If Its Not A Rebuild Its Not Going To Work

[Bulldog]

Gruden seems as clueless as Spurrier.

He knows the team is poor and there is no order or accountability but he doesn't have the wherewithal to straighten it out.

 

[Ax]

Well, I'm on record as saying he certainly had a horrible rookie season. Not ready to tag him as Spurrier like, yet.

 

[Bulldog]

The trouble is as a first time head coach he needs a supportive GM or he has to be a Parcells type who is ready to stare down the devil.

Unfortunately, Gruden doesn't seem to have the former and his temperament doesn't seem oriented toward the latter either.

 

[Boone]

Gruden seems as clueless as Spurrier.

He knows the team is poor and there is no order or accountability but he doesn't have the wherewithal to straighten it out.

I'd say that's pretty unfair. He's had one season, ONE SEASON...can we all at least agree in theory that learning is possible, that the first 9 month's of a head coach's career don't define his potential? As 'clueless as Spurrier'? No one, not even Jim Zorn, was as clueless as Spurrier. 'Doesn't have the wherewithal to straighten it out'? Not in one year, no - we've established that.

Come on BT. I get the hopelessness, I really do. But no matter who we'd hired, they'd still probably deserve more than one season before having their obituary written. I particularly don't get the 'wherewithal' comment, as if there's one thing we've learned about Gruden in season 1, it's that he's going to do what he wants to do on the football side of things. Not crapping his pants at the thought of what the higher ups think of his decisions, I think that's a positive starting point even if the season itself was a disaster.

If he does the opposite of what he's stated he'll do, and keeps the usual suspects in place and has another year like this one with no growth, then maybe it's fair to start calling him prematurely done. But after 1 season?

 

[Bulldog]

It's just my hunch.

I watched Bill Walsh go through a 2-14 season in 1979 and lose 55-14 to the Dallas Cowboys on national tv.

But you know what? How he handled himself and the players I told my father in the end I thought he would be successful and Landry would regret running up the score on a team that was just acquiring its first pieces.

 

[Henry]

Well, I think it is a problem when we tie up $11M in an OLB with a history of injury and an inflated sense of his self-worth.

For one year. If he didn't work out (which he hasn't) you let him go. No fuss no muss, no cap implications.

That's the least of our problems.

I also think it is a problem when you look back at say 2011 and project that the only long-term starter we are likely to end up with is Kerrigan, who was taken #1.

When you look back through the picks remember that those extra picks were not in Rounds 1 or 2, many of them were in Rounds 6 or 7.

I don't call that making a commitment to the draft.

When you consistently trade away #1 and #2 picks it leaves your team short of playmakers.

And yet you talk about Seattle all the time. Nine of Seattle's starters were drafted by the Seahawks in rounds 3-7 since 2010. Just like any team that has accumulated picks, most of theirs were late rounders also. Their draft positioning looks eerily similar to ours. They didn't have a 2nd rounder in 2011. They didn't have a first rounder last year or this year. They just hit on their picks that they did have. We haven't.

And why you draft an outside linebacker in Round 2 whose bio includes that he is not a great athlete, lacks an initial burst to the qb, etc is just beyond me.

What is the one thing an OLB has to do in the 3-4? Pressure the quarterback.

Yeah, if only we had been able to draft and retain a pass-rushing OLB ...

Even though he was hurt in 2014 I thought Dallas picked a better OLB in Lawrence than we got in Murphy.

When you add that our 'extra' pick for moving down was Spencer Long who was inactive almost the entire season, that doesn't make me feel all full of good cheer for this front office.

I'm sorry. Are you under the impression I'm full of good cheer these days?

I think my exact words were 'our front office sucks.' Where we differ is I don't think lack of commitment to the draft is the reason why. We've been diligently drafting away for years now. We just suck at it.

 

[Bulldog]

Once you trade three first rounders in a row and a second rounder for ANY player in a sport that starts 22 guys you know you are in trouble.

Draft? What draft? By the time the Redskins were making picks the top 50-60 guys were already off the board.

I consistently have this argument with Redskins fans and my point is coming out of college was Griffin worth more as a prospect entering the NFL than John Elway or Peyton Manning?

No. So why did we do grossly overpay to get the pick?

Because the team was impatient from the top down. I found a new toy and I want it no matter what it costs.

When these same folks mention that Cleveland was willing to give up the same basket of picks my response is YES but that front office was all fired after last season for their accumulated failures!


Let's compare ourselves to what winners do, not other losers!

 

[Henry]

I wasn't comparing our drafting strategy to Cleveland's. I compared it to Seattle's, who traded away two 1st rounders for a guy who's not even on the team anymore, yet are still likely to head to their second straight Superbowl. Because they had a ton of late-round picks and hit on some of them.

 

[CounterTrey]

If he does the opposite of what he's stated he'll do, and keeps the usual suspects in place and has another year like this one with no growth, then maybe it's fair to start calling him prematurely done. But after 1 season?

My sig is proof positive that he's more than willing to do just that.

 

[Primus Porcus]

My sig is proof positive that he's more than willing to do just that.

The last couple weeks I do think he did better adjusting to suit Griffin and it seemingly paid off to an extent. He's developing as a head coach too...

 

[CounterTrey]

I'm open to that, I think the folks who are extremely critical of the job he's done thus far are correct though.

 

[Neophyte]

Obviously that's a part of it, but we consistently draft guys that can't break the starting line up, or can't perform if/when they do. And it's not like most of our picks go to other teams and thrive. For every Ryan Kerrigan or Alfred Morris there are 6 or 7 guys every year who don't end up contributing meaningfully. We are talent poor, and we have been for the better part of a decade. And it works both ways - you can't coach someone into being an NFL starter if the talent level isn't there.

I don't buy it. With the exception of a handful of guys every year, you can't slide two quarters between the guys in the middle of the 1st round and the guys at the top of the 3rd talent wise. Or between the guys at the top of the 3rd and the bottom of the 5th. Every guy drafted has the physical "talent" to play at this level. The question then becomes one of how to get the most out of that talent and we have consistently failed to do that. Name the last offensive lineman that we have truly developed from a later round draft pick into a starter? The last DB? Or LB?

In our hay day Gibbs staff routinely took guys drafted in rounds that don't even exist anymore and turned them into solid starters in this league. With the exception of the Gibbs II, this team has consistently failed to do that since 1992. In fact, you could argue that even the handful of guys we have drafted who were/are among that handful of "superior" guys regress more than than they progress. Look at Orakpo, Landry and Rogers. I even consider Griff to be boarder line in this group but I'm giving him an injury pass for now.

We just lack the talent on the coaching staff to get the most out of our guys. I look at AZ and Arians this season and I just can't help but think this is an 8 win team with Arians picking the coaches, and running the team.

*shrug*

Maybe I expect too much from the coaching staff but there it is.

 

[Neophyte]

I wasn't comparing our drafting strategy to Cleveland's. I compared it to Seattle's, who traded away two 1st rounders for a guy who's not even on the team anymore, yet are still likely to head to their second straight Superbowl. Because they had a ton of late-round picks and hit on some of them.

Hit on them or developed them? Coached them up?

I think they drafted guys who physically fit their system and then did an excellent coaching job. As much as it pains me to say that.

 

[Henry]

Hit on them or developed them? Coached them up?

I think they drafted guys who physically fit their system and then did an excellent coaching job. As much as it pains me to say that.

Oh, no argument from me on that. It sure does help to have an overall identity/plan. I'd say the closest we've come to that was 2010-2013, but it was a lukewarm effort, at best. Mostly because the mid and late-round guys we drafted, with a few notable exceptions, didn't pan out. That, and Shanahan wasted his entire first year here on The McNabb Experiment.

 

[Bulldog]

Seattle's offensive line has Okung (#1), Carpenter (#1), Unger (#2) and Britt (#2) as starters.

On defense playmakers such as Bobby Wagner (#2), Bruce Irvin (#1) and Earl Thomas (#1) were high picks.

Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett were smart value free agents that the Redskins could have signed to rush the passer.

Yes, Seattle has made some excellent late round picks, but it's inaccurate to say they blew their high picks and didn't get value.

Every team makes a bad move or two.

Golden Tate (#2) helped Seattle win the Super Bowl last year and had a good year in Detroit in 2014. Perhaps they should have paid him to stay. And yes, the Percy Harvin trade was a bust.

But the team overcame these and make good decisions with the balance of the picks and free agent acquisitions.

And that's picking a lot later in the draft than the Redskins usually find themselves.

 

[Henry]

Seattle's offensive line has Okung (#1), Carpenter (#1), Unger (#2) and Britt (#2) as starters.

On defense playmakers such as Bobby Wagner (#2), Bruce Irvin (#1) and Earl Thomas (#1) were high picks.

Yeah, we drafted starters in the first round too. Williams, Kerrigan, Griffin, Orakpo. We drafted Murphy in the second round.

The problem is not the lack of draft picks. It's the players we take with them.

And, as it has been mentioned a few times, coaching turnover and inconsistency of philosophy. That has killed this team for decades.

Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett were smart value free agents that the Redskins could have signed to rush the passer.

Yes, Seattle has made some excellent late round picks, but it's inaccurate to say they blew their high picks and didn't get value.

I didn't say they blew their high picks. I said they built through the draft. Just like we did.

They just hit on a LOT of their picks. Like we didn't.

Every team makes a bad move or two.

Golden Tate (#2) helped Seattle win the Super Bowl last year and had a good year in Detroit in 2014. Perhaps they should have paid him to stay. And yes, the Percy Harvin trade was a bust.

But the team overcame these and make good decisions with the balance of the picks and free agent acquisitions.

And that's picking a lot later in the draft than the Redskins usually find themselves.

Yes! You got it!

They make better decisions with the picks. And until we do, all the overhauls and rebuilds in the world won't matter.

 

[Boone]

I don't buy it. With the exception of a handful of guys every year, you can't slide two quarters between the guys in the middle of the 1st round and the guys at the top of the 3rd talent wise. Or between the guys at the top of the 3rd and the bottom of the 5th. Every guy drafted has the physical "talent" to play at this level. The question then becomes one of how to get the most out of that talent and we have consistently failed to do that. Name the last offensive lineman that we have truly developed from a later round draft pick into a starter? The last DB? Or LB?

In our hay day Gibbs staff routinely took guys drafted in rounds that don't even exist anymore and turned them into solid starters in this league. With the exception of the Gibbs II, this team has consistently failed to do that since 1992. In fact, you could argue that even the handful of guys we have drafted who were/are among that handful of "superior" guys regress more than than they progress. Look at Orakpo, Landry and Rogers. I even consider Griff to be boarder line in this group but I'm giving him an injury pass for now.

We just lack the talent on the coaching staff to get the most out of our guys. I look at AZ and Arians this season and I just can't help but think this is an 8 win team with Arians picking the coaches, and running the team.

*shrug*

Maybe I expect too much from the coaching staff but there it is.

The margins may be narrower, but I still think talent varies wildly among drafted players Bob. The space you're fitting your quarters between is the difference between a Revis and an Amerson, a Doug Martin and a Marshawn Lynch. I'm not discounting coaching at all. But only a portion of drafted players on any team succeed in the NFL. On good teams, that portion is consistently larger. For the Redskins, it's been far often a smaller percentage. The ones that do succeed don't do so solely because of all that great 'coaching up'. They succeed mostly because they have the physical gifts to play at an elite level required for true NFL starters.

There are a lot of factors that contribute to team success. Coaching, scheme, consistency and stability, discipline...but none of those things trump talent in my opinion. Even when we had great coaching (Gibbs II), we could barely overcome our overall lack of talent across the board. We have to become better at talent evaluation if we are ever going to build a consistent winner.

And poor Redskins fans, all we can point to for examples are players on the old Gibbs I teams. That was a different era. Most of the blue collar types who helped us be perennial playoff teams couldn't have even have made today's NFL practice squads. The game has gotten exponentially faster, bigger, and more challenging. Pure physical skills and talent matter more now than they did back then.

 

[Bulldog]

Exactly so.

You don't think Trent Williams became a pro bowler because Chris Foerster is such a great technician and teacher.

He has elite athleticism, balance, coordination and strength.

Judging from 2014 a pretty high threshold for playing with pain too.

Maybe that can rub off on a talented but brittle player like Jordan Reed who is out of the lineup every few weeks with a strain or a bruise.

 

[thesubmittedone]

I can't remember where I read this, but someone put up the stats and compared us to other organizations in terms of spending high draft picks on the trenches. I think it was actually Kdawg who did it, but I'm not 100% sure.

Either way, I think we ended up having the worst percentage IN THE ENTIRE NFL in terms of 1st to 4th round picks spent on Oline and Dline for the last decade or so. The. Worst. Let that sink in.

That is our most glaring issue in terms of personnel acquisition. The problem is, the guys we put at the top of personnel acquisition (playing the roles of GM or a title similar to it) are either completely inept at it (Vinny), have been mediocre to bad at it or aren't experts at it (Bruce), or are coaches who also assume that role, which is difficult to do and is also often not their specialty (Marty, Gibbs, Shanahan). And you know Dan is/was standing there, hovering over all of them the entire time whispering sweet nothings in their ears.

Like, for the love of God. Do that right for once. It's crazy.

 

[Bulldog]

Kenard Lang in 1997 was the last #1 pick for Washington that was a DL.

But we have drafted a multitude of defensive backs early, including Bailey, Landry, Carlos Rogers and Sean Taylor.

I remember Landry as a strange pick in that we already had invested in Sean and Sean worked quite well with Ryan Clark the year before.

Carlos Rogers was not worth the #9 overall choice.

But the point again that I agree with is the team does not invest in the front line on either side of the ball in Round 1 on a regular basis, and that is unlike most clubs in the NFL.