The Pet Thread

I actually paid a dog trainer to come over to my house the other night. Great credentials--head of the K9 unit in Scotland Yard for 25 years. Teaching dogs how to sniff bombs and find drugs.

Anyway, it was eye-opening to say the least. He taught me several things quickly, and shot down some myths too. I'll share a few:

1. Your dog's mouth is not that clean. Far from it. He laughs at those who share ice cream cones with their dogs.

2. 95% of dog food is bad for your dog. The biggest culprits? Anything you can find at major supermarkets, and specifically Iams, from vets. Their main ingredient is corn, which turns into sugar, and it's akin to giving your baby candy before bed. Iams pays vets to recommend their food, and they wrap it in the color white to make it look clinical.

3. Wonder why your dog kisses you? It's not a show of affection. Instead, he/she wants you to regurgitate food into their mouth.

And best of all? 99% of any type of bad behavior can be fixed nearly instantly, and he has a crazy business because of it.
 
3. Wonder why your dog kisses you? It's not a show of affection. Instead, he/she wants you to regurgitate food into their mouth.

I call bull**** on this one, lol. Its a dog, not a baby bird!

This dude may know how to handle dogs, but he's way off on that one.
 
I call bull**** on this one, lol. Its a dog, not a baby bird!

This dude may know how to handle dogs, but he's way off on that one.

He's really not. We think of dogs as humans, which of course they aren't.

They descend finally from wolves. And that's where it comes from.
 
He's really not. We think of dogs as humans, which of course they aren't.

They descend finally from wolves. And that's where it comes from.

Wolves lick each others' mouths to determine if they've eaten recently, and see if there's a food source nearby. They also lick to be submissive, its a way to submit to the pack leader. Its not to get the other wolf to vomit in their mouth, lol.
 
It's for several reasons....in the wild, a dog or wolf will regurgitate into the mouth of their babies.

It's not for affection. It's not a kiss.
 
It's for several reasons....in the wild, a dog or wolf will regurgitate into the mouth of their babies.

It's not for affection. It's not a kiss.

Not always, but sometimes it is about affection.

It could also be out of anxiety. It could also be submission. It could also be because you taste good (lotion, sweat, etc.). There are many reasons.
 
And the bad mouthing of Iams continues - because some guy said...
 
In all honesty, I'll trust my vet who has the education (Purdue and Cornell) and experience (since 1987). She specializes in cats only and has already hooked me up with the same kind of vet in Memphis.

Bengals and Savannahs are far different than the average domesticated cat. Far different. After learning from her and numerous breeders (both breeds), I can assure you that Ricky is just fine with what he receives.

I had a cat for eighteen years (Pudge) and he did just fine with what the vet recommended for him.

No offense to anyone here. I will give Ricky the best and I am sure that each pet owner here will do the same for their pet.
 
In all honesty, I'll trust my vet who has the education (Purdue and Cornell) and experience (since 1987). She specializes in cats only and has already hooked me up with the same kind of vet in Memphis.

Bengals and Savannahs are far different than the average domesticated cat. Far different. After learning from her and numerous breeders (both breeds), I can assure you that Ricky is just fine with what he receives.

I had a cat for eighteen years (Pudge) and he did just fine with what the vet recommended for him.

No offense to anyone here. I will give Ricky the best and I am sure that each pet owner here will do the same for their pet.

Well, they pay the vets to recommend it, so that explains that. :)

Its corn-based...it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to realize corn-based food is not great for cats. They are carnivores & hunters in nature - cat need MEAT!

I don't think anyone is inferring that your a bad cat owner or anything like that, but I would recommend doing some research on cat nutrition and don't accept your vet's word as gospel on the subject. I'm sure we all want the same thing - a long, fruitful life for Ricky. :)
 
She does not take pay from any pet food company - ditto for the vet here in Memphis.

Look, I appreciate the concern from everyone - seriously. All of us love our pets and they are a part of the family. Mine is the head of the family it seems. :)
 
BB....Iams pays vets. They will even pay office expenses and startup costs.

That's why their food is in there.
 
And the bad mouthing of Iams continues - because some guy said...

Some guy? I would question anyone on the internet....even someone who spends years at shelters.

This guy however, is one of the top 5 in the United States. Some of his credentials:


Police Long service & good conduct Medal

Queens Golden Jubilee Medal

CDT, IACP, IEDDA, BIPDT, PCSA FLECA, BPSCA, IPWDA, LSO (UK Counter Terrorist)

See below for full description of associations.

Certified dog trainer

Certified Dog Behaviorist

Certified Police K9 handler (Patrol & Explosives detection)

Certified Police K9 Supervisor (Patrol, explosives, Narcotics)

Working dog efficiency & Quality assurance examiner

Working dog trials Judge

High Court K9 Expert witness

International Lecturer (Tactical use of K9 for SWAT)

Owner Pawfection Dog Training UK (until 2010)

Owner Pawfection Dog Training LLC USA (Current)

Tactical K9 Advisor for British Royal family & British Government

International lecturer – (Dog safety / Owner obligations and responsibilities)

Service Dog Trainer

Service Dog examiner/ evaluator

Self defense & defensive weapons Instructor

Vet recommended & Approved

28 years dog training and handling experience

http://www.pawfectiondogtraining.com/about-us/
 
In all honesty, I'll trust my vet who has the education (Purdue and Cornell) and experience (since 1987). She specializes in cats only and has already hooked me up with the same kind of vet in Memphis.

Bengals and Savannahs are far different than the average domesticated cat. Far different. After learning from her and numerous breeders (both breeds), I can assure you that Ricky is just fine with what he receives.

I had a cat for eighteen years (Pudge) and he did just fine with what the vet recommended for him.

No offense to anyone here. I will give Ricky the best and I am sure that each pet owner here will do the same for their pet.

http://petfoodtalk.com/catfoodreviews/iams-cat-food/
http://www.askthecatdoctor.com/iamscatfood.html
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/pets/iams.html
http://cats.about.com/cs/catfood/a/whyfussfood.htm

http://www.twodogbarkery.com/articles/designer_chow.html
Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow
----- By TARA PARKER-POPE
THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, MONDAY NOVEMBER 3, 1997

NEW YORK - Shopping at a pet store here, Meredith Kane grabs a 4-pound bag of Hill's science Diet. At $9, it is nearly double the price of cat food sold in supermarkets. But Ms. Kane is unswerving in her devotion to this "designer" brand for her cats, Cecily, Oscar, Kit Kai and A.J.

Why? "My vet recommends it," she says.

Every year, millions of people spend a total of $9.4 billion on pet food - and many, like Ms. Kane, choose brands solely on a veterinarian's recommendation. Over examining tables across the country, more pet doctors lately are trashing trusted brand names like Purina and Kal-Kan, calling them "junk food," and directing people to shell out an extra $20 or so for a month's supply of super-premium "high science" foods.

The biggest beneficiaries: Hill's Science Diet lines, made by toothpaste giant Colgate-Palmolive Co., and Eukanuba and Iams brands from Iams Co. of Dayton, Ohio. Sold only through pet stores and veterinary clinics, the designer brands pack more calories per bite and promise higher-quality ingredients based on "pioneering research in animal nutrition" tailored to a pet's "life stage" or age.

The result: Vet suggestions ringing in their ears, many pet owners have switched brands - and the life-stage category has amassed a Doberman-sized $2 billion chunk of the market.

But few pet owners know just how far premium-market-leader Hill's has gone to sew up the vet endorsements.

'Vets Trust Them'

Borrowing a page from the pharmaceuticals companies, which routinely woo doctors to prescribe their drugs, Hill's has spent a generation cultivating its professional following. It spends hundreds of thousands of dollars a year funding university research and nutrition courses at every one of the 27 U.S. veterinary colleges. Once in practice, vets who sell Science Diet and other premium foods directly from their offices pocket profits of as much as 40%.

" Vets trust them," says Janil Norris, a fresh graduate of the School of Veterinary Medicine at the University of California, Davis. While she was in school, a Hill's program allowed the struggling student to pay just $3 a bag for a special prescription brand for her cat, Buffalo Sean. A bag normally runs about $25. She also received a small stipend, courtesy of the Hill's program, to study orthopedic surgery with a Los Angeles vet. "Hill's was just always around," she adds.

A little too much, perhaps, for makers of supermarket brands. During the past five years, Hill's sales have surged more than 20%, and now make up an 8% share of the market - half that of No. 1 Ralston Purina Co., according to Davenport & Co. in Richmond Va. For the same period, sales of pet-food giant Ralston grew 11% but its market share fell one percentage point; sales at Mars Inc.'s Kal-Kan unit tumbled 28% and its share slipped three percentage points.

Nabbin Tabby Early

Hill's marketing strategy is especially potent since pets are among the world's most loyal consumers. Nabbing Tabby early is critical: once a pet takes to a particular brand, a later switch can sometimes cause gastrointestinal troubles; and because a lot of felines are finicky about the look of their vittles, many brands come in distinct shapes, like X's and triangles. Since almost everyone asks their vets what to start feeding a new pet, Hill's cleverly has managed to steer billions its way with that all-important early recommendation.

By chasing after the nation's 126 million cats and dogs through the backdoor of vet offices, Hill's has emerged as a crown jewel at Colgate. Hill's sales - which last year were nearly $900 million, up from $40 million 15 years ago - reflect the power of word-of-mouth marketing. While some competitors spent between $40 million and $90 million each to advertise last year, according to Davenport, Hill's paid $1.9 million. Chicken feed.

Part of the Family

" The bulk of our expenditure goes to the veterinary community," says John Steel, who just retired as Colgate's senior vice president of global marketing and sales. The company won't reveal its marketing and promotions budget. He adds: "It's just like taking drugs: You go to the doctor and he prescribes something for you and you don't much question what the doctor says. It's the same with animals." Pet-food marketers also say the rise of high-science vittles has to do with American consumers' obsession with their own health. "People think of pets as an extension of the family," says Robert C. Wheeler, Hill's chief executive.

But the reliance on vet endorsements has its critics. "Consumers think they're getting a better product because veterinarians are recommending it," says Ann Martin, author of a new book, "Foods Pets Die For, " She notes that many pet doctors are "brainwashed into thinking they have to recommend these commercial foods," having been so heavily exposed to them in vet schools. Adds Francis Kafifelz, professor of nutrition at Cornell University's School of Veterinary Medicine in Ithaca, N.Y., "I've never seen any research to prove animals fed premium products all their lives have fared better than animals fed standard products." More definitive research would require "a lot of animals and a lot of time," he says, and it is too early to say there is one best pet food." Despite that, he feeds his golden retriever Hill's Prescription Diet.

Science and Sales

Pet-food marketers insist it is science, not salesmanship, that ultimately sways many of the estimated 36,000 small-animal veterinarians in the U.S.

At the Hill's research center in Topeka, Kan., scientists proudly point to Cocoa and Brandy, two 18-month-old Labrador retrievers. Since she was a pup, Cocoa has munched only Hill's products, while Brandy ate a Brand X food that Hill's won't name. Brandy is fat and has a dull coat. Cocoa is bright-eyed and slim, with a lustrous coat. "The products do what we say they do," Mr. Wheeler says. "We're not selling dog food. We're selling nutrition."

Makers of supermarket pet foods disagree. Ralston Purina, which now sells two premium lines and is reaching out more to veterinarians, says even its lower-priced foods such as Dog Chow and Puppy Chow provide the same basic nutrients as the super-premium brands. "What you're hearing from veterinarians might be colored somewhat by the products they have for sale," says Larry McDaniel, a vet himself, and Ralston's director of veterinary marketing.

But Hill's has a long history with the veterinary community. Hill's Pet Nutrition was founded in 1948 by Kansas veterinarian Mark Morris, who, in his own kitchen, cooked up a special diet for treating kidney problems in dogs; 20 years later the company introduced its Science Diet brand, touted as a healthier alternative than the table scraps commonly used or low-priced foods sold in supermarkets.

The company - which never was more than a niche player in pet food and began to diversify into other pet products, such as flea shampoos and sprays - was acquired by Colgate in 1976, when Hill's was part of Houston-based Riviana Foods. Several years later when Colgate, of New York, decided to shed all noncore business and put Hill's on the block, a senior executive named Reuben Mark, who would later become Colgate's chairman, argued to keep the fledgling company.

" I was struck by the similarity of our world-wide toothpaste business, with the endorsement of the dentists being so important," Mr. Mark says. "I knew if we did the same thing with Hill's, it could be an enormous global brand."

So, similar to Colgate's spadework in dental schools, Hill's now funds a nutrition professorship in nearly half of the nation's vet schools. Hill's employees wrote a widely-used textbook on small-animal nutrition that is distributed for free to students. Hill's also sends practicing veterinarians to seminars on wringing more profit from clinics and offers the only formal nutrition-certification program for clinic technicians. In a savvy marketing coup now being copied by other pet-food companies, Hill's each year donates tons of free food for the pets of cash-strapped veterinary students.

Hill's also beefed up its sales force, which has grown to more than 500 people from just 16 in the early 1980s, including many who are vets. Outside universities, Hill's is believed to be the country's single largest employer of veterinarians. One is Tony Rumschlag, a territory manager for Hill's in Indianapolis. Last month, he arrived at the Post Pet Hospital armed with framed posters to hang on walls, post-it notes for the reception desk and free samples of Hill's dog treats for the clientele.

Weight Watchers

" Dr. Tony" headed for Exam Room Three, where he met with hospital veterinarian Scot Harbin to talk about recommending Hill's diet foods for the fat cats and pudgy dogs that visit the clinic. Today, Hill's is launching a special two-month promotion to pay the clinic $3 per animal it puts on a diet. "We're offering a bounty to get pets on a weight-management program," Dr. Rumschlag says.

Dr. Harbin likes the idea, and sets a goal of putting one dog and one cat on a diet each day. The money raised might be used to host a pizza party or even dinner at a fancy restaurant for the staff, he says.

Later, Dr. Harbin concedes that for years Hill's "sort of had a lock on the veterinary market." But now, he says, competition has increased. "At 12:30, -the Eukanuba rep is coming in to give her spiel," he says.

Dr. Rumschiag moves on to the Broad Ripple Animal Clinic, where he hands over 200 custom-printed coupons for pet owners to receive a discount on Hill's food. He also pledges about $1,200 worth of free puppy and kitten food, about 175 bags, to dole out to new pet owners who visit. Not only will the help the clinic sell more food, but the coupons could help get pet owners back into the clinic for a checkup, he figures.

David Brunner, who owns the hospital, says the marketing push sometimes makes him uneasy and adds that he is careful to tell clients they can always find the same foods at the pet store. "I don't want to be perceived as a food salesman," he says. "We don't want it to enter clients' minds that "Oh, you're just trying to sell me dog food."

Junk-Food Diet

Yet he and other vets say they are convinced premium foods are far better than cheaper brands. One doctor compared using cheaper supermarket pet foods to feeding a child potato chips and pizza every day. Dr. Kallfelz of Cornell says the basic ingredients in most pet foods are the same, but the difference lies in the amount, quality and concentration of ingredients. In general, he says, standard foods have a higher concentration of vegetable proteins, while premium foods have a higher concentration of animal proteins. Premium foods are generally the same from bag to bag, while the formulation of standard foods can change, depending on market prices for ingredients.

But Dr. Brunner says his trust in Hill's products stems mainly from the success he has had in treating animals with urinary tract infections, kidney disease and other problems with the specially blended Hill's Prescription Diet foods. The diets can only be prescribed by veterinarians and are more than twice the price of supermarket foods.

Other pet-food makers that have launched their own premium brands, including Purina's Pro Plan and Mars's Waltham brand, have also tailored their products to tempt vets. Ralston Purina, for instance, offers 13 "therapeutic" diets, which can only be prescribed by vets, to compete with Hill's popular Prescription Diet brand. The company also now has free food programs at a handful of U.S. veterinary colleges, and this year "significantly increased" its veterinary-marketing budget to provide coupons for vet students to receive big discounts on Purina foods.

To compete with Hill's stature in vet schools, Purina last year announced a $550,000 endowment for a professorship in small-animal nutrition at the University of Missouri-Columbia College of Veterinary Medicine in Columbia, Mo. The company also provided a $175,000 grant to the American College of Veterinary Nutrition to develop a "noncommercial" nutrition curriculum for all vet schools to follow.

'Share of Mind'

" We feel strongly if the playing field is leveled in the veterinary colleges, it will go a long way toward unbiased education, and it will only benefit us," says Purina's Dr. McDaniel. "We feel we're making significant inroads into 'share of mind' of the veterinarian."

Not to leave anything to chance, the company is hoping to grab a share of consumers' minds. In new ads for a blend of Purina One, a dog visiting a neighbor's house prefers the Purina One food served up there. The reason? The main ingredient is lamb, the ad says, tastier than the corn in that "designer dog food."

For its part, Mars has hired a public-relations firm to tout its Waltham pet-nutrition-research center in England, and is running ads saying its foods are "developed by vets" at the research facility. Last year, Mars spent $50 million on advertising - a 50% jump from 1995, according to Davenport.

The rivals are clearly nipping on Hill's heels. New York vet Harold Zweighaft says a sales call from a Purina representative persuaded him to start stocking Purina food along with Hill's. "Now I have as much Purina as I do Hill's" he says. When New York interior designer Christiane Lernieux got her frisky Labrador pup Jake six months ago, she was all too happy to snap up some Eukanuba Lamb & Rice, on her vet's recommendation. "It has coat enhancers," she says, stroking jake's smooth amber fur. "My vet says it's the highest quality brand."
 
<Sigh>

Ever own a bengal or savannah? Article from 1997? Do you think I have done zero research on this subject?
 
<Sigh>

Ever own a bengal or savannah? Article from 1997? Do you think I have done zero research on this subject?

Not playing a blame game here I just think you have been misled hence I posted links for you to read including to a bengal cat forums. You can make up your own oppinion but I want you to be informed.

I was a Vet Tech for years so I know how Vets get kick backs etc to push foods. Even my Holistic Vet makes me bring in the labels for all of my foods as there is no way a Vet can keep up with all the foods out there.

http://www.savannahcatchat.com/forums/savannah-cat-diet/

Honestly a raw diet would be best for both of your cats due to the breed
 
With all due respect, these are forums and discussions that I have known about for a long time. Will a competitor come in and bad mouth a company? Yes, that is a rhetorical question. Remember when a Microsoft Rep. registered at ES to answer a computer question in a thread a few years ago? Forums are forums.

I respect the education and time that you spent as a tech. Likewise, I respect the vet who has an Ivy League and Big Ten education. Again, stop trying to imply that she gets kickbacks - you don't know her or the business that she owns and operates.

You are more than welcome to bring these foods down here to Memphis and give it a try - even with slow mixing at first. We'll see how Ricky responds. I already know the answer, but we can give it an honest try. LMK.
 
Um I don't work for pet food companies. It is just a passion of mine that I have learned through research and trial and error. I just want people to be informed as there is no such thing as too much knowledge and I don't want anyone to feel the guilt I do with Huly as I caused most of his issues. Allergies from bad foods and he caught FVR from a vaccine I approved him to receive.
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Christie, I deal with MS on a daily basis and had to move to a new location. I don't blame anyone or anything - it just happened and now I have a great medical team that helps to deal with it on a full-time schedule. I don't want or need anyone to go on some sort of crusade for me - that stuff is taken care of and I trust the team that is in place. I don't mind if someone offers advice. If it has any kind of merit, I pass it along to the doctors. More often than not, they shoot it down - not because the advice was wrong for some, but it didn't fit what I am dealing with each day.

With that in mind, offering advice is fine. Stopping just short of saying that I am killing Ricky or treating him horribly is over the top. Accusing my vet of the same is over the top too. How you or anyone else chooses to feed their animals is strictly your/their business. I recall a conversation with my vet two years ago about how some humans live to be more than 100 years of age, but eat and drink the same things that others do - they just have better genes for the most part. Other humans can take a very healthy approach to their lifestyles, but one ailment can end a life at age 60 or 70. She explained that animals are the same way.

Remember Knut? Undoubtedly, he had great care at the zoo. However, he died at a very young age. Something wasn't right from the day he was born and that is probably why his mother abandoned him. Obviously, that had nothing to do with his diet.

Look, I'm not saying that we should feed our pets table scraps or foods that no one would give them. Given my situation, Ricky is probably the last pet I'll own - well, he owns me and that is another story entirely. I spent many months studying bengals and savannahs, but still claim to be nothing of an expert on them. They are very different, but a lot of fun. Let's just hope that all of our pets have a long life and continue to bring us a lot of love and joy.
 
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