Change of Thought: Let Orakpo Go

Well, today's a big day for this topic. I said it before....I'll say it again......either sign him or franchise him, but KEEP him. We have other holes to fill and we need not piss around worrying about a new hole left with his departure. McD5 said it well....we're still set in those positions after losing players like Laron Landry, Ryan Clark, Carlos Rogers, Antonio Pierce. It's just not that east to find players of a certain quality. Let's not put ourselves in the position of having to again......for no reason. If we have to, franchise him, make him prove himself again, and then deal with this again in a year. Information is king....and we'll have more information about Rak a year from now.

Just my 2 cents.

Which leaves me with 1 cent. So, let's not have any more issues......cause I won't have enough to weigh in.

even more so: look at a top team like SF. they actually keep a lot of their #1 picks. here in DC...we burn this stuff like so much extra rubbish for the heap. it's no wonder we can never build a roster. a strategy predicated on mid to lower round picks as the bulwark doesn't work - that much should be obvious.

this team continue to mismanage its manpower - it will never, ever compete.
 
even more so: look at a top team like SF. they actually keep a lot of their #1 picks. here in DC...we burn this stuff like so much extra rubbish for the heap. it's no wonder we can never build a roster. a strategy predicated on mid to lower round picks as the bulwark doesn't work - that much should be obvious.

this team continue to mismanage its manpower - it will never, ever compete.

Yes, but that's because SF has a stellar front office. If we could trade front offices I'd take that trade in a heartbeat every day of the week.

We've never had problems shelling out money for people. That's the only good thing about Dan Snyder according to majority of Redskins fans - He's willing to spend.

What we've always had trouble with is talent evaluation.

look at the list
List of Washington Redskins first-round draft picks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Code:
2004 	5 	Sean Taylor 	S 	Miami (FL) 	[45]
2005 	9 	Carlos Rogers 	CB 	Auburn 	
25 	Jason Campbell 	QB 	Auburn 	[46]
2006 	No first-round draft pick 	[47]
2007 	6 	LaRon Landry 	S 	Louisiana State 	
2008 	No first-round draft pick 	[48]
2009 	13 	Brian Orakpo 	DE 	Texas 	
2010 	4 	Trent Williams 	T 	Oklahoma 	
2011 	16 	Ryan Kerrigan 	DE 	Purdue 	
2012 	2 	Robert Griffin III 	QB 	Baylor 	[49]
In 10 years we've had 8 first round draft picks.
Taylor was murdered.
Rogers had sour relationships with the team (and its fanbase) and went somewhere else. We can't even use him as a problem - Majority of fans chased him out of town and wanted nothing to do with him, to now say 'we never sign our own' doesn't really Apply.
I think most people would agree we gave Campbell enough chances - some would say too many.
Landry - well, was that really a bad move? Injured, seemed to be lacking anything between the ears, generally overrated player (Vinny first round pick was an over rated player? You don't say!) that had flashes but just never turned out to be what you expect for #1. I don't see too many regrets there.

Orakpo may not come back and if so it appears to only be because there's a big disagreement on his value and worth. Otherwise relationships seem good and he seems like the type of player you want to keep - again, it's just an issue with price.

Unless things go horribly awry, we should be keeping Williams, Kerrigan, and Griffin.

The common theme? Shanahan's first round draft picks were on guys you can count on being long term starters and potentially dominate players - Williams was recently rated #1 LT in the league and Griffin won rookie of the year with a dominant performance. Kerrigan is by all accounts also a solid guy.

Cerrato drafted... well guys that aren't here anymore.

The root cause was terrible draft picks, not some ingrained culture in Redskins management that refuses to spend money when it needs to (like some other franchises.)
 
Here is some non-hyperbole. Per the NFL network, Rak has never sacked Tony Romo. Not once.

Technically true, though didn't the holding call he drew in '09 call back a Dallas TD to end the game?
 
Yes, but that's because SF has a stellar front office. If we could trade front offices I'd take that trade in a heartbeat every day of the week.

We've never had problems shelling out money for people. That's the only good thing about Dan Snyder according to majority of Redskins fans - He's willing to spend.

What we've always had trouble with is talent evaluation.

look at the list
List of Washington Redskins first-round draft picks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Code:
2004 5 Sean Taylor S Miami (FL) [45]
2005 9 Carlos Rogers CB Auburn 
25 Jason Campbell QB Auburn [46]
2006 No first-round draft pick [47]
2007 6 LaRon Landry S Louisiana State 
2008 No first-round draft pick [48]
2009 13 Brian Orakpo DE Texas 
2010 4 Trent Williams T Oklahoma 
2011 16 Ryan Kerrigan DE Purdue 
2012 2 Robert Griffin III QB Baylor [49]
In 10 years we've had 8 first round draft picks.

That's a pretty talented list. Fans in the know wanted Carlos here, because he was good in coverage (he just couldn't catch). Then he goes to San Fran, they get him contacts, and he picks off like 8 passes his first year. That's a big eff you to Gregggg. ST & Landry were great together, in the limited time they had; taking two safeties in the top 6 in a three year span was moronic, but the talent was there. Trent Williams might be the most talented LT we've had ever.

The only real misses I see are Campbell and Landry, and only Landry because it was a stupid pick. First round picks have never been our problem, it's the fact that so much talent become disgruntled or want to leave. Champ, Carlos, Arrington, Pierce, Clark... It's ridiculous. No other team had turnover like this.

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We have to pay him. If he is looking for $20M a year, fine, we won't pay him. But the message it sends to the locker room is really important. Many of us have worked for a company that brings in outside talent instead of promoting and paying their "homegrown" talent, and it is discouraging. Showing the guys who have been working for years that being a "core Redskins" player is important, imo. As Henry has been saying, overpaying for our own talent is much more palatable than overpaying for an unknown. That hasn't worked well.
 
Yep... retaining Orakpo is the easiest decision the team will face this offseason, IMO.

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Fans in the know wanted Carlos here, because he was good in coverage (he just couldn't catch).

I'm aware. I was one of those fans.

But do we really need to go back and look at all the threads on all the redskins boards, pull up media (articles, podcasts, etc) about the public crying to get rid of 'Stone Hands'?

No. We don't. You and I, and everyone else here I imagine, is well aware of what went out leading up to Rogers becoming a free agent. The only thing that could have saved it was not having a FO that based their decisions on fan's opinions.

I disagree with you on the list. Everything pre-shanahan was traded away picks (for what?) and over rated players. We were piss poor talent evaluators. In a league where first round picks should be can't-miss, long term solutions at positions we were not very good at it.
 
First round picks are never "can't miss." It took Matt Millen like 17 drafts to find a WR. We were at around 75%, which I think is probably right around the median success rate for first round picks.

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First round picks are never "can't miss." It took Matt Millen like 17 drafts to find a WR. We were at around 75%, which I think is probably right around the median success rate for first round picks.

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They're supposed to be. Every quality GM in the league knows that. Missing on a first round pick is inexcusable!

10 first round picks over the years (the ones we traded away still count in my opinion). We're looking at best of having 4 of them going into this season, 3 if we don't resign Orakpo. You could say 5 with, 4 without orakpo, if you want to count the two Griffin cost us - I'm ok with that. Otherwise: That - is - terrible.

And I'm sorry but Millen was awful, so that doesn't really help your argument in my opinion :)
 
Yes, but we only have 3 or 4 because we didn't retain them (or they were friggin murdered), not because they weren't talented!

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I will say it again, from my perspective Orakpo is not the impact player that a Terrell Suggs or James Harrison was in their primes, therefore the idea of paying him as if he were is just a mistake.

Redskins fans seem chastened because of the 'fish' that have escaped in the past, ie that list of free agents that started here.

But the difference is that Clark and Pierce weren't paid franchise money by the Steelers and Giants.

The Redskins in those cases thought they could 'upgrade' with 'stars' like Adam Archuleta.

That is where those decisions were mistakes.

This time is different. The team seems willing to give Orakpo a multiyear deal to recognize his value to the team, but he seems to want the kind of crazy money that some team like Oakland or Miami might pony up.

If his goal is simply to go to the highest bidder I think we should let him go.

Let the Raiders give him a 6 year, $70M deal with $20M plus guaranteed.

The Skins need to rebuild an entire roster after 3-13.

If the team signs Orakpo and he gets hurt again with the back, that big salary will only hold the team back.
 
Okay, let's look at Ozzie and the Ravens last ten first rounders:

2013: Matt Elam - jury's out
2012: no pick
2011: Jimmy Smith - solid CB, successful first rounder IMO. No probowls or similar accolades.
2010: no pick
2009: Michael Oher - solid, not spectacular RT. They wanted him at LT, but he couldn't handle it.
2008: Joe Flacco - they certainly paid him like he was amazing, but there's a lot of doubt about his talent.
2007: Ben Grubbs - all universe guard, awesome pick.
2006: Haloti Ngata - all world NT, amazing pick at 14.
2005: Mark Clayton - so-so, up and down receiver, plagued by injury. Let him walk in 2009 to St. Louis where he was again injury plagued. Out of football.
2004: no pick
2003: Terrell Suggs - all universe, great pick.
Kyle Boller - ummmmmm

By my math, the ravens are batting 750 if you're generous, 500 if you're realistic. Ozzie Smith (Edit: NEWSOME, DAMMIT) is regarded as the best GM in football...

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Yes, but we only have 3 or 4 because we didn't retain them (or they were friggin murdered), not because they weren't talented!

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Oh come on. Taylor was murdered and that's about the only excuse he gets. The 2 traded away picks were for nothing. Rogers left because the FO valued fans' opinions - not because we have a systemic problem with signing our own. JC was given ample opportunities.

Orakpo is the only guy out of that list that falls inline with signing our own talent. My original point was saying that we have a systemic problem with signing our own talent is just a false narrative.

We're an organization know for throwing whatever money it'll take to get whatever guy we've currently fixated on. Now we're one that has a problem retaining our own talent?

Sorry, but that's a crock. The Cerrato era was a problem with talent evaluation, not willingness to spend. We spent plenty, just on the wrong guys.
 
I dont get why you always compare him to some of the most elite players in the game and because he doesnt live up to that you think he is no good.

it doesnt make any sense and even when people prove how much money has been sunk in to those players you continue to do it.

its not genuine.

Who's said he's no good?

And the only people comparing him to elite talent is him, his agent, and the people that think we need to sign him at any cost.
 
Oh come on. Taylor was murdered and that's about the only excuse he gets. The 2 traded away picks were for nothing. Rogers left because the FO valued fans' opinions - not because we have a systemic problem with signing our own. JC was given ample opportunities.

Orakpo is the only guy out of that list that falls inline with signing our own talent. My original point was saying that we have a systemic problem with signing our own talent is just a false narrative.

We're an organization know for throwing whatever money it'll take to get whatever guy we've currently fixated on. Now we're one that has a problem retaining our own talent?

Sorry, but that's a crock. The Cerrato era was a problem with talent evaluation, not willingness to spend. We spent plenty, just on the wrong guys.

We're just on completely opposite spectrums here... we'll just have to agree to disagree. Carlos not being retained (for whatever reason) was a retention problem, not a talent problem.

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Okay, let's look at Ozzie and the Ravens last ten first rounders:

2013: Matt Elam - jury's out
2012: no pick
2011: Jimmy Smith - solid CB, successful first rounder IMO. No probowls or similar accolades.
2010: no pick
2009: Michael Oher - solid, not spectacular RT. They wanted him at LT, but he couldn't handle it.
2008: Joe Flacco - they certainly paid him like he was amazing, but there's a lot of doubt about his talent.
2007: Ben Grubbs - all universe guard, awesome pick.
2006: Haloti Ngata - all world NT, amazing pick at 14.
2005: Mark Clayton - so-so, up and down receiver, plagued by injury. Let him walk in 2009 to St. Louis where he was again injury plagued. Out of football.
2004: no pick
2003: Terrell Suggs - all universe, great pick.
Kyle Boller - ummmmmm

By my math, the ravens are batting 750 if you're generous, 500 if you're realistic. Ozzie Smith is regarded as the best GM in football...

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Right, but he also hits on later rounds which is why he has a super bowl.

Our First rounders were the best we got. How many non-first round picks from the vinny era panned out? Almost zero.

In the first round you should get guys you can't miss on (yes, you'll miss from time to time.) We did worse in the first round than many do in later rounds.

Are you really interested in debating the quality of drafting during the Cerrato era? Because that seems to be the route this conversation is going on. I don't think you're going to win :)
 
Right, but he also hits on later rounds which is why he has a super bowl.

Our First rounders were the best we got. How many non-first round picks from the vinny era panned out? Almost zero.

In the first round you should get guys you can't miss on (yes, you'll miss from time to time.) We did worst in the first round than many do in later rounds.

But I was addressing your contention that first round picks were "can't miss." Now you're moving the goal posts. I won't argue that we were terrible in rounds 2-7, outside of a couple lucky picks.

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We're just on completely opposite spectrums here... we'll just have to agree to disagree. Carlos not being retained (for whatever reason) was a retention problem, not a talent problem.

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You don't think it had anything to do with two assclowns in charge thinking the fans' crying about stone hands that couldn't catch an interception were all right?????

Meanwhile everyone with a clue was saying... hey, this guy covers well, and that's his job... if he could catch he'd be a WR...
 
By my math, the ravens are batting 750 if you're generous, 500 if you're realistic. Ozzie Smith is regarded as the best GM in football...

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Ozzie Smith was a great baseball player...incredible how he translated his Hall of Fame career in baseball to GM job in the NFL.
 

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