The HC Dan Quinn Discussion Thread

[SkinsLife]

So then Rivera was not loved by his players?

They did in 2022

 

[skinsinparadise]

I posted an article about the Packers, similar idea about playing in the preseason helps prevent injuries.

Even if the truth is somewhere in between, reporters who cover this team described Quinn's camp last year was absurdly light -- would make camp Jay come off like a Navy Seal bootcamp.

And the reports from the NE reporters that Washington got their asses kicked in practice -- and then those same reporters said not the case with NE with their other joint practice -- coupled with them getting their asses kicked thoughout preseason -- was a red flag.

If it was just one thing and not the other fine. I know teams have bad preseason games and go on to do well. But there reallly wasn't a report of anything that felt that promising in the summer aside from wow these CBs completely locked down the WR corp including even the UDFA Cbs. I saw it myself when I went to camp. Though those same CBs got their asses kicked in the joint practices and preseason.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

I posted an article about the Packers, similar idea about playing in the preseason helps prevent injuries.

Even if the truth is somewhere in between, reporters who cover this team described Quinn's camp last year was absurdly light -- would make camp Jay come off like a Navy Seal bootcamp.

And the reports from the NE reporters that Washington got their asses kicked in practice -- and then those same reporters said not the case with NE with their other joint practice -- coupled with them getting their asses kicked thoughout preseason -- was a red flag.

If it was just one thing and not the other fine. I know teams have bad preseason games and go on to do well. But there reallly wasn't a report of anything that felt that promising in the summer aside from wow these CBs completely locked down the WR corp including even the UDFA Cbs. I saw it myself when I went to camp. Though those same CBs got their asses kicked in the joint practices and preseason.

I have absolutely no comment whatsoever on whether Troy is right or wrong.

I think there is something to the fact you've got to hit folks to get used to hitting folks, and if you're not used to it, it's easier to get hurt. But that's not the point.

My point is, that's probably really easy for Troy to say given I doubt he was hit once in any training camp he ever attended from college through his HOF career.

 

[Boone]

As far as Quinn's approach to preseason (and the 'does a lack of intensity/participation in preseason physical contact lead to more injuries' question), I would love to see data. I think mostly that debate is driven by conjecture and assumption. Just as my baseline, I have simpler explanations for some of these issues. We may have gotten our 'asses kicked' by New England in joint practices because our roster is weak, or because the coaches didn't put much emphasis on the importance of going hard in those events. Drawing a straight line from that to 'we will have more injuries' is an extreme stretch imho. Having a career in the medical field, the idea that 'not practicing' or 'not playing in preseason games' makes one more prone to injury when real bullets are flying - there's not a lot of evidence to reach that conclusion that I've seen and it's at best an 'it depends' scenario. I'll relate it to the idea I have heard voiced here a lot, that if we only had a better strength and conditioning program, we would not experience a season full of injuries. There's just no basis for that sweeping belief - and the reason there isn't is because the NFL game is inherently a very violent one. I don't care how 'in shape' you are, if you collide with another player at high speed, there is a possibility of traumatic injury. Joints only bend in one direction normally. Tendons and ligaments can tolerate certain degrees of pressure and stretch before they fail. Bones are only so strong. I'm not arguing that being in shape has no influence on injuries, but when it comes to traumatic injuries, they are inevitable in a highly violent game and at some level, being in great shape isn't going to prevent the vast majority of them.

I can see the argument when it comes to soft-tissue injuries. If you aren't doing an activity frequently and strenuously and then all of a sudden you are, I think it makes logical sense that you are going to be more prone to soft tissue injuries, muscle pulls (like hammies), and even possible sprains/ligament tears. It probably has no impact on things like bone breaks, concussions, major muscle injuries like labrum tears. Those injuries happen because of extreme events, collisions with powerful forces, violent hits and you may actually be at a higher risk of those kinds of injuries the more minutes you are out there (whether in preseason or in real games). So 'it depends' is probably right.

I think Quinn (since this is the Dan Quinn thread and we are trying hard to go off topic) probably will do less bubble-wrapping of starters going forward because that strategy has not worked very well for him and I fully support abandoning that approach.

 

[Conn]

Yeah. I reflexively agree with the narrative about soft training camp with old roster > few starters playing in preseason > slow start + more injuries. Because sometimes it feels good, evidence be damned. (And it could correlate)

But I did post a tweet (since deleted so the link was broken) questioning whether this was mainly anecdotal, mainly because of these other opposed anecdotal experiences:

The Bears + Lions (with Ben Johnson continuing the Dan Campbell culture of difficult training camp + starters playing a decent amount in preseason) were two of those most injured teams last year in terms of players + snaps lost, they just have better depth than us and they lucked out that their losses weren’t to their most key players. Many of ours were (and we have less key players, which hurts also), with our QB being the most glaring and punishing example.

 

[skinsinparadise]

Yeah. I reflexively agree with the narrative about soft training camp with old roster > few starters playing in preseason > slow start + more injuries. Because sometimes it feels good, evidence be damned. (And it could correlate)

But I did post a tweet (since deleted so the link was broken) questioning whether this was mainly anecdotal, mainly because of these other opposed anecdotal experiences:

The Bears + Lions (with Ben Johnson continuing the Dan Campbell culture of difficult training camp + starters playing a decent amount in preseason) were two of those most injured teams last year in terms of players + snaps lost, they just have better depth than us and they lucked out that their losses weren’t to their most key players. Many of ours were (and we have less key players, which hurts also), with our QB being the most glaring and punishing example.

I can see the arguments either way on the injury front. And also think if you have a great roster it probably doesn't matter what you do in camp.

I suspect but don't know, there is a downside to going extremes either way. Quinn seemed to take it to the extreme and brush off everything that didn't look hot in the summer because hey if you aren't going full speed they shouldn't judge things as if they are going full speed. In short, I think the Quinn's half speed camp last summer made it difficult to gauge how ready they were. You get your asses kicked in preseason games or in the joint practice -- heck its our backups and they aren't playing camp full speed so why judge it against a hard nosed Vrabel team that's going full out, etc.

It would be like one of my kids going half speed through midterms and telling me yeah I didn't do hot but I am pacing myself for the finals later on so you can't judge me on the midterms, watch what happens when I turn it on later.

 

[Conn]

I can see the arguments either way on the injury front. And also think if you have a great roster it probably doesn't matter what you do in camp.

I suspect but don't know, there is a downside to going extremes either way. Quinn seemed to take it to the extreme and brush off everything that didn't look hot in the summer because hey if you aren't going full speed they shouldn't judge things as if they are going full speed. In short, I think the Quinn's half speed camp last summer made it difficult to gauge how ready they were. You get your asses kicked in preseason games or in the joint practice -- heck its our backups and they aren't playing camp full speed so why judge it against a hard nosed Vrabel team that's going full out, etc.

It would be like one of my kids going half speed through midterms and telling me yeah I didn't do hot but I am pacing myself for the finals later on so you can't judge me on the midterms, watch what happens when I turn it on later.

Yeah. And in that tweet, maybe Byard is right. But they did that and were also one of the most injured teams last year. So who knows. More prepared for sure, though. We can’t have another slow start, everything else aside. That could spell doom for Quinn if we get into a death spiral early and the vibes get rancid. I don’t expect it

 

[method man]

Yeah. And in that tweet, maybe Byard is right. But they did that and were also one of the most injured teams last year. So who knows. More prepared for sure, though. We can’t have another slow start, everything else aside. That could spell doom for Quinn if we get into a death spiral early and the vibes get rancid. I don’t expect it

The depth we have now that we didn’t have last year allows us to push hard in camp

 

[Dlts20]

 

[skinzplay]

 

[burgold]

I wonder if last year's training camp was so light because Quinn looked at his roster and decided they were a really vet group who didn't need the basic reps and they were a really old group who would break down if he pushed them too hard. If so, with this younger roster, we should see a tougher training camp.

In any case, count me among those who dislike the idea of soft training camps and holding all starters out of preseason games. Simulating live reps is important.

 

[KDawg]

There is no such thing as guys who don’t need reps. Older guys need less, but they need the intense reps to get back into “football shape” and get their timing back on track.

The balance with old guys is mixing the intensity with keeping them healthy.

Our problem was we had a ton of old dudes and had to load manage everyone. (Not literally).

 

[Chris]

Call me crazy but I’d prefer not to have a bunch of key players that need regular and sometimes multiple days of practice off per week.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

There is no such thing as guys who don’t need reps. Older guys need less, but they need the intense reps to get back into “football shape” and get their timing back on track.

The balance with old guys is mixing the intensity with keeping them healthy.

Our problem was we had a ton of old dudes and had to load manage everyone. (Not literally).

To “yes and” your point, from Jan/Feb to September is 8 months.

8 months without playing a meaningful game.

Thats a REALLY long time.

Take whatever you are really good at, don’t do it for 8 months, and your skills are going to diminish. It doesn’t matter what it is. Typing, playing sudoku, coding, writing, analyzing, whatever. Even riding a bike.

You won’t forget how to do it. But you won’t be as good at it or confident after 8 months off.

Which is why the off season program and training camp is so essential. And reps are absolutely critical in any way you can get them.

Brady and Manning both were practice freaks. They wanted every rep they could get. Why? They felt they needed them. They are GOAT players. When in doubt copy the GOATs.

I was totally grumpy with Club Jay.

Quinn got my ire last year.

It’s why I believe not only in intense training camps but also playing some in preseason.

I’m not suggesting they need to go full Junction Boys level of ridiculousness. But you gotta play the game a little bit.

 

[Riggo44]

I don't see too many people pining for Vrabel any more...

 

[DWinzit]

DQ has his name all over the Styles pick. Hope Styles lives up to expectations this year. He will have a lot to learn and implement with great expectations on his shoulders.

 

[Riggo44]

DQ has his name all over the Styles pick. Hope Styles lives up to expectations this year. He will have a lot to learn and implement with great expectations on his shoulders.

Would you call him a...project? 🤣

 

[DWinzit]

Would you call him a...project? 🤣

Of course not, but is he plug and play to run the D, I don't know for sure. He is super athletic, smart ....but has a lot to learn

 

[Riggo44]

Of course not, but is he plug and play to run the D, I don't know for sure. He is super athletic, smart ....but has a lot to learn

All rookies have a lot to learn, though.

 

[SkinsNumberOne]

Styles is a converted safety. I am sure you knew that. Yes he has more to learn and grow than other picks. It is in most analyses of him; not under debate. Also not under debate is the prevailing thinking that he could be special.

I agree with DWinzit - has DQ all over and we will need him. The middle of the field was often our biggest liability last year.