Commanders Coffee #2

[Canadian Hog]

Greetings all,

We are back with the 2nd installment of BGO "Commanders Coffee." For this week's topic, let's focus on Antonio Gibson. Through his first two seasons, Gibson has been productive and effective from a numbers standpoint. He amassed 11 TDs as a rookie, and eclipsed 1000 yards rushing a season ago. Pretty decent for a guy making a transition towards becoming a full time RB. That all said, the fumbling problem was a major issue last season. In fact, Antonio's propensity to cough up the football in the most inopportune of times was a major factor in a couple of our losses in '21. Some might go as far as saying it was the difference between squeezing into the playoffs and not. Unfortunately, Gibson's performance in our first preseason game gave us even more cause for concern, as he had another case of fumble-itis right out of the gate vs. the Panthers.

As a discussion point, I want to know where you stand with Antonio? Should we put any stock into what happened Sunday? Should he lose his job to Brian Robinson? Should we hold steady and give him a chance to entrench himself as our undisputed starter?

Discuss and share your thoughts!

 

[Boone]

I don't blame fans who are tired of Gibson's fumbling issues and even some who want to move on. I don't believe Gibson fumbled at all his rookie season. Last year as we all know was a different story. I'm not sure having another fumble in the first preseason game means much though.

I remember that Mark Rypien had a terrible problem early on with fumbling. You laid a hand on Rypien and the ball was coming out. Fortunately they coached him out of that tendency and we all know how that worked out.

It's pretty clear that, as a former WR, Gibson simply sets himself up for fumbling by carrying the ball in one hand (often extended away from his body). If he wants to continue to be an NFL running back, hybrid-version or not, his coaches will have to get him to consistently CARRY the ball like a RB, tucked into his body and secured with both hands whenever possible.

Antonio Gibson WAS our rushing attack the past 2 seasons. He played hurt a lot of that time because there really wasn't a physical rusher to consistently spell him and the only real guy who could effectively spell him (JD McKissic) was himself hurt a lot of the time. He is still a very talented, valuable asset. Some will argue we should immediately award the rookie, old whats-his-name, the starting role and keep Gibson on the bench. That may happen, but I'm not doing it on the basis of one preseason game.

The NFL is a high pressure business. Perform or you won't be around for long. So we'll see how Gibson responds to this challenge. He has to know that if the rookie continues to excel, his days could be numbered.

 

[Chris]

I feel bad for the kid but you just can’t put the ball on the ground with the propensity that he does. Especially with the entire off-season to address the issue. NFL defenses are killer sharks and he has become their chum in the water.

 

[Boone]

I hear you. I guess the question becomes, which fumble is it that is 'the last straw' and gets you benched? Did we just witness that?

I mean, it's a preseason game. I get that it's just the latest in a series of fumbles, but...

My question is - where is the coaching? I know ultimately the player has to own responsibility for his play and for crucial mistakes. But are you telling me that a pro coaching staff cannot coach a player up on such a critical part of their job. I mean, if I'm the Washington RBs coach, Gibson is being coached to never take both hands off the ball - ever - until he can demonstrate good ball security. I'd have him out there rushing like Elaine Benes and Raquel Welch

 

[Boone]

So, setting aside the 'you just can't keep putting the football on the ground...' argument (which I happen to agree with), wanted to put some stats up to add some context to this debate.

Here are Antonio Gibson's 2 year career stats:
2,373 offensive yds
4.7 yds/touch
4.3 yds/carry
21 TDs
7 fumbles

I guess my point would be - 7 fumbles is bad. That was the most by any NFL RB in 2021. But those other numbers are pretty impressive. Reduce/eliminate the fumbles and that's a lot of production...

On the other hand...

 

[Chris]

Recency matters.

Larry Brown had a fumbling problem early in his career and Lombardi made him carry a ball around with him everywhere. Larry learned. Tiki Barber had a fumbling problem until he learned to carry the ball high and tight. Problem solved. AG reportedly worked on it during the off season, using a weighted ball, etc. No change. I’m pretty certain he now knows that he had better get it fixed post haste. He will get more chances, let’s see how he does from this point forward. No coach is going to give him many more chances.

 

[Boone]

'No change' is where you lose me. It's one fumble. All RBs fumble. Whether or not he can limit them remains to be seen. I do agree time is running short if he can't fix it. And lets be honest, setting aside this latest fumble, if he continues fumbling he is going to be done. That's the way it will be and that's the way it has to be. At some point, all the production in the world can't counter drive-killing, game-losing fumbles. So ultimately I agree with you Chris.

 

[Chris]

I have no doubt that ball security was in the forefront of his mind going into this game, yet… (Maybe that contributed.) To me it’s not one fumble, it’s one more fumble. From a player that knew it was a problem.

He needs to fix it.

 

[SkinsOrlando]

Voted for potential, Chris essentially took my thoughts regarding RB's who struggled early on and got it together. Right now we're in the "if he can fix it." Not that it can't be fixed yet in my mind. I remember watching a documentary or interview with Tiki years ago that aside from the angle he was holding the ball that mentally he was so concerned with fumbling and getting cut that it's all he thought about and it made it worse(kinda like the yips in baseball). Gibson played last year on a busted shin, that's not someone you give up on after 2 years and a position change imo.

 

[Neophyte]

Factor in his receptions and, over the last 2 years, he has a fumble percentage per touch of less than 1. It is half what Adrian Peterson's fumble percentage per touch was.

As long as he maintains his career percentage and not his 2021 percentage, I'm okay.

I voted for "limited touches" but I would have done that fumbles or no fumbles. I'm not sure Gibson is durable enough to be a serious workhorse back. He should get the ball 20 times a game or so, total. Especially now that we have Robinson and McKissic both available.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

I’m somewhere between limiting his touches and he has the potential to be a top back. He needs to be disciplined for his fumbles, but he’s shown a lot of promise. So you don’t just cast him aside. Tiki Barber had fumbling problems and they worked on it and he became a better back. I’m definitely a fan of what I’ve seen from Robinson, but changing to him right now seems like an overreaction. So count me as somewhere between 2 and 3.

 

[MikefromOH]

Doghouse. I said from the time we got an older AP we needed to draft a stud and let Peterson train him. Gibson is now going to fumble much more and it's all mental.

Unless he gets this addressed he will never get better. Rivera needs to understand that and not just "sit him for a series" or whatever lame punishment he has done in the past. He needs to be demoted and eventually moved on from if it doesn't stop.

 

[Canadian Hog]

I personally voted for limiting his touches. I feel that keeping Antonio in the 12-15 touch per game range is the best way to capitalize on his skillset and promote more explosion/big play potential.

That all said, during our most impressive stretch of games a year ago where we won four in a row, interestingly enough, it was Gibson who was the engine that drove our offense and he was an absolute workhorse. He was productive in that stretch and got a really high volume of work. Just something to chew on...

 

[Primus Porcus]

I put 'limit his touches.'


I don't mean we cut him back, but more 'repurpose' his role to more of a hybrid, Chris Thompson type. If he touches the ball 14 times in a game.. I want 6-8 to be receptions. His greatest value is his ability to be dynamic... let him be dynamic. Let Robinson carry the majority of the 'primary back' type carries and use Gibson and Mckissic to create match up issues.

 

[Boone]

I put 'limit his touches.'


I don't mean we cut him back, but more 'repurpose' his role to more of a hybrid, Chris Thompson type. If he touches the ball 14 times in a game.. I want 6-8 to be receptions. His greatest value is his ability to be dynamic... let him be dynamic. Let Robinson carry the majority of the 'primary back' type carries and use Gibson and Mckissic to create match up issues.

The challenge becomes, how many throws can you make to a RB with the WR corps we have? I’m not sure …

 

[Lovin Cousins]

I don't mean we cut him back, but more 'repurpose' his role to more of a hybrid, Chris Thompson type.

Chris Thompson - that's a curious story, to me. He went from being called one of the best 3rd down backs in the league, to quickly disappearing and declining.
I wonder if the reason he excelled at the time, was due to a combination of how Coach Jay used him, along with having Cousins there to throw to him.
Then again, as far as Jay goes, I believe Jay was his OC in JAX for his last season.
And I believe he did all those great things he did, post-injury. So it seems that knee injury wasn't the reason for his quick decline in production.
Was a true good guy. And I had hoped to see more of him.

 

[Chris]

My guess is that CT succumbed to injuries following yet another back injury while playing for Jacksonville. It was actually a miracle that he was able to play in the NFL at all after breaking his back while at FSU and then tearing an ACL after his return from that.

He had the heart of a lion.

 

[Primus Porcus]

The challenge becomes, how many throws can you make to a RB with the WR corps we have? I’m not sure …

BIG time... There's only 1 ball to go around and Gibson is the one who continues to put it on the ground. If his reps get vastly reduced... he has nobody to blame but himself. I LOVE what he brings as a game breaker, but his stock drops way behind those other guys if these fumbles continue... and they always seem to happen between the hashmarks. He's the kind of guy that can take 5 carries and 3 receptions for a total of 100 yards if you use him right.... few people can do that.

 

[Canadian Hog]

Gibson apparently got some time today in practice as a kick returner. I guess there are one of two ways to look at this - 1. He is being demoted and unseated by Robinson. 2. They are thinking of more creative ways to use him to add some big play potential.

At the end of the day, Antonio is a weapon. You aren't going to slam him between the tackles 20 times a game and cause the most damage that way. Get him the ball in space however you see fit and go from there. He might be a player where less ultimately means more value.

 

[Chris]

I think it is more about #2 but accelerated by the fumbles. He is certainly in Rivera’s doghouse and will need to prove he can be trusted.