Obama aims to ax moon mission

I’m sure there are but that wasn’t what he said. The stupid part of the comment was the make them feel good part. In its own way, it kind of derogatory toward Muslims. It’s like, “You should really good about your contribution to math and science. You did a lot a thousand years ago and you’re just in a little slump right now. But you are trying really, really hard.”

I’m really looking forward to the time when NASA reaches out to Druids and makes them feel good about their accomplishments.

Yes that was what he said. Sure, the line Fox is hi-lighting was kind of a dopey thing to say, but it was one sentence out of a twenty minute interview, directed at a specific audience. And I don't agree with those who suggest that that line constitutes the entirety, or even the central focus of our current President's ambitions for our space program.

That's equally dopey, if not moreso.
 
No worries. He's getting ready to go on vacation....................again
 
Even though I don’t agree with his politics, I like Stewart. His show is very funny.

But notice that in the clip they cut the Bolden quote before he said “to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science ... and math and engineering,"

That’s the phrase that makes the whole policy stupid and Stewart had to cut it because then the “Republicans as hypocrites” clips wouldn’t fit. He could have just as easily included the entire quote and then used it to make fun of the whole “self-esteem education” movement or the fact that the middle east Muslim world has fallen behind in science and technology simply by pointing out how long ago their historical accomplishments were. But Stewart isn’t wired that way, so he had to cut the quote where he did.

Now there is nothing wrong with reaching out to other nations, including Muslim nations. But you don’t reach out to make them feel good about their (non) accomplishments. You reach out to them to accomplish something which was exactly what Regan was trying to do. Unfortunately, the Muslim Middle East has nothing to bring to the table in this area.

Obama would help the Middle East Muslim world more by using his bully pulpit to keep pointing out that in some (not all) countries, the combination of their anti-modern culture combined with the lack of individual freedom under brutal dictatorships is causing them to fall further and further behind and limiting the opportunities for their youth. The fact is, the only real self-esteem comes from your own accomplishments and can’t be bestowed on you by a parent, teacher, boss, coach or even the head of NASA telling you how special you are.

But, I’m no longer disappointed by Obama. I used to have high hopes for him but while I expect all politicians to lie, it was like he turned a switch the minute he got into office. It’s not just his policies which are bad enough but his tone has turned 180 degrees from his campaign tone. That has turned off a lot of Republicans and conservative independents that in the beginning had a lot of good will toward him.
I meant to address this point earlier when I talked about the use of soft power vs. hard power but I had rambled on enough already by that time. :)

In any event, this is where you're mistaken. One has to talk to others in a language they understand. Having had a lot of Muslim friends from all over the world for many years, I feel confident in saying that Muslims in general, and M.E.sterners in particular have a much more accute sense of history than we as Americans do. So for example if you talk to Iranians, they tend to have a great deal of pride in their Persian past, as well as their Islamic past and will talk of it frequently as a point of pride and the subjugation under western colonial powers as a source of shame and vindictiveness...even now, after all these years/centuries. Ditto that for the Turks, Arabs, N. Africans, etc.

Therefore, in effect saying the following to the M.E. and Muslim world does in fact make good sense. "Look, we understand what you've contributed to the history of science. How about you start taking the steps on the road that really will return you to a similar level of prominance instead of blowing up innocent people, which will not do so."

If throwing them a bone or two this way in the space program, among others, starts some in the Muslim/M.E. world to start questioning the narrative I mentioned earlier, isn't it worth it? After all, the Arabs have been intent on regaining past glory through the use of socialism, Pan Arabism, and other movements. None of them have delivered. As with these other movements, eventually they'll realize that Islamic fundamentalism won't either. When that happens, having a counter narrative for them to fall back to that allows them to look inward for the source of some/most of their problems rather than outward will be a good thing for us...and them. Ultimately, I don't think that's any different than the way we used soft power to confront the Soviets during the cold war. Again, it's about using a combination of approaches.

IMHO, this view of and focus on past glory by the Jihadists is in many ways the key to unraveling the narrative that provides popular support for and drives the fundie agenda. Part of that narrative is that they want to regain the past glory of the Islamic Empire. The problem with their line of reasoning is that if one truly examines political and religious Islam as practiced during that era, it was much more tolerant than what the Islamofascists are now pushing, i.e. Wahhabism. Moreover, in most cases much of their ideology and terrorist tactics are not supported by Islamic jurisprudence.

Unfortunately, there's another structural problem that makes the use of either hard or soft U.S. power problematic with the M.E, the way it was carved up in the post colonial era. In many cases, tribes and ethnic groups were split up for political or economic reasons of the west resulting in countries that are inherently unstable. Iraq with its mixture off Shia, Sunni and Kurds is a good example. So if we encourage the leaders of these countries to be less despotic, then there's a good chance those countries become unstable and spiral out of control. OTOH, if we continue to back dictators, we'll continue to be seen as evil and hypocritcal by the M.E. "street". To that conundrum, I have no answer. :(

Weeelllll, maybe one, but that's for another time and thread. :)
 
I meant to address this point earlier when I talked about the use of soft power vs. hard power but I had rambled on enough already by that time. :)

In any event, this is where you're mistaken. One has to talk to others in a language they understand. Having had a lot of Muslim friends from all over the world for many years, I feel confident in saying that Muslims in general, and M.E.sterners in particular have a much more accute sense of history than we as Americans do. So for example if you talk to Iranians, they tend to have a great deal of pride in their Persian past, as well as their Islamic past and will talk of it frequently as a point of pride and the subjugation under western colonial powers as a source of shame and vindictiveness...even now, after all these years/centuries. Ditto that for the Turks, Arabs, N. Africans, etc.

Therefore, in effect saying the following to the M.E. and Muslim world does in fact make good sense. "Look, we understand what you've contributed to the history of science. How about you start taking the steps on the road that really will return you to a similar level of prominance instead of blowing up innocent people, which will not do so."

If throwing them a bone or two this way in the space program, among others, starts some in the Muslim/M.E. world to start questioning the narrative I mentioned earlier, isn't it worth it? After all, the Arabs have been intent on regaining past glory through the use of socialism, Pan Arabism, and other movements. None of them have delivered. As with these other movements, eventually they'll realize that Islamic fundamentalism won't either. When that happens, having a counter narrative for them to fall back to that allows them to look inward for the source of some/most of their problems rather than outward will be a good thing for us...and them. Ultimately, I don't think that's any different than the way we used soft power to confront the Soviets during the cold war. Again, it's about using a combination of approaches.

IMHO, this view of and focus on past glory by the Jihadists is in many ways the key to unraveling the narrative that provides popular support for and drives the fundie agenda. Part of that narrative is that they want to regain the past glory of the Islamic Empire. The problem with their line of reasoning is that if one truly examines political and religious Islam as practiced during that era, it was much more tolerant than what the Islamofascists are now pushing, i.e. Wahhabism. Moreover, in most cases much of their ideology and terrorist tactics are not supported by Islamic jurisprudence.

Unfortunately, there's another structural problem that makes the use of either hard or soft U.S. power problematic with the M.E, the way it was carved up in the post colonial era. In many cases, tribes and ethnic groups were split up for political or economic reasons of the west resulting in countries that are inherently unstable. Iraq with its mixture off Shia, Sunni and Kurds is a good example. So if we encourage the leaders of these countries to be less despotic, then there's a good chance those countries become unstable and spiral out of control. OTOH, if we continue to back dictators, we'll continue to be seen as evil and hypocritcal by the M.E. "street". To that conundrum, I have no answer. :(

Weeelllll, maybe one, but that's for another time and thread. :)

You're not listening to what is being said...:)....

The argument is not whether giving Muslim cultures their "due" might result in some beneficial return (if their egos and sense of self require that....so be it). The issue is whether that SHOULD BE THE PRIMARY MISSION STATEMENT FOR NASA. The latter is patently ridiculous......and corrupting in a way that boggles the mind.
 
Well, to be fair if you watch the entire interview, Bolden was speaking within the context of expanding international outreach and mutual cooperation to help further projects such as, specifically, the International Space Station. And that NASA has been in the business of working with the international community for over a decade now, since long before Obama was in office.

Of course, Fox conveniently left all that out.

The difference is that Foxnews is not a comedy show.

yes...by all means. we should increase our efforts at space systems collaboration with...say...the Iranians. They, afterall, have demonstarted very recently a renewed interest in propulsion systems that could easily service a space program....:)
 
...well, not a good one anyway. :) The Daily Show, while openly a liberally slanted comedy show, nonetheless does a better job of delivering news than the alleged news channel. That anyone actually thinks of, and tries to pass off Faux News as a legitimate news source is as sad as the numbers of people who do actually use The Daily Show as their primary news source. In spite of that, those Daily Show folks are getting a more balanced view of things than the former group that clings to Faux News.
Posted via BGO Mobile Device

yea...yea...yea...we all get your "scientific" politics.....
 
A lot of people aren't listening to what's being said. For example, immediately after the 'reach out to the muslim world' the interviewer asked him if that meant he was on a diplomatic mission. And he said:

"No. It's not a diplomatic anything. What it is is it's try to expand our outreach so that we get more people who can contribute to the things that we do. The ISS is as great as it is because we have a conglomerate of 15+ nations who have contributed something to that partnership that has made it what it is today."

Notice this clarification puts his statement in much better context. He's speaking to a Muslim audience, so he's obviously tailoring his statements to them. And even so, he makes it clear this isn't about 'feeling good.' It's about finding more of those in the international community who can help us do what we want to do.

I find it highly amusing that some of you would take The Daily Show to task for only using one line of his statement but not Foxnews for only using two of them.

I think Sarge has the right idea. Just move on and find something else to bash. This is silly.
 
yes...by all means. we should increase our efforts at space systems collaboration with...say...the Iranians. They, afterall, have demonstarted very recently a renewed interest in propulsion systems that could easily service a space program....:)

That's the second time someone has put words in Bolden's mouth. He didn't say Iran. He said 'the Muslim world.'

So I have to go back to the question I asked earlier in this thread:

Are you suggesting there are no Muslims anywhere capable of contributing to an international space effort?
 
I love the fact that Jon Stewart (the guy from MTV) is now considered a news person. I wonder if people realize that his STAFF writes all of his opinions and he is just the face and voice delivering it.

I was the one that posted his bit and I was the one that claimed his is a comedy show.

What I love is the fact that Foxnews apparently gets a pass for using the same cut and paste jobs that a comedy show like The Daily Show uses.
 
Nobody says Fox News gets a pass but at least they arent trying to cover up the fact that a dude from MTV is now giving out the news. They may be comedians too but its not covered up like Stewart is.

Covered up? The Daily Show is on the Comedy Central network (a network devoted to comedy shows), and makes no effort to hide the fact that it is indeed comedy. Its self-description is a "fake news show."

And Jon Stewart does a lot of his own writing and interviewing I'm pretty sure, but I'm not 100% sure of that. The writers do some of the monologue stuff and the scripts for the other cast members, but Stewart does his own thing.
 
Yes, I know what you said, I just didn't know what you meant by that. Clearly they aren't the ones covering anything up, so who is?
 
That's the second time someone has put words in Bolden's mouth. He didn't say Iran. He said 'the Muslim world.'

So I have to go back to the question I asked earlier in this thread:

Are you suggesting there are no Muslims anywhere capable of contributing to an international space effort?

henry...who said anything about Bolden mentioning the Iranians? It's called sarcasm.

I don't give a dang what the Muslim community can do vis the International Space effort. have at it! Especially if they are willing to help pay for it. I'm all for it if it lessens tacit support for despotic regimes and suicide bombers! I'm sure it figures prominently somewhere in the Koran!

You refuse to focus on the key point folks like me are making: TO MAKE REACHING OUT TO THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY (for whatever dubious gains) THE PRIMARY MISSION STATEMENT FOR NASA IS F'D UP AS HOGAN'S GOAT. AND THAT IS WHAT HE SAID WAS HIS DIRECTION. If it were a tertiary priority to make the self esteem challenged feel good about themselves...all the better.

we'll sidestep the whole profiling/discriminatory aspect of this (what? we shouldn't also be reaching out to Hindus? Asiatics? I'm shocked I tell you! Shocked, shocked, shocked!)
 
Thanks for redirecting us back to the actual subject matter. That prompted me to look at the whole thing all over again from the start.

So forgive me if I'm missing something but from what I can tell, the part about engaging the muslim world isn't in the policy document anywhere. In fact, the words "Muslim" or "Middle East" aren't in it anywhere. Neither do they appear in any of Obama's statements about the program prior to Bolden's gaffe. What Obama does talk about is the typical stuff...upping NASA's budget, inspiring American children, science/math, yada, yada, yada.

So what it looks like to me is an individual (Bolden) who probably just put his foot in his mouth. In looking it up, it appears that's pretty much exactly what happened. So perhaps Obama or one of his aides said something about it, and Bolden threw the comment in, or perhaps he screwed up one of the talking points he was given.

So what I'm left with is a conservative paper that seemingly seized on a gaffe in an effort to make much ado about nothing. After all, did it ever occur to them to do any following up to see if this was actually the administration's policy? Or, was it more fun and beneficial for them to just run with it, regardless? But then conservative publications don't have to worry about readership and site views like liberal publications do, so I guess that couldn't be it after all.

Looks like the Examiner caught "Hussein" trying to give the space program away to them "Mooze-lems". Phew!! Good save guys. :rolleyes:
 
Al, he's on Al Jazeera. What's he going to say? "Well, it's not a big deal or anything, but we thought we'd see what Muslims could do."

Sure Bolden worded his statemet stupidly. But I think that's all he did. I don't think Obama sat down with him and said "for God's sake, man, whatever you do, MAKE MUSLIMS FEEL GOOD!!!"

You want to rake Bolden across the coals for saying something dumb. Fine. Have at it. The guy's not a politician.

I'm no Obama apologist. Hell earlier in this very thread I was disagreeing with him. But I think this is silly.
 
Al, he's on Al Jazeera. What's he going to say? "Well, it's not a big deal or anything, but we thought we'd see what Muslims could do."

Sure Bolden worded his statemet stupidly. But I think that's all he did. I don't think Obama sat down with him and said "for God's sake, man, whatever you do, MAKE MUSLIMS FEEL GOOD!!!"

You want to rake Bolden across the coals for saying something dumb. Fine. Have at it. The guy's not a politician.

I'm no Obama apologist. Hell earlier in this very thread I was disagreeing with him. But I think this is silly.

H..I know that.

The director said what he said. in the grand scheme of things...I don't even really care. Just wanted to point out a priorities problem.

My problems with Mr Obama run deeper. He masked...to borrow a euphemism....who he is and what he really stands for. He should thank his lucky stars he happened upon a historically unique juncture in which a magnificent incompetent occupied the oval office allowing basically an unknown without any experinece in anything that really matters to win: any Dem was going to win. we are all...especially America's youth...going to pay a price for this lack of attention to detail for years on end.
 
H..I know that.

The director said what he said. in the grand scheme of things...I don't even really care. Just wanted to point out a priorities problem.

My problems with Mr Obama run deeper. He masked...to borrow a euphemism....who he is and what he really stands for. He should thank his lucky stars he happened upon a historically unique juncture in which a magnificent incompetent occupied the oval office allowing basically an unknown without any experinece in anything that really matters to win: any Dem was going to win. we are all...especially America's youth...going to pay a price for this lack of attention to detail for years on end.
Wow, thanks for summing that up for us. So how's that working out for "President" Hillary? After all, she was the one with all the experience, running a campaign and at the highest levels of government. She was the one with all the big contributors, political insiders and most importantly, the Clinton machine on her side. She was seen as so much a frontrunner that a year or more prior to the election, I remember reading an article in which she and McCain were all but crowned as the nominees of their respective parties. Unfortunately for them, Obama hired a much more competent staff to run his campaign and mostly stayed away from the silly mistakes, like going broke among others, that McCain and Hillary made.

I'm sorry but contrary to your view of things, Obama actually ran and won the best and most effective campaign. Your view is as inaccurate as it is condescending.

And while you're at it, why don't you just come out and say exactly what you mean and stop hiding behind generalisms like "He masked who he is and what he really stands for". Could it be that perhaps you're the one trying to mask what you really stand for?
 
And while you're at it, why don't you just come out and say exactly what you mean and stop hiding behind generalisms like "He masked who he is and what he really stands for". Could it be that perhaps you're the one trying to mask what you really stand for?


Instead of beating around the bush, like you suggest he is doing, why don't you just flat out call him a racist?
:thumbsdown:



Guys, I am sure this is an issue that will likely come up again as long as we are talking politics in this forum, but it looks like this thread has run it's course. I vote this thread be closed!
 
Instead of beating around the bush, like you suggest he is doing, why don't you just flat out call him a racist?
:thumbsdown:
If I felt that I would have just said it. And for the record, I'm very careful in making those kinds of claims. Fansince has said nothing to suggest that. Rather, his rhetoric hints more at an Obama birther or closet Muslim bent. However, I don't want to put words in his mouth. I'd aks that you extend me the same courtesy.
 
Ameteur hour continues

These guys can't get a grip. One minute it's "focusing like a laser on jobs" then it's the economy, then it's the oil spill, then it's NASA

It's like he can't concentrate and certainly doesn't appear to have the ability to focus on details. No wonder NASA doesn't know what's going on

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/07/12/white-house-muslim-outreach-task-nasa/

White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said Monday that NASA Administrator Charles Bolden must have misspoken when he told Al Jazeera last month that one of his top priorities is to reach out to Muslim countries.
 

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