Morris time. For several reasons.

[MikeSr619]

This should be fun.

I disagree with your assessment of the post-Gibbs Redskins. That team got old in 1992 and Casserly gutted it in 1993. There was nothing left by the time Norv took over. We opened that season with John Freisz starting at QB, Reggie Brooks at RB and Desmond Howard as our #1 WR. Thank goodness for Henry Ellard. We had literally no one else of consequence on that offense at all.

On defense, we basically had Ken Harvey, 34 year-old Darrell Green and ... that's it. That team was AWFUL. Reggie Roby was a hell of a punter though. I remember my friends would joke that year that our battle cry that year was 'at least we have good special teams!' We did have good special teams. But man, that was the first year of a full and complete and utter rebuild. That team was terrible.

That said, I'm not going to say Turner was better than Gruden or whatever. Different times, different front office structures. The salary cap was brand new back then and Casserly didn't know what the hell he was doing, but at least we had stability at the top. The front office nowadays is a mess. Ok, maybe this year is the first year it won't be a mess, but we're still feeling the effects of the messiness.

Ok so I'm rambling. I have no dog in this fight. Just had to point out the 94 Redskins were truly awful, and not just because of Turner.

Carry on.

I don't get it...did you think I was going to get mad and argue with you? Is that the "this should be fun" comment? Kind of lost there.

I agree with most everything you said, honestly. But the team went to the wild card (and won) in 92 by going 9-7. And the team may have been gutted but the ones left in place were still Gibbs guys who were very well disciplined. At least more disciplined than what we have here now.

That was my ONLY comment about it. I just saw that statement and thought it was wrong..

 

[Bulldog]

The Redskins didn't have a first round pick in 2013 or 2014. Gave up not only the #1 but the #2 in 2012.

This was not the typical rebuild where you come in and there are several high picks contributing and you tie them into your system.

The OL and DL outside of Trent Williams and Chris Baker needed to be replaced.

The entire secondary needed to be gutted, including cutting #2 pick David Amerson, who continued to regress.

There was no depth at RB or WR.

And we had a qb that was as fragile as glass and had the ego of a guy that had already won something.

Doesn't sound like a fast turnaround situation to me.

Not with the cap and having to hold onto some guys just to avoid their accelerating bonuses hitting the books.

 

[Smoot Point]

By lack of discipline I assume you mean giving up on the run and having Cousins pass 43 times...like the win against Tampa?

Come on man.

Yes, we need to run the ball more, yes we are more successful with a solid run game, but we've proven (Just 3 weeks ago) this to be wrong.

I said "if we abandone the run, AND SHOW LACK OF DISCIPLINE"... Tampa Bay was the undisciplined team that day, or else we'd have been blown out like we were in the 1st half. Heck, we would've lost if Tampa didn't try a toss sweep on the goal line. Hopefully you and I agree that we didn't win that game because we were good.

 

[Bulldog]

The Redskins don't play clean, which to many former NFL players turned commentators is a good indication that their practices are probably not that crisp and their preparation and focus could be improved as well.

New England is well disciplined. They have starters go out on the OL and the backups come in and don't stand out by making negative plays and taking costly penalties.

The Redskins don't have that kind of recent organizational history to rely on.

Gruden has to build it.

That means drafting and signing smart, hard working players and over time jettisoning guys that have a poor attitude, plain lack talent or have talent but little motivation.

In a microcosm you could look at Andre Roberts, Josh LeRibeus and DeSean Jackson.

Roberts sulked after Jackson was signed and performed poorly as a receiver and returner when he did hit the field. His mediocre production continues in 2015.

Josh LeRibeus has been here for 3 plus years and has gotten on the field only due to injury, despite the often poor performance of the line overall in 2013 and 2014. Now at center, he is what Chris Cooley described as being a 'guy'.

He's not good, he's not the worst player the team has had there. But he is a guy you look at to immediately upgrade from when the time comes.

Jackson as we have discussed before has made the pro bowl, made his millions and is now riding the gravy train until he can break into music and TV/media.

But he is not out there as the first guy busting a hump to try and improve and win something.

Winning for Jackson goes beyond wins/losses on the football field.

In all three cases you would not see these three players on the 2014 Patriots or Seahawks.

And THAT is a measure of how far the Redskins still have to go.

 

[Goaldeje]

The Redskins didn't have a first round pick in 2013 or 2014. Gave up not only the #1 but the #2 in 2012.

This was not the typical rebuild where you come in and there are several high picks contributing and you tie them into your system.

The OL and DL outside of Trent Williams and Chris Baker needed to be replaced.

The entire secondary needed to be gutted, including cutting #2 pick David Amerson, who continued to regress.

There was no depth at RB or WR.

And we had a qb that was as fragile as glass and had the ego of a guy that had already won something.

Doesn't sound like a fast turnaround situation to me.

Not with the cap and having to hold onto some guys just to avoid their accelerating bonuses hitting the books.

I think we're seeing Scot do what you're describing. He is infusing the team with youth and more talent and doing it well.

Gruden is holding us back, as he is not able or willing, evidently, to adapt his schemes to the talent Scot has brought in.

Scot will go get his guy in the offseason, someone who fits what he wants to do, and we will see progress next year. No more hoping for 5 wins.

 

[DieselPwr44]

So Goal, are you of the opinion that this is a talented roster that is being held back only by the coaching staff?

If so, if the "right" guy was in place,what's the ceiling on wins and loses with the current roster?

 

[Goaldeje]

I think we have the makings of a good team but our ceiling is 8 and 8 or so. A great coach, imo, could get to 10-6.

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[Burgundy Burner]

I'm with Henry on this one. Remember, that was the team that went 3-13 the year before and got Petibon fired after just one year as HC. To this day I still believe Gibbs left when he did because he saw the handwriting on the wall and didn't have the energy to work through the rebuild that he could see coming.

And he was dealing with a young, fledgling race team. When he came back for the second time, Gibbs had his son running the team and employed several good managers such as Jimmy Makar.

 

[Miles Monroe]

If we abandon the run, and show a lack of discipline, we don't have a shot against any NFL team.

And every DC we'll face knows that if they stop the run early, we'll abandon it, and depend on Cousins.... and Cousins scares nobody. It's an easy game plane to beat the Skins.

Yes, we need to run the ball more, yes we are more successful with a solid run game, but we've proven (Just 3 weeks ago) this to be wrong.

Outstanding half of football no doubt, but doing it once just isn't enough. That game is just dandy if you isolate it, but I think it actually proves it's an exception and we're easily beatable by any team when you look at the 8 games we've played. Ran well in two games, two wins. Pretty much unable to and abandoned the run in six games, and have one win to show for it. If that doesn't yell "fluke", I don't know what does.....

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time.

 

[Elephant]

And every DC we'll face knows that if they stop the run early, we'll abandon it, and depend on Cousins.... and Cousins scares nobody. It's an easy game plane to beat the Skins.




Outstanding half of football no doubt, but doing it once just isn't enough. That game is just dandy if you isolate it, but I think it actually proves it's an exception and we're easily beatable by any team when you look at the 8 games we've played. Ran well in two games, two wins. Pretty much unable to and abandoned the run in six games, and have one win to show for it. If that doesn't yell "fluke", I don't know what does.....

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time.

His claim was that we didn't have a chance in that situation against any NFL team, we just beat one in the exact manner he said we couldn't. That's my point...blind squirrel or not, we just did what he said we couldn't.

 

[Boone]

Look at Miami where they fired Philben and promoted the TE coach to be HC. How is that working out for them? And without changing the QB either. Or drafting the "right" guys. Or signing any new Free Agents. Or a training camp. Or 5 damn years.

Miami has gotten blown out 2 weeks in a row. That's how it's working out of late. That's your example? They got their ass kicked by the Patriots worse than we did Bob. And then got beat almost as badly by the Bills. And they currently are in last place in the AFC East.

Pointing to a couple of games when an interim coach comes in and fires up a bad team to a couple wins as some meaningful event is no more valid than pointing to a 2nd year head coach who inherited a mess, is still working with talent gaps in a number of spots, and has had injury after injury cripple his team in year two and calling him a failure.

Sorry - I'm not going to roll around in misery, join the dire prediction train, nor thrash the coaching staff. If you guys want to continue to blast the 3 of us who aren't on suicide watch every time we argue for patience, that's your preogative.

 

[Miles Monroe]

His claim was that we didn't have a chance in that situation against any NFL team, we just beat one in the exact manner he said we couldn't. That's my point...blind squirrel or not, we just did what he said we couldn't.

Fair enough, my bad

 

[Smoot Point]

Doesn't sound like a fast turnaround situation to me.

If you look at the Redskins 2003 roster, you'll see we had even fewer parts...

Here is the roster ranked according to production...

QB - Ramsey, Tim Hasselbeck, Rob Johnson, Gibran Hamden (mentioned here for nostalgia) - (replaced by Brunell, Ramsey to backup)
RB - Trung Canidate, Rock Cartwright, Ladell Betts (replaced by Portis with Betts & Cartwright as backup)
WR - Coles, Gardner, McCants, & Patrick Johnson (I dunno either, but he was our 4th WR) - (no significant movement until Moss '05)
TE - Zeron Flemister, Robert Royal (Spurrier didn't believe in TE, so that's why Gibbs traded up for Cooley)
OL - Chris Samuels, Jon Jansen, Larry Moore, Randy Thomas, Derrick Dockery (a good OL, but needed a C. Jansen ruptured Achilles in PS opener, so no RT)
DL - Bruce Smith, Regan Upshaw, Lional Dalton, Renaldo Wynn (Gibbs/Williams replaced 3/4ths of the DL)
LB - Arrington, Trotter, Armstead (Arrington injured in 2004 & was never the same. All 3 positions replaced by Gibbs)
CB - Bailey, Smoot (enough said... great, but Bailey wanted out for 'personal' reasons & we traded him for Portis & pick)
S - Ohalete, Bowen (both replaced by Ryan Clark & Sean Taylor)

After inheriting THAT roster, we went 6-10... not great, but better than 4-12. Gibbs basically had a very good starting OL... CBs were solid, but had to trade away Bailey (as mentioned above). The following year, we went 10-6 and won a playoff game. He didn't have a great GM like we do, he had Cerrato, Pepper Rodgers & Snyder.

Everything wasn't perfect under Gibbs, but we got more results in those 4 years with Gibbs than we have under any coach since Gibbs I era ended.

I agree we aren't a complete team, but last year's roster & this year's roster are better equipped than we were in 2004 & 2005... The NFC East was also a better division in 2004/2005 and you had great coaches in Reid, Parcells, Coughlin & Gibbs. Now, you have a Redskins team that is coached by a guy who isn't anywhere near that class and we're wasting good young talented players who aren't being developed on Gruden and McVay. Bruce Allen & Jay Gruden surrounded themselves with a bunch of rejects from Tampa... You know what Joe Gibbs, the HOF coach, did? Gregg Williams, Joe Bugel, Don Breaux, Ernie Zampese, Greg Blache... You have elite and very experienced NFL coaches on the staff. What does Allen/Gruden do? 1st time HC, 1st time OC (Gruden & McVay)... that is your offense to not only run the team & the offense, but develop the young QBs...

Joe Gibbs had the class to know he couldn't do this alone... At least Gruden brought in Cavanaugh this season, but it's too little too late. You could tell this was going to be a failure the moment Gruden started naming his coaching staff and they brought back Haslett... Then reached out to Joe Barry, Tampa reject and the DC on the worst team in NFL history. I was ready to walk away from this after that hiring. Let's hope the Redskins get back to bringing professionals in to do this job.

 

[Smoot Point]

His claim was that we didn't have a chance in that situation against any NFL team, we just beat one in the exact manner he said we couldn't. That's my point...blind squirrel or not, we just did what he said we couldn't.

To abandon the run because you are down by 24 in the 1st half, isn't exactly showing lack of discipline. Again, the lack of discipline in that game was displayed by the Buccaneers, not the Redskins. We did what we had to do in order to get back into a game we were getting blown out of. Again, we wouldn't have won at all had the Buccaneers not given us that game. We relied heavily on every single one of their mistakes, and if any of their mistakes hadn't happened, we wouldn't have won. If you want a caveat in this "gotcha" game you are playing with me, then I'll say the only NFL teams we can beat are the ones who are far less disciplined than we are and we catch every break the referees are able to send us. Seriously, you should really look at the whole argument instead arguing incessantly over one outlier you found.

 

[Smoot Point]

So Goal, are you of the opinion that this is a talented roster that is being held back only by the coaching staff?

If so, if the "right" guy was in place,what's the ceiling on wins and loses with the current roster?

I just argued this team has more talent than it did in 2004 (before Gibbs took over)... He went 16-16 over 2 years with 1 playoff win. Not saying we have to get to the playoffs, but I'd expect to see a coach learn from his mistakes and adjust more to the talent he has and what teams are doing against his team. Unfortunately, we've had a lack of success in the running game for 6 straight weeks, even though it was supposed to be a priority. Nobody can seem to fix it. Would you imagine this happening to Gibbs? Ever?

 

[Knightingale]

Sorry - I'm not going to roll around in misery, join the dire prediction train, nor thrash the coaching staff. If you guys want to continue to blast the 3 of us who aren't on suicide watch every time we argue for patience, that's your preogative.

Can I make that 4 of us.

 

[Boone]

I don't care what you do tr1.


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[Smoot Point]

Sorry - I'm not going to roll around in misery, join the dire prediction train, nor thrash the coaching staff. If you guys want to continue to blast the 3 of us who aren't on suicide watch every time we argue for patience, that's your preogative.

I'm not recommending we go with an interim head coach, although there is the perfect candidate there in Bill Callahan... However, wouldn't you like to see what Scot McCloughan will do with a new coaching staff of his choosing? I mean, the guys here are all connected to Bruce in some ways. I posted earlier about the Gibbs 2004 HC staff vs what Gruden assembled last year. How he was destined to be a short-term coach simply by those selections... Let's not preach patience for Gruden. It's inevitable he will be fired at the end of the season.

 

[Boone]

I have zero issue if McCloughan decides Gruden isn't the right guy. Zero. I don't know if he is or he isn't. I just know there are many more factors McCloughan is weighing beyond wins and losses and Gruden's facial expressions on the sidelines. He may get fired - and the rest of the season may determine his fate. But inevitable? I think that's just a wild guess. We win out or even win the majority from here on out I would bet Gruden gets another year.

And if you don't think Snyder having to pay another coach millions NOT TO COACH is a factor, well...think again. It's not just McCloughan's call and to be fair it can't be - it's not his pocketbook.

You guys point out that Gruden's not McCloughan's pick, but ignore that even McCloughan recognizes that Gruden inherited a roster that 'wasn't his' and that in many cases wasn't built to run the kind of scheme he prefers. I suspect that McCloughan considers that a much bigger factor than fans do, and realizes that it will take time to field a roster more suitable.

Doesn't mean he won't fire Gruden, but again, it's a complex assessment, not the 'inevitable , simple, clear cut one you're declaring.


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[Elephant]

To abandon the run because you are down by 24 in the 1st half, isn't exactly showing lack of discipline. Again, the lack of discipline in that game was displayed by the Buccaneers, not the Redskins. We did what we had to do in order to get back into a game we were getting blown out of. Again, we wouldn't have won at all had the Buccaneers not given us that game. We relied heavily on every single one of their mistakes, and if any of their mistakes hadn't happened, we wouldn't have won. If you want a caveat in this "gotcha" game you are playing with me, then I'll say the only NFL teams we can beat are the ones who are far less disciplined than we are and we catch every break the referees are able to send us. Seriously, you should really look at the whole argument instead arguing incessantly over one outlier you found.

Call it a gotcha game all you want, but when you make suggestions, flat out claims that are incorrect, misrepresent what has ben said, and continue to bang a drum that all too many are exhausted discussing, I'm gonna step up. Welcome to the board, but don't think you get a pass for false claims and misrepresenting others.

You're argument is that Cousins is done here, I get that. You're argument is that Gruden is done here, I get that too. But there are some of us tired of the carousel, who see enough to give it just a little while longer because there needs to be some stability and if there isn't...we're just gonna end up right back where we were when Shanahan, Zorn, Spurrier, Shottenheimer and Norval all got fired...aimless.