Where are you on the Wentz trade? (Poll)

[Chris]

I don't feel like we got fleeced. The cost in draft picks is reasonable if that is what it took. My own personal expectation that Wentz would get released outright so we could pick him up for nothing in terms of draft picks or players is likely coloring my view of this move. The thing I keep reminding myself is that if he had been released outright, he was then free to negotiate with anyone and we might not have gotten him then anyway. We have all commented about the desirability of playing in Washington right now and that most players would likely want to go elsewhere. It isn't like we are the only franchise looking for a starting QB and he would have been the top of the available guys if he had hit the open market.

We still have a first and a second both this year and next. That is 4 cheap players and a minimum of 2 of those should be upgrades over guys we have now so should start with the other two getting significant playing time.

Next years 3rd becomes a 2nd if Wentz plays 70% of the offensive snaps this coming season.

 

[Chris]

Twitter poll

This just makes me that much more sure of my position. 😉

 

[Neophyte]

I'm aware, Chris. I'll cross that bridge at 71%.

By that time, I might feel like we fleeced the Colts. Ya know?

 

[Canadian Hog]

Cost - two thirds for Wentz is about right for a middle of the road starter who has started 85 games in his career. When comparing it to what we reportedly offered for Stafford and Wilson, two far superior options, I don't think it was an overpay. Instead, it was reflective of who he is - capable with some flaws that need fixing.

The money obviously was hard to swallow. I think ultimately there are going to be some departures as a result that we won't like, but like other good teams around the league, you have to find a way to replace with cheap labour. Thankfully, we seem to do better at that at places other than quarterback, which is obviously our Achilles heel.

My biggest reservation with the move is Ron numerous times mentioned that first and foremost your QB has to be a leader. Is Carson that? Would he be the first guy he would turn to and identify as being a leader? I mean, Bridgewater isn't an option that will excite anyone, but by all accounts is a respected pro. Hell, even Heinicke was a decent leader and for that reason Ron stuck with him the entire year in '21 over Allen. In that regard, there seemingly appears to be a bit of a disconnect for the Wentz acquisition. That is where I worry that you know who has his finger in the cake again.

For these reasons, I am somewhere between ask me in a year and hate it. That all said, not knowing any better, I will blindly hope in 2022 for better or worse. Whether I want to admit it or not, I am trapped.

 

[SirClintonPortis]

I agree with a lot of this - but.. firstly, let’s not cherry pick bonehead plays as if that tells the story. All QBs have them. No stats don’t tell everything, but again, Wentz either generally makes good decisions (hence league lowest INT rate) or he’s the luckiest MFer in NFL history. Now - In what SPOTs he makes bad decisions is a valid discussion and that may be where the Cousins comparisons are more valid.

As far as who may have been pursuing him, we don’t know. But again, it only takes 1 other team to have a bidding war. I’ve already said you have to be willing to walk away. If there wasn’t another bidder involved, we got gouged and abused. I am not yet downtrodden enough to assume we just offered all that up as a panic move. It’s possible, I just think it’s probably more likely it’s because if they wanted him, they had to or another offer would prevail.

He makes boneheaded plays because of mindset and not reading the field. Incompletions that do not get logged as interceptions abound in particular with Wentz. Stats log events. They don't log the video with the event. Wentz will not play cerebrally. He's a Patrick Mahomes parody with arrested development. At least Mahomes tried to take the easy plays during last season. Wentz still hasn't despite five years of systemic stability and coaching in the WCO tree.

All teams with a bona fide franchise qb can be eliminated. All teams with tied to a rookie than doesn't outright suck can be eliminated. Division rivals of the Colts are not candidates even if interested. The entire AFC except Pittsburgh can be deemed not pursuing Wentz for one of those three statuses. Pittsburgh can be eliminated because they know how to draft and they've never traded for a starter after Bradshaw. To Pittsburgh, pissing draft picks away could very well be throwing away the next Antonio Brown.

This move isn't a football move. It's Snyder basically giving financial and football operations relief to Indy in the form of free cap space and draft picks. A bailout.

 

[Boone]

There are other QB needy teams - which can’t be eliminated His career completion rate is fine, at worst average for an NFL QB - so he doesn’t have a huge issue with accuracy any more than he does with turning the ball over. Again - in the spotlight with pressure on, maybe he looks a lot worse, which would be a problem. Stats do not always tell the whole story. But if you want to know if a guy over his career is reckless - look at his INTs and fumbles. If you want to see if he’s an accurate passer, look at his completion %. That is the data. It’s not the ONLY data, but it tells a large portion of the story.

 

[Boone]

Cost - two thirds for Wentz is about right for a middle of the road starter who has started 85 games in his career. When comparing it to what we reportedly offered for Stafford and Wilson, two far superior options, I don't think it was an overpay. Instead, it was reflective of who he is - capable with some flaws that need fixing.

The money obviously was hard to swallow. I think ultimately there are going to be some departures as a result that we won't like, but like other good teams around the league, you have to find a way to replace with cheap labour. Thankfully, we seem to do better at that at places other than quarterback, which is obviously our Achilles heel.

My biggest reservation with the move is Ron numerous times mentioned that first and foremost your QB has to be a leader. Is Carson that? Would he be the first guy he would turn to and identify as being a leader? I mean, Bridgewater isn't an option that will excite anyone, but by all accounts is a respected pro. Hell, even Heinicke was a decent leader and for that reason Ron stuck with him the entire year in '21 over Allen. In that regard, there seemingly appears to be a bit of a disconnect for the Wentz acquisition. That is where I worry that you know who has his finger in the cake again.

For these reasons, I am somewhere between ask me in a year and hate it. That all said, not knowing any better, I will blindly hope in 2022 for better or worse. Whether I want to admit it or not, I am trapped.

Yeah - at a bare minimum Wentz’s rep would appear to clash with Rivera’s comments. I would really love to hear from more of Wentz’s former teammates and position coaches. I always hear the caveat even from people pushing the ‘he’s uncoachable and not a leader’ narrative ‘but he’s not a bad guy’. That also seems inconsistent to me. You don’t have to be Tim Tebow. There are more than a couple introverted QBs in the NFL. There are plenty of cocky and stubborn QBs in the NFL, many of them very successful (you guys think Aaron Rodgers is universally loved by his teammates and coaches? I don’t).

I wonder who Rivera and Scott Turner have talked to about Wentz, because there’s no way they did this if all they heard was ‘he’s not a leader, his teammates hate him, and he’s impervious to coaching’. There’s got to be a counter argument to that because they are not stupid coaches.

One big plus is you’ve got some leadership already on this team. So even if Wentz is not head cheerleader, it may be okay.

 

[Chris]

For any of you who have HBO and the inclination to watch…

I just watched the first and last episode of Hard Knocks In Season: Colts

IMO-

Wentz was not disliked by coaches or players and he exhibited good enough leadership skills.

There is no way Reich pushed to get rid of Wentz. Just no way.

Irsay is an asshat.

 

[Boone]

Thanks = I will check that out. I literally have not seen any first hand player complaints. I have seen some positive ones.

 

[Bulldog]

Here were the other choices after the Hail Mary for Wilson failed:

Garoppolo coming off surgery on his throwing shoulder

Trubisky who has never proven anything except he can watch Josh Allen win games in Buffalo.

Cam Newton whose body started to break down several years ago.

And two draft prospects at quarterback in a weak class that reminds me of 1994 when Heath Shuler and Trent Dilfer were both taken in the first 10 picks and traded within a few years of being selected.

So Wentz is a make the best of a tough situation type of decision.

He has been mediocre at times but has also showed top shelf talent as well.

For one year commitment the trade is relatively low risk.

Of course it would be nice to see this team go into a draft like 2021 and make the major move in a year where there a multiple good talents available.

 

[Boone]

If one likes one of the college QBs in the draft, I think the best option would've been ride with what we have on the vet front, and do your best (including moving up) to draft the guy you like in the draft.

Rivera said a few weeks ago that they want vet, vet, rookie - which seems to indicate they do intend to draft a guy this year. Whether that's best available at pick 11, or some project QB later - hard to know.

 

[Primus Porcus]

If one likes one of the college QBs in the draft, I think the best option would've been ride with what we have on the vet front, and do your best (including moving up) to draft the guy you like in the draft.

Rivera said a few weeks ago that they want vet, vet, rookie - which seems to indicate they do intend to draft a guy this year. Whether that's best available at pick 11, or some project QB later - hard to know.

This draft is very top heavy when it comes to QBs. Strong and Ridder are thought to be 2nd round picks, then there is about 100 miles before you find the next 'tier' of QBs that are consider late round fliers... at least that's how i've seen it, and heard it reported.

This makes me believe they're going to roll the dice and if Ridder or Strong is there at 47 they'll jump. It's enough of an investment to get a possible long term talent, but it's not enough that there will be severe pressure on Wentz to perform. If Wentz is able to play well enough to make it obvious that the kid can just keep himself comfortable on the bench.. .well we'll be winning enough games in that circumstance that few people should / will actually care about the 'lost pick' in the 2nd round. I think taking a guy at 11, it muddies the waters a bit and you start to seriously question why you even make the trade in the first place. This is also where I wonder if we dont trade out of 11 and try to get a decent return on that pick. Using the 2nd round pick on a QB, and not currently having a 3rd round pick, is going to limit the chances of those 'draft finds' we all love so much, especially when we look at the 'needs' (not gaping holes, but still needs) of the team like MLB and RG. In this scenario, it's likely we get WR / MLB / OG (not really my preference) in the first round, but going WR / QB, then waiting til the 4th to get back on the clock could feel like an absolute eternity with the depths of this draft clicking away... Trading back out of 11 back to say... 20 with Pittsburgh and getting a 2nd / 3rd or even a 1 next year could change the dynamic of it.

 

[Boone]

I am very, very curious to get the vibe coming from Carson Wentz when free agency opens. I think it's super important that he embrace the move enthusiastically (even if he's not sure internally), ignore the negative fan and media reaction, and let his latest trade put a major chip on his shoulder to show that he's not the ego-centric poor leader he's painted to be, and that he can be a very good QB still. His initial reaction in getting announced is going to be important and something to watch.

 

[Boone]

Mark was talking about Pickett recently. I wonder if that's not the guy Rivera and friends are looking hard at and might make a move to go get? Maybe I should post this in the QB thread?

 

[Primus Porcus]

I am very, very curious to get the vibe coming from Carson Wentz when free agency opens. I think it's super important that he embrace the move enthusiastically (even if he's not sure internally), ignore the negative fan and media reaction, and let his latest trade put a major chip on his shoulder to show that he's not the ego-centric poor leader he's painted to be, and that he can be a very good QB still. His initial reaction in getting announced is going to be important and something to watch.

The vibe around Wentz has shifted quite a bit. I'm hearing a lot more of an open minded response than before (at least on local radio and on Twitter), or it at least 'feels' that way. I think there was a major backlash initially because people had their hopes up for 'something greater' and the move was going to be criticized heavily because of that. Had we not been spoon fed an offseason where Aaron Rodgers was supposedly available, or Russell Wilson got moved, a botched name change reveal, and being in the thick of an absolute firestorm around Snyder and sexual harassment, the initial moved would have been viewed much differently. I think in time, it will continue to soften to the point where we get to see the arm in training camp videos, as well as pre-season games and the intrigue will be exponential. Drafting a legit WR weapon at 11 will only accelerate that process. Bring back McKissic, sign McLaurin to an extension, and people will likely begin to laud the move.

 

[Boone]

Same vibe I'm getting. And a lot of the propaganda (which frankly is just inaccurate) is getting refuted with actual data/stats. Wentz, at his worst, is the best QB we've had here since Cousins. I don't think it's debateable.

 

[Henry]

For one year commitment the trade is relatively low risk.

Two 3rds or a 2nd and a 3rd is a VERY high price for a one-year commitment. That's the sort of thinking that when fans say "things are different now" ... that's the sort of thing we wouldn't do.

 

[Boone]

Two 3rds or a 2nd and a 3rd is a VERY high price for a one-year commitment. That's the sort of thinking that when fans say "things are different now" ... that's the sort of thing we wouldn't do.

Henry - I agree. But it's a 1 year escape clause. If he plays well, it's a 3 year contract. I know you don't think that's possible, I'm just pointing it out...

 

[Henry]

The vibe has changed because it is what it is. Fans have no choice but to look at this in the best possible light. It's what makes us fans.

My initial reaction was confusion, dread and dismay. As I've seen the immediate ramifications come to bear, such as our cap space disappearing and talks with Landon Collins breaking down ... it just seems worse.

But then again, I'm me so ...

 

[Boone]

They were always going to ask Collins to take a paycut and he was always going to say 'no thanks'. Had zero to do with the Wentz acquisition. Yeah - you're right that it's definitely moved to 'well, we may as well look at the bright side now that he's our QB'.

As far as the cost - whether it was insanely high or reasonable can't be determined until we see how it works out. It could easily be either. Anyone who is highly dubious certainly has plenty of rationale to view it that way. The stats probably support the other argument.