DRAFT DAY (3)

[fansince62]

Might have also stood pat and picked up both Wilson and Cousins.

yup.

I'm happier than a pig in you know what that we have "our guy". I think he is going to be one of the all-time Skins QBs.

I think he is going to lead us to championships sooner rather than later.

sidebar: am coming around to ht e position held by some others...wish he'd tweet a little less.

 

[servumtuum]

Well, I'm still at the "trying to get into Jay G.'s head" point right now, still being fuzzy about just what Gruden has in mind as far as what kind of system/scheme he has in mind but a couple of things entered my head so far.

We've added bulk up front-serious bulk. Remember we grabbed Mike McGlynn the Eagles' former OT in FA to add to the "who's gonna wind up doing what and where" mix. Think less the finesse of redirecting the opponents momentum of aikido and more the shoving people around of sumo.

One thing I think of is the quickly evaporating pocket RG3 had to deal with last season. Look, if you're going to add more of a pocket passing game to Griff's repetiore adding perhaps a full second of non-collapsing pocket would be a nice step in that direction. The acquisitions we now have at least seem to indicate a desire to accomplish that.

I'm picturing Trent Murphy lining up against T. Polumbo in practice and saying "Hey, I'm raw-boned country strong and I have a spin move too". Things may become difficult for Tyler as far as keeping his starting spot. Potential upside scenario of course but it is a nice one to picture.

Still kinda scratching my head over the Bolser pick-the rest of them I understood, or was able to come up with a reasonable rationale for their selection. Since OC McVay used to be TE coach there may be some idea there I'm just not seeing yet.

But I still go back to my not drawing any "cut in stone" conclusions much less any kind of "grade" for this Skins draft especially considering what we got in FA-a bunch of LBs and a few DEs-a few others too-plus what we drafted. It's too dependent, to me at least, on forming a cohesive mental image of the kind of team and system Gruden is envisioning, the kinds of players he thinks/feels will be most useful implementing said system and how well said system will work with the components he and Allen have added when we go up against other teams who, as fansince astutely observed, have been equally busy trying to upgrade their systems as well.

You want a grade anyway? O.K.-"Incomplete"

Incomplete both in terms of provoding enough information so far to even solidify criteria by which I could draw a defensible judgement and the acknowledgement that this is only one early piece of the "Gruden's Redskins" picture.

 

[Boone]

You all need to watch the Gruden videos posted on the home page if you have not had a chance to hear his post Day 2 and Day 3 comments. First of all, you just have to love Gruden's no BS approach. I don't know if he's going to lead us to the promised land, but I know one thing - this guy is 100% football coach. I just love everything I hear from him. Secondly, it's clear that despite non-threatening previous comments about the quality of our OL, Gruden saw that this was the #1 area of need for this team, and he brought in two big uglies that are going to go a long way towards helping close the holes we've lived with for awhile now. Finally, I love the focus on drafting guys with the right 'personality' with a huge focus on work ethic, toughness, accountability, and desire. We're not going to see a Fred Davis drafted with this regime. We're going to see guys drafted who are the right kind of guys - the kind of guys that lead to winning as a team. I am very encouraged.

 

[TomE]

yup.

I'm happier than a pig in you know what that we have "our guy". I think he is going to be one of the all-time Skins QBs.

I think he is going to lead us to championships sooner rather than later.

sidebar: am coming around to ht e position held by some others...wish he'd tweet a little less.

Yeah, he's ours regardless of the cost. I think he's smart enough (now) to realize that 'up here in the NFL' most if not all players are driven and committed as much as he is and will get after it until the stuff is done.

The tweet thing.... well.... I recall as a teenager seeking extreme privacy when talking to my girl on the phone, most other communication was face to face and personal space was highly guarded, now I suppose there is the need to let all know 'wazzup' and it's poor form not to, go figure.

 

[Cycleans]

Cousins isn't the QB Griffin is. I am not fool enough to believe that. But if you really think we have improved enough to win a division title again, I don't know what to say but I disagree. I think our division is weak, but unless 7-9 is good enough to win division we won't win it. And if we do go 7-9, I will be happy with that since it will be an vast improvement. In year 2 of Gruden's tenure I expect Division title, but we have a lot to overcome to go out and win it this year.

You mentioned with a wobbly knee he was still as good as average in the NFL...and my point all along is that the cost we paid, average is a failure, regardless of the injury. It was his all out, reckless style of play that had me up in arms about a trade...envisioning exactly what I saw against Seattle just 50 feet away from me. If his style of play does not change, we will see him clutching Trent Williams in agony, once again.

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I am simply tired of the B&G colored glasses too many Redskins' fans wear. There is nothing wrong with criticism, it doesn't make you less a fan. Overall thoughts coming from the draft are a solid B. We addressed the biggest weakness on the team in my mind, the right side of our OL with 2 players who should be able to compete for the starting role out of the gate...and the kid Murphy from Stanford is growing on me.

Well as A Skins fan we haven't had much to get excited about at the qb position in a long time. I'm savoring the moment. Griffin tore his knee that was heartbreaking but that could happen to any QB at anytime... I would still take Griffin over any of the Qbs that were drafted this season as well.

 

[DieselPwr44]

. since you're playing hypotheticals: would we be better off had we managed a trade for Luck?

No. Nothing changes. We still give up at least 3 picks for Luck, plus we give up elite mobility,which is what RG3 possesses.

And had we stayed pat and drafted Wilson....I can hear the moaning and gnashing of teeth on draft day now.

He's sooo little!! We had a chance to trade up and we didn't??

Does Wilson even have the same success here?

Annnnd...judging by the way Shanny chose his Olinemen, how do you know he'd have spent high picks on good ones?

Heck, at least Jay seems to understand that if you want to be physical, you better have some meat behind the punch.

 

[fansince62]

No. Nothing changes. We still give up at least 3 picks for Luck, plus we give up elite mobility,which is what RG3 possesses.

And had we stayed pat and drafted Wilson....I can hear the moaning and gnashing of teeth on draft day now.

He's sooo little!! We had a chance to trade up and we didn't??

Does Wilson even have the same success here?

Annnnd...judging by the way Shanny chose his Olinemen, how do you know he'd have spent high picks on good ones?

Heck, at least Jay seems to understand that if you want to be physical, you better have some meat behind the punch.

good answer!

I think we're mixing apples and oranges here. if you want to get into how Shanny went about his biz...there was definite logic to it:

- Griff was not in a system that prep'd him for NFL pocket passing

- Shanahans decided to build a system around him that was very much like the Baylor scheme

- Shanahans decided to emphasize mobility with the read option

- Shanahans have always used zone blocking scheme and the type of athletes that make that work. and have won SBs.

So, we can argue whether their ZBS concept was outdated and whether their approach the first year (the results of which everyone on this board seems to favor) was the best way to go. but I don't think they neglected the o-line. they actually drafted quite a few o-linemen and sought out players who fit their scheme. they coulda done better - absolutely. but to argue they neglected o-line or failed (given 2012) is not accurate IMO.

The argument that the strategy was not conducive to QB health...can't debate that! but there was a logic and it did work in 2012. per El and you...not a good strategy for the long-term. it wasn't the o-line that failed....it was the strategy that failed in an NFL that is pass happy with teams accommodating by beefing up pass rush and pass coverage.

as for shift to power game....yup....that's exactly what we're doing. can't wait to see if it works!

 

[Lanky Livingston]

In an ideal world, we stand pat in 2012, draft Luke Kuechly or Dontari Poe to shore up the defense, take Russel Wilson in the 2nd or 3rd round, or just draft Cousins in the 4th, and go from there. In 2013, we trade back with the Jags instead of the Rams, or stay put and take Luke Joeckel to shore up the RT spot. We take more OL and Defense, and we're sitting pretty for the 2013 season to make a Seattle-like run.

OR

We stay put, draft epic bust Morris Claiborne at 6th overall (or trade back and take Kirkpatrick, another huge bust). In the second round, maybe we try to improve the offense and take WR Brian Quick, who hasn't done jack or squat yet.

There's a slew of terrible draft picks we COULD have made instead of trading up for Griffin, just like there are a slew of "ideal" situations we could have found ourselves in. The fact of the matter is, given who was steering the ship at the time, I don't really have any confidence that we'd be any better off than we are now with all of those draft picks. On top of that, we'd have pretty decent QB Kirk Cousins, but he hasn't shown anything to me at least that he's any better than a capable backup. His former coach who supposedly loved him, opted for 5'2" Wildcat QB instead, so that should say something.

I see both sides of the coin, but frankly, Griffin is a superlative talent. Does his desire get him into trouble at times? Sure. I don't know if I'd categorize him as "wreckless;" the hit from Ngata came on a broken pass play where he scrambled, and he didn't see him coming. Could've happened to anyone. HAS happened to lots of players. The point of contention now becomes should he have been left in at all the rest of that season, and I say no. Should he have started 2013; I say no. These are all not Griffin's decision, they go on someone else's shoulders.

Personally, I think the revisionist history is just as bad, if not worse than the homerism. As if everything would be great if we'd just stood pat and not given up so much for Griffin. I know one thing for certain - we would have missed out on one of the more exciting seasons in franchise history in 2012, and possibly much more to come. Perhaps Teddy Bridgewater could fill that void for us, or maybe EJ Manuel could've done the trick; but Griffin DID. He's here now, what we gave up for him for all intents and purposes is irrelevant.

 

[DieselPwr44]

You know fan, I don't believe the zone scheme is outdated...I just think that outside of Trent Williams, Shanny stunk at picking linemen!

What was always strange to me, is that Shanny said he liked big guys, as long as they could move. Problem was, he never thought anyone of interest could move and we settled for the 285-300 lb range linemen.

Moses needs work,Long needs to get 100% but heck, at least imo, we finally have something to work with.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Todd McShay just called Morgan Moses a top 15 player in this draft. Wow. We definitely may have found the answer at RT.

 

[Chris]

Gruden calls the picks "tough, high character, high motor guys".

Music to my ears.

 

[Elephant]

I see both sides of the coin, but frankly, Griffin is a superlative talent. Does his desire get him into trouble at times? Sure. I don't know if I'd categorize him as "wreckless;" the hit from Ngata came on a broken pass play where he scrambled, and he didn't see him coming. Could've happened to anyone. HAS happened to lots of players. The point of contention now becomes should he have been left in at all the rest of that season, and I say no. Should he have started 2013; I say no. These are all not Griffin's decision, they go on someone else's shoulders.

Not sure about revisionist history or anything else, but the part highlighted above is just not true!!! He saw 3 defenders coverging on him and dove forward. A great QB slides and takes the penalty.

 

[Elephant]

Moses needs work,Long needs to get 100% but heck, at least imo, we finally have something to work with.

And this is what I like about this draft...wasn't sure about the trade down, but it netted us 2 potential starting lineman.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Not sure about revisionist history or anything else, but the part highlighted above is just not true!!! He saw 3 defenders coverging on him and dove forward. A great QB slides and takes the penalty.

And? It doesn't change the fact that it was a broken pass play. He scrambled to extend the play, and got injured on a freak hit. This isn't evidence that we gave up too much for him, it's evidence he was unlucky. It doesn't change the fact that Shamahan's drafting had been suspect at best, and it doesn't tell us what we'd have ended up with if we didn't make the trade.

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[Elephant]

And? It doesn't change the fact that it was a broken pass play. He scrambled to extend the play, and got injured on a freak hit. This isn't evidence that we gave up too much for him, it's evidence he was unlucky. It doesn't change the fact that Shamahan's drafting had been suspect at best, and it doesn't tell us what we'd have ended up with if we didn't make the trade.

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I didn't say it wasn't a broken pass play...I didn't even say that injuries couldn't happen to anybody...what I said was, and I will put it in quotes for you, "the part highlighted above is just not true!" Of course the part that was highlighted was your revision of history, he did see the hit coming!!!!

It was the exact style of play I saw from him while he was at Baylor...trying to extend a play when it wasn't worth the hit.

When he saw Kruger bearing down on him, he then glanced to see Ngata bearing down on him, and dove forward. Watch the tape!!! He should have slid. The smart ones slide...hoping for a possible penalty if they do get hit. Had he slid, he may have gotten 15 extra yards instead of a playoff loss against the Seahawks because of his hubris!

It could/should have been avoided! But he wanted that extra 6 or 7 feet by diving forward. Avoidable injury but his determination outweighed his smarts.

 

[MikeSr619]

It sure is good to have football back.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Well now you're just being unreasonable. He could've gotten injured on the next play. He still could've gotten injured against Seattle. So many ifs, yet you draw a direct connection. Your mind is made up, so I'm not gonna try to reason with you.

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[fansince62]

You know fan, I don't believe the zone scheme is outdated...I just think that outside of Trent Williams, Shanny stunk at picking linemen!

What was always strange to me, is that Shanny said he liked big guys, as long as they could move. Problem was, he never thought anyone of interest could move and we settled for the 285-300 lb range linemen.

Moses needs work,Long needs to get 100% but heck, at least imo, we finally have something to work with.

well.....I'm onboard. the draft is done. now it's time to make things happen. I think TyPO will make for good depth

 

[fansince62]

I didn't say it wasn't a broken pass play...I didn't even say that injuries couldn't happen to anybody...what I said was, and I will put it in quotes for you, "the part highlighted above is just not true!" Of course the part that was highlighted was your revision of history, he did see the hit coming!!!!

It was the exact style of play I saw from him while he was at Baylor...trying to extend a play when it wasn't worth the hit.

When he saw Kruger bearing down on him, he then glanced to see Ngata bearing down on him, and dove forward. Watch the tape!!! He should have slid. The smart ones slide...hoping for a possible penalty if they do get hit. Had he slid, he may have gotten 15 extra yards instead of a playoff loss against the Seahawks because of his hubris!

It could/should have been avoided! But he wanted that extra 6 or 7 feet by diving forward. Avoidable injury but his determination outweighed his smarts.

have to agree on the ngata play. that's what I saw as well.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Keep in mind, the knee wasn't injured on the hit itself. His leg hit Ngata on the exact right spot and wrapped around his body. It was a freak injury on a freak play. He could take that same hit 1000 times and jump up 999 times just fine.