Redskins Relieve Mike Shanahan of Duties

[fansince62]

Any good GM is going to make mistakes. Certainly Beathard did if you look at high picks like Wally Kleine, Walter Murray and Brian Davis.

BUT, in the end the GM is paid for winning. So, those GMs that counter such mistakes with consequent moves to unearth the pro bowlers and surprise stars to overcome the failures win out.

Beathard and his staff found Grimm in Round 3, Manley in Round 5, Didier in Round 12, McKenzie in Round 11, Gary Clark and Ricky Sanders from the USFL, etc.

The problem with Shanahan as GM is that SO MANY of his moves turned out to be duds. Yes, we picked up Morris and Garcon.

But we also went with McNabb and then Grossman/Beck for 2 years and NONE of these guys was the answer, or even part of the answer. Shanahan personally vouched for Beck.

Jammal Brown was given a $30M contract extension AFTER he came here and showed he had a chronic hip injury that did not resolve itself in TWO years. That was an example of throwing good money after bad.

The Redskins drafted LeRibeus, Gettis and Compton and brought in free agents such as Artis Hicks and Chris Chester, and yet to date the offensive line is still problematic and features former waiver wire pickups and guys that were on other teams' practice squads.

The Redskins traded down to get extra picks and then draft Ryan Kerrigan at #16. Top half of the first round.

While Kerrigan has been a solid player for the most part, he has not been a dominant player in the mold of a DeMarcus Ware or Clay Matthews, other outside backers taken at similar or later spots in Round 1.

The situation at safety has been a joke. It has been four years and counting on finding a combination back there that works.

Shanahan went out and signed OJ Atogwe to play free safety for solid money and he was done. Never made an impact here.

We picked DeJon Gomes (5th round) and while he contributed on special teams was horrible in coverage.

Tanard Jackson never really played here due to pending drug suspensions. Brandon Meriweather was given a $3M bonus despite being a street free agent that had just been cut by Chicago and New England. His play has been uneven and at 29/30 I don't see much upside there.

My point in running down the safeties is that YES a GM can make a mistake or two in finding players at a spot like FS or SS, but in the end you have to find SOMEBODY to do the job!

That is what Shanahan failed at.

Open, festering sores at a number of positions STAYED that way for four seasons.

That is unacceptable.

and he was resource constrained the entire time. I can accept the criticism on some player moves. so what? the BIG deal is what he engineered through his contract with Snyder. that was the number one priority - he knew it. every coaching candidate knew it. the whole league knows it. the journey may have been ugly and painful, but it friggin got done. now we have the semblance of an org structure and roles & responsibilities in place that resembles a more traditional/NFL oriented design. we shall see if it keeps. in my mind - this is the most important outcome out of all of this.

defense? eh. Shanahan tried to force a 3-4 on a team that wasn't built for it. that's where a major part of the problem fell. in all of this...it's simply simple minded...if all will forgive me...to argue along one plane of causality. there were many factors that lined up during these last 4 years that made it exceedingly difficult to stabilize and move forward.

btw...while Shanahan failed at the 3-4 transition..is the argument around here that change should never be attempted? or is that the change was poorly executed?

 

[tshile]

Nice try, you made claims that were proven untrue and I exposed you for it.

As for the disagreements regarding the current state of affairs regarding this team/organization. You have disproved nothing. It is all speculation at this point. We just ended a season at 3-13. I heard many of the same arguments now as I heard when Shanahan was hired...the organization is going in the right direction...blah, blah, blah. I will believe it when I see it. Cap space? We had plenty of Cap space when Shanahan tied up Hall and Fat Al's contracts in one year...we see how that turned out. We have no 1st round pick this year with a team that is devoid of talent. But we have a lot of money to spend of Free Agents! I will respectfully simply agree to disagree there.

I made a joke about him not being able to hit on a first round draft selection. You took it literal and started breaking it down. I miscounted. If you want to claim some victory out of that, so be it.

You've been on your "Shanahan left us worse off than he found us" kick for a few weeks. If you believe that then you're delusional, weren't paying attention, or don't know a damned thing about football.

Take your pick, it doesn't matter which one it is to me.

I'm not engaging in such an utterly stupid conversation any longer. Waste of time.

 

[fansince62]

some folks look through a telescope from the big end, some look through from the small end.

everyone is free to chose!!!

it's the journey folks....not the pit stops.

 

[Boone]

Why do you guys have to personalize these discussions? No one called your wife a fat whore. Relax

Reading all the back and forth, what strikes me is how pathetic it is arguing whether the mess we are currently in is better than the mess we were formerly in. That tells you all you really need to know.

 

[tshile]

some folks look through a telescope from the big end, some look through from the small end.

everyone is free to chose!!!

it's the journey folks....not the pit stops.

you never did give me an answer on that one

 

[Bulldog]

my point is that change for change's sake or change that is not well thought out is as destructive as continuing to hit yourself over the head with the same old hammer

yes, you are correct. the defense needed to improve and the 3-4 defense CAN be a very successful scheme as we have seen in Pittsburgh and more recently Green Bay in their run to the Super Bowl in 2010.

but, again, as we have talked about the talent here in Washington was not 3-4 talent.

and with little depth and a lot of areas to build talent it didn't make sense to deconstruct everything at once and stretch your resources to the breaking point.

One thing I will say about Bruce Allen is that when he was in Oakland and in Tampa he was a staunch opponent to the owners' tendencies to sign free agents to big money contracts.

So, I think a lot of the fiscal austerity you see here and the 'light at the end of the tunnel' in re the cap is directly attributable to his influence over the financial management.

 

[Elephant]

I made a joke about him not being able to hit on a first round draft selection. You took it literal and started breaking it down. I miscounted. If you want to claim some victory out of that, so be it.

You've been on your "Shanahan left us worse off than he found us" kick for a few weeks. If you believe that then you're delusional, weren't paying attention, or don't know a damned thing about football.

Take your pick, it doesn't matter which one it is to me.

I'm not engaging in such an utterly stupid conversation any longer. Waste of time.

Don't know a damned thing about football? Not paying attention...Riiiight. Start the attacks.

If you sit there and try to tell me your "joke" did not have an underlying truth to it in your mind, you are not telling the truth. Yeah, I will say it more clearly...you're lying. Liar! It wasn't a joke, you meant what you said. We all dislike Vinny Cerrato, but you're making claims that history does not support.

Vinny sucked! He was terrible, except he was solid or better about 70% of the time with his 1st round picks. That does not discount how putrid Mike Shanahan has been with his player acquisitions either. PUTRID! Not any better than Vinny! Hits and misses in the draft and free agency! The only difference is that Mike...or Bruce Allen...did not over spend on contracts that his/their predecessors have to clean up.

As for the "worse off" statement, I back tracked and admitted "worse off" was a poor choice, but I will not accept that we are "better off" as you and others wish to believe. Shanahan left this team overall devoid of talent. The only difference is we have more money...but we have/had less picks to build depth.

 

[fansince62]

Al, you keep bringing up that Shanahan is far better than Cerrato at player evaluation when the reality is, the products he's fielded have not proven to be far better than anything Cerrato produced. You keep discussing context...then let's talk about context.

Shanahan as VP in 4 years here had a winning percentage of .375.

Cerrato as VP had a winning percentage of .450

Product on the field shows Vinnie did better here.

I know that is just a number. I know this franchise was not better under Vinnie than Shanahan.

But you keep talking about how much better position this team is in, and I am saying we are right back where we were before we hired Shanahan...looking for a new head coach and restructuring our front office. You demand a statistical formula to prove my assertion, but all you need is to look at the bottom line. We are looking for a new head coach, just like when Zorn was fired.

The differences are promising, we seem to have finally put the proper front office structure in place and we have promising skills players, but it's the same boat. We need a slew of players to fill the voids left behind, only difference, we have more money to do it...which will be needed because we don't have a 1st round pick in the draft.

Yes, again, things are promising with the players we have at the skill positions...Griffin, Morris Garcon, but I don't need metrics you demand to see the terrible position Shanahan put us in while he was here. You yourself keep talking about the lack of quality we have on the current roster. Well, I would suggest we had better quality when Shanahan took over. Shanahan could have done far better with the team he had if he'd done things differently...like not switch to a 3-4. They were just older and placed in a 3-4 defense for which they were not suited. Zorn's squad was aging, yes, but Shanahan dismantled that entire defense...for what? The 31st ranked defense in the NFL?


If you want to say the organization is better off than when Shanahan got here, ok...I can go along. If you say the team is better off. I point you to our record. We are 3-13...when Zorn left he had the same winning percentage that Shanahan had.

please produce one quote where I stated he was better at player evaluation!

the discussion all along - one you precipitated - was that the end state for Cerratto and Shanahan were substantively the same. this was a thought you introduced to attack my notion that Shanahan accomplished some positive things that have moved the franchise forward. it was not exclusively about talent onboard - though I will take the core players Shanahan bequeathed - most especially the QB - over anything Cerratto gifted the Skins with. Haynesworth alone dashes any notion that Cerratto and Shanahan were/are the same. Shanahan, IMO, would never, ever have made that move.

I have to be frank Brian: that you are even entertaining the thought that anyone could parallel the confusion, mismanagement and destruction Vinny wrought is mind blowing!

Shanahan failed. but he hasn't left a completely hosed up franchise that will take years to "fix". his legacy, IMO, will be that he made critical mistakes, but left some key foundational elements that assisted future success. this team can be groomed into competitive status in 2 years IMO - assuming the new coach doesn't bring a totally orthogonal scheme. no way that was in the cards the day after Vinny departed. it was never going to happen until we got a decent QB!!!! we have that now. we also have a boxed in Snyder (at least so it seems from a distance). this team can move forward much faster than it could post Vinny. now...let's see them do it.

 

[tshile]

Don't know a damned thing about football? Not paying attention...Riiiight. Start the attacks.

If you sit there and try to tell me your "joke" did not have an underlying truth to it in your mind, you are not telling the truth. Yeah, I will say it more clearly...you're lying. Liar! It wasn't a joke, you meant what you said. We all dislike Vinny Cerrato, but you're making claims that history does not support.

Vinny sucked! He was terrible, except he was solid or better about 70% of the time with his 1st round picks. That does not discount how putrid Mike Shanahan has been with his player acquisitions either. PUTRID! Not any better than Vinny! Hits and misses in the draft and free agency! The only difference is that Mike...or Bruce Allen...did not over spend on contracts that his/their predecessors have to clean up.

As for the "worse off" statement, I back tracked and admitted "worse off" was a poor choice, but I will not accept that we are "better off" as you and others wish to believe. Shanahan left this team overall devoid of talent. The only difference is we have more money...but we have/had less picks to build depth.

You're pathetic. You understand that, right?

Devoid of talent? Well, that tells me which option it is.

 

[Elephant]

please produce one quote where I stated he was better at player evaluation!

the discussion all along - one you precipitated - was that the end state for Cerratto and Shanahan were substantively the same. this was a thought you introduced to attack my notion that Shanahan accomplished some positive things that have moved the franchise forward. it was not exclusively about talent onboard - though I will take the core players Shanahan bequeathed - most especially the QB - over anything Cerratto gifted the Skins with. Haynesworth alone dashes any notion that Cerratto and Shanahan were/are the same. Shanahan, IMO, would never, ever have made that move.

I have to be frank Brian: that you are even entertaining the thought that anyone could parallel the confusion, mismanagement and destruction Vinny wrought is mind blowing!

In terms of player acquisition, I do not believe Shanahan is any better. Look how devoid of overall talent this team is. The cap issues are one thing, bringing in talent?

How will our RB's handle a different scheme? How have any of Shanahan's RB's fared outside of the ZBS, except Clinton Portis?

How will Robert griffin, whom we lost a lot of picks (probable starters) to acquire, fare under a new head coach?

These are legitimate questions that cannot be answered yet, but you guys all seem to think that we are better off than we were 4 years ago because we're not tied down to poor contracts. That just isn't the metric I was asked to provide for my assertions. You asked me for set of specifics in that regards, yet you simply provide me with one...more money.

For ****'s sake, we just went 3-13 and you're suggesting we're better off than we were 4 years ago when Shanahan got here. I just don't buy it. vinny was putrid, I keep admitting that, but I just don't see how Shanahan has left us better off! He was rather putrid here too and his .375 winning percentage is all the proof I need.

 

[Elephant]

You're pathetic. You understand that, right?

Devoid of talent? Well, that tells me which option it is.

You're a liar and a cherry picker...

Devoid of overall talent is what I said. You obviously think that 6 quality starters with no real depth across the board is not devoid of talent. Makes me question how smart you really think you are.

 

[fansince62]

cmon El.....perhaps you forget that Cerratto was the architect of all the FA signings during his first stint in DC. and how many players he selected are still in the NFL from his second stint? players that you even like? (since we know you don't think much of Landry, Orakpo or Rogers). aside from Sean taylor...who had a lasting impact from any of Vinny's drafts? what I remember was the hugely wasteful pickling of picks like so much candy for FA signings and dumb trades.

the one coach you liked so much - shotty - what was one of the first things he wanted done?

Cerratto is one of the main reasons Shanahan had to be brought in in the first place!!! it was Cerratto's legacy and Snyder's meddling that drove so much of the dynamic. what they did impacted the culture, the team image, the options for new hires...and on down the line. if one were to do an analysis, the problems for this team reach all the way back to the day Jack Kent Cooke's kids assumed leadership. it's been one un-ending series of bad moves - including FEDEX!! - since then. what we live with today has a history. there are multiple villains - if you have to look at it this way - each of whom bounded the opportunities for their successors. it takes time to undo a lot of this -especially the aspects that aren't related to the roster. unfortunately for we fans, the sequence of events led to a new owner who had no clue how to run a football enterprise. he was a marketing savvy character. it's been a long, drawn out process of OJT and personalities to get him off the stick an headed in the right direction. it's still pretty tenuous. but I at least am grateful to Shanahan for his part in shaping/conditioning the owner. Boone is right - it starts at the top. this is where this discussion has been headed all along. IMO, the leopard actually is changing his spots. the process has been painful. the learning curve embarrassingly slow. but we do seem to be hitting one of those critical inflection points.

 

[Elephant]

cmon El.....perhaps you forget that Cerratto was the architect of all the FA signings during his first stint in DC. and how players are still in the NFL from his second stint? players that you even like/ (since we know you don't think much of Landry and Orakpo). aside from Sean taylor...who had a lasting impact from any of Vinny's drafts? what I remember was the hugely wasteful pickling of picks like so much candy for FA signings and dumb trades.

the one coach you liked so much - shotty - what was one of the first things he wanted done?

Cerratto is one of the main reasons Shanahan had to be brought in in the first place!!! it was Cerratto's legacy and Snyder's meddling that drove so much of the dynamic.

And Shanahan was the architect of the Jamaal Brown trade, the Fred Davis franchise tag, the McNabb debacle...

I can play the same game, how many of the acquisitions in Denver are/were still on rosters in the NFL once Shanahan was gone out there?

 

[Boone]

Guys - since you aren't heeding my private request - if I give you infractions you will both get a temp ban. Do you really want that? Now? I am trying to be kind to fellow Redskins fans because you don't want to be excluded from discussions during this coaching search period. If you continue going at each other, I will issue points.

 

[Elephant]

Guys - since you aren't heeding my private request - if I give you infractions you will both get a temp ban. Do you really want that? Now? I am trying to be kind to fellow Redskins fans because you don't want to be excluded from discussions during this coaching search period. If you continue going at each other, I will issue points.

He started it!

 

[Goaldeje]

Boone just pulled his **** out and ended it.

 

[fansince62]

your implicit assumption is that many of the players on hand - including our QB - aren't anything special. there's no arguing that. it's a subjective declaration. I think rookie of the year, leading rusher, etc., etc., separate these players from the teaming masses. Vinny left almost NO ONE. and you hated the ones he left!!

yea...3-13 sucks. so what? the analysis doesn't stop there. this gets tedious. a whole series of causes led to the debacle this season - most especially the QB recovery process.

the argument about viability in a new system isn't interesting - it's not a distinguishing feature since that question applies for ANY transition. btw...it is my understanding that part of the HC selection criteria precisely entails schemes that are suitable to the primary talent on hand.

see things as you like - the team had enough talent to get into the playoffs a scant year ago. it's offense dominated. that's all that mattered for that point in time. it lacked serious depth which killed it on STs (a primary cause of many losing games) this season. no one is arguing there aren't serious gaps....especially on defense.

for the last time: we have a good nucleus. the cupboard isn't barren as it was when Vinny left. we can build on what we have. Vinny's roster had to be almost entirely replaced.

 

[fansince62]

And Shanahan was the architect of the Jamaal Brown trade, the Fred Davis franchise tag, the McNabb debacle...

I can play the same game, how many of the acquisitions in Denver are/were still on rosters in the NFL once Shanahan was gone out there?

go for it! those pale in comparison to the magnitude of what Vinny did! no one will ever, ever top the destructive impact of signing Haynesworth. no one. ever. combine McNabb/Brown and Davis together and they collectively still don't approach the magnitude of the damage and embarrassment brought by the Haynesworth signing.

Vinny will remain the clown prince of all GM time. Shanahan didn't do anything remotely comparable. he had the unpleasant task of trying to un-eff many of Vinny's mistakes. he succeeded in some respects and failed in others. I can buy into a mixed record. for Shanahan. but Vinny? TOTAL FAIL on all levels and all criteria.

 

[tshile]

Guys - since you aren't heeding my private request - if I give you infractions you will both get a temp ban. Do you really want that? Now? I am trying to be kind to fellow Redskins fans because you don't want to be excluded from discussions during this coaching search period. If you continue going at each other, I will issue points.

I'm not the one that continues after getting your message.

 

[tshile]

go for it! those pale in comparison to the magnitude of what Vinny did! no one will ever, ever top the destructive impact of signing Haynesworth. no one. ever. combine McNabb/Brown and Davis together and they collectively still don't approach the magnitude of the damage and embarrassment brought by the Haynesworth signing.

Vinny will remain the clown prince of all GM time. Shanahan didn't do anything remotely comparable. he had the unpleasant task of trying to un-eff many of Vinny's mistakes. he succeeded in some respects and failed in others. I can buy into a mixed record. for Shanahan. but Vinny? TOTAL FAIL on all levels and all criteria.

I'd be curious how he stacks up against Millen. I never followed Detroit close enough to know. Not sure it really matters though