ESPN Redskin Name Article

[Elephant]

It's off-season and they are trying to drum up ratings or site hits... This will go nowhere. Dan Snyder is simply too stubborn and too much of a fan of the Redskins!

 

[Boone]

Maybe, maybe not. Snyder grew up a fan. He's going to have the same reaction to this as your typical Redskins fan I suspect. He's not going to want to change the name unless he absolutely is forced to. I have no doubt they've got contingency plans if he's somehow forced to do it. But I doubt he relishes it as a chance to make more money. If he did, he could have made the change long ago.

I also think the 'big payday' may be a myth. If the Redskins changed their name, my impulse isn't to run out an buy anything with the new name on it. In fact, my impulse is exactly the opposite of that - it could take a long while for fans to finally give up and succumb to a new name. So Im not sure I buy the idea that sales of 'stuff' will skyrocket. I don't think Im that atypical when it comes to Redskins fans. There are also huge costs when it comes to changing a corporate name, btw.

 

[Boone]

I won't argue any of that, although I do think it would take years for Redskins fans to embrace a new name to the point they want to buy merchandise. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I can't really even imagine my team having a different name - it's hard for me to get my mind around.

 

[Taylor 36]

At some point, I hope that fans pull their head's out of their asses and stop trying to make Snyder out to be this money-grabbing antichrist who has no regard for the team or fans. In reality, the facts completely dispute this hate agenda driven BS.

Snyder did not invest in this team to lose money and go bankrupt, so of course he is going to try to make it as profitable as possible; that doesn't make him the ass that some make him out to be. The prices he charges for parking, tickets, concessions, etc. are completely on par with the prices/charges of every other NFL team in conjunction with their market and location. However, Snyder puts more money back into the team, players, coaches, than anyone else in the league, with one possible exception being Jerry Jones.

He bought this team for one reason and one reason only: he and his father are/were life-long, die-hard fans of the Washington REDSKINS. He has already spent tons of money defending the name, and he will not change the name unless he is 100% forced to do so by law. The NFL doesn't have the power to force the name change, and with his relationship with the other owners, there is no doubt that Snyder would fight them out of the own team ownership before allowing them to try and tell him what his franchise can and can't be named.

The whole idea that a few left-wing fascist PC goons are on a crusade to make the Native American community believe they should be offended by the name Redskins is not unbelievable. Thinking that Snyder would allow that to happen to the team he grew up loving and bonding with his father over IS not only unbelievable, but just plain ignorant.

 

[McD5]

The whole idea that a few left-wing fascist PC goons are on a crusade to make the Native American community believe they should be offended by the name Redskins is not unbelievable. Thinking that Snyder would allow that to happen to the team he grew up loving and bonding with his father over IS not only unbelievable, but just plain ignorant.

Dan's antics have been discussed for years. There's no sense in going over all of them again. I believe most will agree that he has made great progress.

Your last paragraph is the most eye-raising.

It sounds a lot like a bunch of the nonsense that people down here used to say about the confederate flag.

If it ever hits the Fox pregame show, it will then be picked up by the late night comedians, and it will become a national issue that will bring change quickly.

Dan's not stupid. If it gets to the point where he is being ridiculed, we'll have a new name.

 

[Boone]

Dan's antics have been discussed for years. There's no sense in going over all of them again. I believe most will agree that he has made great progress.

Your last paragraph is the most eye-raising.

It sounds a lot like a bunch of the nonsense that people down here used to say about the confederate flag.

If it ever hits the Fox pregame show, it will then be picked up by the late night comedians, and it will become a national issue that will bring change quickly.

Dan's not stupid. If it gets to the point where he is being ridiculed, we'll have a new name.

I believe you're right MCD5. One of the most curious things about America in 2013 is that the facts, the truth, and reality often don't drive outcomes. In doesn't matter if the vast majority of those with Native American heritage could care less about the Redskins moniker. If there is enough media and politically-correct driven pressure, Snyder will not be able to ignore it.

I agree with you that those who 'defend' the Confederate Flag are misguided. When it comes to that symbol, the horrible history the symbol represents to the majority of African Americans trumps someones right to harken back sentimentally to Dixie and their beloved Old South. If I really thought even a significant % of those with Native American roots were offended by our team name, I'd be calling for a name change myself. I just don't believe that to be the case.

That'll be my last post on the topic. It'll either happen or it won't. Like most things in life, how I 'feel' about it really doesn't matter much.

 

[Taylor 36]

Dan's antics have been discussed for years. There's no sense in going over all of them again. I believe most will agree that he has made great progress.

Your last paragraph is the most eye-raising.

It sounds a lot like a bunch of the nonsense that people down here used to say about the confederate flag.

If it ever hits the Fox pregame show, it will then be picked up by the late night comedians, and it will become a national issue that will bring change quickly.

Dan's not stupid. If it gets to the point where he is being ridiculed, we'll have a new name.

The last paragraph is entirely true. Either try refuting it with facts, or don't, but stop trying to compare it to something that has no basis in this conversation.

And, Dan has been ridiculed for years by fans, the media, etc., and people still want to complain about how long it took him to change the structure of the front office. Now, you want to believe that people are going to hurt his feelings into changing the team's name? Really?

 

[Shi no Tenshi]

I just look at all the media coverage and such this is getting right now and wonder: what would it be like if people put this sort of energy and money into actually helping people for real? Imagine all the good that could be done by actually directing that energy towards something useful.

Also, I'm pretty sure I would enjoy punching Mike Wise in the face.

 

[Taylor 36]

Also, I'm pretty sure I would enjoy punching Mike Wise in the face.

I'm pretty sure you'd have to wait in line.

 

[TomE]

From Mark Maske of the WPost.

Daniel Snyder owns the Washington Redskins, but even he couldn’t change the team’s name without a complicated, and possibly lengthy, process that might include winning approval from both the NFL and some of its many sponsors, according to experts on the way the nation’s most prosperous sports league conducts its affairs.

The financial stakes in such a move by one of pro football’s most valuable franchises would be considerable for the 32 NFL owners, who have a revenue-sharing agreement that covers much of the more than $9 billion the league generates annually.....

more to read at the link.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

I'm a little late to the party (out of town all weekend), but here are my thoughts on the OTL piece.

I get annoyed by the way outlets like OTL are covering this - they pick a random blogger, clearly out of his element, and get him to defend the name. Not Native Americans who are actually fans of the team - by Ryman & Shi No's accounts they are not few and far between - some guy who runs a blog that's not even top 5, probably. Dan Graziano blocked me on Twitter because I was trying to pass on Shi No & Ryman's points of view for him to report.

They also say the HogsHaven article was a push FOR the name change, which is also a mischaracterization; the HH article was 5 reasons why Redskins fans should not be upset if it DOES change. At least, that's how I took it.

And to say the Redskins are "in a class of their own" in terms of offense is just plain silly, and poor journalism. Shows no common sense. The "Tomahawk chop," the cartoon Indian in Cleveland, all the Native American imagery at use for other franchises - come on now.

I also see the point of changing the meaning of the name from a racial epithet to something benign, honoring the team and a culture. The problem is, its really hard to go the other way. Once a word has a negative connotation, it is what it is. McD5 made a great point about the other names that would have already been changed.

I don't know...at this point I'm with Boone - its either going to happen, or its not. Its really hard to ignore the racist history of the team under Marshall when looking at context of the name change; but at the same time, the name is no longer a racial slur. But, its either going to happen or its not - if it does, I will still root for them just like always. And I don't think anyone else on this page will be switching team affiliations any time soon if the name changes either. We don't even have to change the name of the website!

 

[TomE]

Presuming that name and colors don't both change

 

[CounterTrey]

My problem with your last paragraph Lanky is there hasn't really been any substantiation that it's ever actually been a slur, certainly not of ubiquitous use. People like to say that because it makes sense that it would have been but actual history doesn't seem to back that up. The Smithsonian Linguistic head's study pretty much establishes the myth of that as a pejorative and Tenshi and Ryman both gave examples of the use of "dirty Indian" as an explanation why that's NOT pejorative but the "dirty" label that is. And I don't care how uneducated or unaware of their ancestry they might be as youth's of today's America, I have a hard time believing it was ever seen as such a slur if it's such a popular name for NA teams to name themselves. It makes zero sense whatsoever.

That's my biggest beef with this whole thing...the laissez faire approach taken with facts and the truth is beyond the pale. Susan Harjo doesn't get to revise history no matter how hard she tries. Yes scalping was offensive and barbaric but her connection is a reach of epic proportions. Furthermore I see Marshall's open racism against blacks and I'm sure he was a bigot across the board but where is all the evidence of this team's racist history against NA's? Am I missing something here?

 

[Taylor 36]

I don't know...at this point I'm with Boone - its either going to happen, or its not. Its really hard to ignore the racist history of the team under Marshall when looking at context of the name change; but at the same time, the name is no longer a racial slur. But, its either going to happen or its not - if it does, I will still root for them just like always. And I don't think anyone else on this page will be switching team affiliations any time soon if the name changes either. We don't even have to change the name of the website!

The problem is that Marshal not wanting African Americans to play on his team and the name Redskins have no connection or correlation, and anyone trying to suggest that they do is simply reaching. Redskins was the name decided upon because of our Native American head coach at the time, and because the team would be playing in Fenway, sharing a home with the Red Sox. There was nothing derogatory, prejudicial, or racist behind the choosing of the name Redskins.

Furthermore, if people want to stretch and reach and use some one's thoughts/prejudices in a completely different arena with a completely different racial group to find fault in something completely separate and benign that that person was involved with, then we should really be up in arms for changing the name Volkswagen. After all, it was the idea and creation of Adolf Hitler, someone much more prejudiced and vile than Marshal, and the car's name means the Peoples' Car, and those "people" or "volks" were 100% German WASP's only. Not Catholics, Jews, blacks, Hispanics, gypsies, Indians, Arabs,etc. None of those groups fell under the title of "People." Now, the name Volkswagen is offensive and should be stricken from the industry along with it's offensive VW trademark symbol, right? (No, I'm not at all offended by the name of a car manufacturer, because being so would be just as silly as being offended by the name of a football team, even though the football was not at all intended to be derogatory while the name of the car was).

 

[Lanky Livingston]

That's my biggest beef with this whole thing...the laissez faire approach taken with facts and the truth is beyond the pale. Susan Harjo doesn't get to revise history no matter how hard she tries. Yes scalping was offensive and barbaric but her connection is a reach of epic proportions. Furthermore I see Marshall's open racism against blacks and I'm sure he was a bigot across the board but where is all the evidence of this team's racist history against NA's? Am I missing something here?

The problem is that Marshal not wanting African Americans to play on his team and the name Redskins have no connection or correlation, and anyone trying to suggest that they do is simply reaching. Redskins was the name decided upon because of our Native American head coach at the time, and because the team would be playing in Fenway, sharing a home with the Red Sox. There was nothing derogatory, prejudicial, or racist behind the choosing of the name Redskins.

Except you two are missing the forest for the trees. This was a guy who would use a racial slur for the Native American. Yes, if someone is very racist against blacks, there's a good probability that he was racist against others. He may have not thought twice about using the name Redskin, as he would not have cared if it were offensive or not. Sometimes, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its a duck. I think trying to defend a known racist by saying its only documented that he was racist against black people is a bit naive.

As far as the name Volkswagon, I don't see the connection to the present discussion. Pretty big stretch, IMO.

Look; I know this position is not a popular one, but then again so was desegregation. Sometimes these things look better in hindsight. Yes, changing the name to a non-offensive moniker won't necessarily help the Native American, but the perception that its just okay to use it does hurt them, IMO. There are a lot of hard questions that we'll never get the answer too. And whether or not the name changes, we'll still root as fervently; so I guess I'm just in the camp that does not see the huge deal about it.

 

[Elephant]

My problem with your last paragraph Lanky is there hasn't really been any substantiation that it's ever actually been a slur, certainly not of ubiquitous use. People like to say that because it makes sense that it would have been but actual history doesn't seem to back that up. The Smithsonian Linguistic head's study pretty much establishes the myth of that as a pejorative and Tenshi and Ryman both gave examples of the use of "dirty Indian" as an explanation why that's NOT pejorative but the "dirty" label that is. And I don't care how uneducated or unaware of their ancestry they might be as youth's of today's America, I have a hard time believing it was ever seen as such a slur if it's such a popular name for NA teams to name themselves. It makes zero sense whatsoever.

That's my biggest beef with this whole thing...the laissez faire approach taken with facts and the truth is beyond the pale. Susan Harjo doesn't get to revise history no matter how hard she tries. Yes scalping was offensive and barbaric but her connection is a reach of epic proportions. Furthermore I see Marshall's open racism against blacks and I'm sure he was a bigot across the board but where is all the evidence of this team's racist history against NA's? Am I missing something here?

I gotta agree with the idea that Marshall's racism plays no role in the current issue with the Redskins name. All that does is dredge up a past that suggests the organization has been racist from inception but Marshall has been dead almost...what, 50 years?

CT, I'd like to see a link from the linguist's conclusions. I am not questioning you, I would like to use the source to shove in the faces of others who are giving me grief as a Redskins fan because of the name since it's all abuzz right now.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

you're reaching here with "if he did this he most likely would do that". is there any proof he made comments against Native Americans?

Is there any proof that he didn't? The only proof he did (as far as I know) is the circumstantial evidence that he was a racist who was pro-segregation. Generally speaking, racism at the time was not limited to just black people. Its not a watertight case, just the conclusion I have to come to. If someone told me that Marshall was all sunshine and roses to all other races, I'd be extremely skeptical, but that's just me.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

just like in court you have to prove he DID it..not the other way around. there are plenty of choosy racists who dont like black people but have no issues with other races.

Right, but this is not a court of justice, this is the court of public opinion. And in that court, circumstantial evidence is not only admissible, but often all you have to go on.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Mike, I do have circumstantial evidence. But its obvious we are never going to agree, so I'm going to bow out.

 

[Taylor 36]

Except you two are missing the forest for the trees.

I actually appears that you are the one missing the point, though it seems like maybe you are purposely trying not to see it.

This was a guy who would use a racial slur for the Native American. .

And how many times did you personally hangout with Marshall? How good of friends were you with him? There is nothing to suggest that Marshall had a problem with with Native Americans. For you to say otherwise is completely ridicules, egotistical, and self-serving on your part to fulfill your own pseudo racist agenda.

Yes, if someone is very racist against blacks, there's a good probability that he was racist against others.

Where the hell do you come up with this stuff? Seriously, a short study in Sociology and the Psychology of Prejudice and Discrimination is all that is needed to know that you are entirely incorrect. The vast majority (over 97%) of all people with prejudices hold them against one racial or ethnic group.

He may have not thought twice about using the name Redskin, as he would not have cared if it were offensive or not.

Interesting, considering it was NOT an offensive term, even in the early 1930's.

Sometimes, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its a duck. I think trying to defend a known racist by saying its only documented that he was racist against black people is a bit naive..

Your entire post is naive and filled with ignorance. Sometimes if it looks like a troll, squats like a troll,...

As far as the name Volkswagon, I don't see the connection to the present discussion. Pretty big stretch, IMO..

That was exactly the point I was making in that post. I said as much; no interpretation or analysis was even needed. Reading comprehension!

Look; I know this position is not a popular one, but then again so was desegregation.

Now you want to put this issue on the same plain as segregation? Do you not realize how ignorant you are making yourself sound?

Sometimes these things look better in hindsight. Yes, changing the name to a non-offensive moniker won't necessarily help the Native American, but the perception that its just okay to use it does hurt them, IMO.

It is non-offensive now. And, how is changing something that most Native Americans have said is a source of pride helping them in any way. The only one's who get anything from this are the PC crowd who want control over every one's thoughts.

There are a lot of hard questions that we'll never get the answer too. And whether or not the name changes, we'll still root as fervently; so I guess I'm just in the camp that does not see the huge deal about it.

Ignorance and the perpetration of hate are a huge deal, and that is exactly what the PC crowd are trying to spread. Screaming out racism against something that is not racist, is in fact causing racism and racial tension. When people have to be told that they should be offended by something, they are not really offended.