maybe fired after this year.) If he manages another HC job after the Giants, he'll surely be a re-tread failure just like former SB winner Shanahan.
    (Can we include Gibbs II here, even tho he's gone, just to prove a point, that the game passed him by, the 2nd time around ? )

    Now, before you object, of course there are exceptions to the rule.
    But number one, they are rare. And the exceeding amount here proves my point. SECONDLY, of all the young coaches that are doing poorly right now, pretty much all of them have only been a HC for a short time, so they probably just need time. (i.e. Ron Rivera, Pat Shurmur, Mel Tucker, etc)

    Also, not only notice the amazing pattern of young, groomed coaches doing better than the re-treads. But also notice there are much more of them. It's as if teams are realizing, (except for teams like us) that you have find that young guy with potential, not the used car, with too much mileage on it, that's ready to retire. We've taken the same approach with coaches that we have with players in the past, buy trying to buy a Super Bowl, with players who are past their prime, even tho they may have been a big-name at one time. The game has passed them by.

    Moral of the story. We need to find the next young gem, who is fresh, rapidly growing and in-touch with TODAY'S NFL, AND in touch with TODAY'S YOUNG PLAYERS. A young coach can connect with those young players !! Not a "has-been" coach like Shanny. So, not only are the average player's ages getting younger, so are the HC ages. Except ours, pretty much.
    Where have you been buddy? I made this same statement about a month ago, almost word for word and with all the supporting evidence, and got mocked for it. Everything you said is true, but people don't always like to hear the truth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extreme View Post
    Where have you been buddy?
    In the 5 O'clock club with you.
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