The Peyton Manning discussion

[fansince62]

It didn't help that Kyle called that while the Skins were throwing into the wind either.

I was listening to the game on the radio and Sonny ranted and raved about that for the next 2 or 3 series. He was incensed by the play call.

let's face it...Rex seems to do his best on these 15-25 yard passes and some crossing patterns a bit deeper. but he has no deep game. I get tired of watching him pass off his back foot all the time....he doesn't have the arm strength to overcome bad technique.

 

[SkinsOrlando]

While Rex is not the long term answer, and even though I was screaming bloody murder after the 4 int philly game. We might have had a chance at playoff contention if Beck never saw the field. I've never in my life seen someone so afraid to throw more than 15 yards.

 

[Neophyte]

While Rex is not the long term answer, and even though I was screaming bloody murder after the 4 int philly game. We might have had a chance at playoff contention if Beck never saw the field. I've never in my life seen someone so afraid to throw more than 15 yards.

Shoot, even without those games Beck played we would be in playoff contention if Gano hits 2 more FGs.

 

[Elephant]

Shoot, even without those games Beck played we would be in playoff contention if Gano hits 2 more FGs.

Both Dallas games! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

 

[Fear The Spear]

Shoot, even without those games Beck played we would be in playoff contention if Gano hits 2 more FGs.

Both Dallas games! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Wait, I thought both those Dallas losses were Hall's fault ?

Or are you guys warming up to Hall, now ?

 

[Lanky Livingston]

The more I think about it, the more I think trading back (again) is a fantastic idea. Someone is going to fall in love with Barkley or RG3, and they might be available when we pick. Trade back, get a boatload of picks, and draft Kellen Moore. I think that kid is gonna be an NFL player! He may never be a superstar, but I think he'll be a solid NFL QB for years.

 

[Elephant]

The more I think about it, the more I think trading back (again) is a fantastic idea. Someone is going to fall in love with Barkley or RG3, and they might be available when we pick. Trade back, get a boatload of picks, and draft Kellen Moore. I think that kid is gonna be an NFL player! He may never be a superstar, but I think he'll be a solid NFL QB for years.

Over Tannehill?

 

[Neophyte]

Wait, I thought both those Dallas losses were Hall's fault ?

Or are you guys warming up to Hall, now ?

Oh, I have not forgotten about Hall but if Gano hits the FG's he missed, Hall is never in that position to begin with.

 

[Hog Fever]

I get where you're going Lanky but there is a heck of a drop off in size and arm strength alone from Barkley or RG3 to Kellen Moore, not that those are the only factors that come in to play of course. If Barkley or RG3 are available where we end up drafting we need to stay put and draft one of them and not try to be cute and find the late round gem.

We simply must land the best prospect we can get in this draft at QB, even if that means *gasp* moving up. If that's what it takes to get our guy, do it. Nothing else matters more to this team than finding a long term answer at QB.

Sure, there are risks we take in selecting a QB early in the first round but it's a lot smaller risk than it was before the new rookie pay scale. We have to get over the Heath Shuler debacle. That was 17 years, a bunch of coaches and very few playoff appearances ago. Not having a franchise QB has been the single biggest thing holding this team back for the last 20 years.

 

[Elephant]

Not having a franchise QB has been the single biggest thing holding this team back for the last 20 years.

I am just not buying it. The lack of leadership from top to bottom is the single most influential aspect of the failure of this team in the last 20 years. And yes, it started with JKC when he hired Norv Turner.

That's not to say we don't need a QB that can be successful for years to come, but there are other ways to get a solid QB. We won't get Luck or RGIII unless we give up too much and we need more than just a QB. We need offensive line help desperately. While I truly believe a quality QB could instantly makes us better, a championship would still be a distant memory unless we build an offensive line that dominates.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

I get where you're going Lanky but there is a heck of a drop off in size and arm strength alone from Barkley or RG3 to Kellen Moore, not that those are the only factors that come in to play of course. If Barkley or RG3 are available where we end up drafting we need to stay put and draft one of them and not try to be cute and find the late round gem.

We simply must land the best prospect we can get in this draft at QB, even if that means *gasp* moving up. If that's what it takes to get our guy, do it. Nothing else matters more to this team than finding a long term answer at QB.

Sure, there are risks we take in selecting a QB early in the first round but it's a lot smaller risk than it was before the new rookie pay scale. We have to get over the Heath Shuler debacle. That was 17 years, a bunch of coaches and very few playoff appearances ago. Not having a franchise QB has been the single biggest thing holding this team back for the last 20 years.

You know, arm strength is important, I agree. However, I think there are much more important things. I read one scouting report that said Moore doesn't have the best arm strength, but the ball always seems to just "get there." Andy Dalton doesn't have the best arm either, but the ball always seems to get there. Christ, Noodlearm McGee (aka Chad Pennington) had an 11-year NFL career (kinda sorta)!

Moore is similar to Tebow, in that he just gets it done. His production and numerous college starts can't be ignored - 3,507 yards, 41TDs and 7INTS - while completing 74% of his passes in his senior year! Moore sent two Boise State WRs to the NFL - Titus Young and Austin Pettis. Those guys would have been UDFAs at best without him. Moore's biggest strikes against him are his physical limitations - he's not tall enough or big enough. Tom Brady dropped to the 6th round because he was a scrawny weakling. Drew Brees dropped to the 2nd round because he was short.

There is no guarantee, of course - but Moore is the closest thing to a late-round steal when it comes to QBs, IMO.

 

[Hog Fever]

I am just not buying it. The lack of leadership from top to bottom is the single most influential aspect of the failure of this team in the last 20 years. And yes, it started with JKC when he hired Norv Turner.

That's not to say we don't need a QB that can be successful for years to come, but there are other ways to get a solid QB. We won't get Luck or RGIII unless we give up too much and we need more than just a QB. We need offensive line help desperately. While I truly believe a quality QB could instantly makes us better, a championship would still be a distant memory unless we build an offensive line that dominates.

I'm not going to argue that top down leadership has been lacking in DC but a franchise QB would have changed everything. A team might have a down year here and there but if you have THAT guy at QB you will be in the playoff mix year after year.

Top Five QBs by statistics are all have their teams in playoff mix: Brees, Brady, Manning, Rogers and Stafford.

 

[Hog Fever]

You know, arm strength is important, I agree. However, I think there are much more important things. I read one scouting report that said Moore doesn't have the best arm strength, but the ball always seems to just "get there." Andy Dalton doesn't have the best arm either, but the ball always seems to get there. Christ, Noodlearm McGee (aka Chad Pennington) had an 11-year NFL career (kinda sorta)!

Moore is similar to Tebow, in that he just gets it done. His production and numerous college starts can't be ignored - 3,507 yards, 41TDs and 7INTS - while completing 74% of his passes in his senior year! Moore sent two Boise State WRs to the NFL - Titus Young and Austin Pettis. Those guys would have been UDFAs at best without him. Moore's biggest strikes against him are his physical limitations - he's not tall enough or big enough. Tom Brady dropped to the 6th round because he was a scrawny weakling. Drew Brees dropped to the 2nd round because he was short.

There is no guarantee, of course - but Moore is the closest thing to a late-round steal when it comes to QBs, IMO.

You follow the college game a lot closer than I do so I'll defer to your opinion on his NFL outlook to a point. Still, guys like that come out of college every year. Colt Brennan comes immediately to mind. Great numbers in college, winning programs, good leaders, ect but flawed in some way. Either they are too short, lack arm strength or can't adjust to the speed of the game at the pro level. It's a tough adjustment even for the guys at the top of the draft who have all of the measurables.

One or two of the "flawed" guys will become serviceable backups, fewer still become starters, but most are out of the league in a year or two. I don't have anything against the guy on a personal level or anything. He's a solid citizen, a winner and by all accounts a hard worker. Sometimes that isn't enough when you can't challenge a defense deep once in a while or throw over your lineman.

Oh as an aside; I stood next to Moore when he was at FedEx to play VA Tech a few years back and if he's an honest 6' I'm the King of Spain. Just sayin'.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Lanky Brady was drafted strictly on his measurable, he was big, strong and showed a great arm at the combine, his problem was he was mostly a back up in college and they didnt have a lot of film on him. He didnt fit a college scheme but he fits the pro game very well.

 

[Elephant]

HF, I guess we find ourselves in a sort of chicken/egg argument. I know a consistent QB at the helm is important, but you claim it is the most important when I tell you Ozzie Newsome has done a great job in Baltimore with numerous QB's over the past 12 years and they keep winning. I will concede the past 3 they've had more consistency with Flacco but there are a number of QB's in this league who would go to them and be able to do pretty much the same job he has with the surrounding cast.

I still believe championships are won because of great leadership at the top. You need look no further than Pittsburgh and New England in the last 10 years for proof of that.

 

[Hog Fever]

Mike, Boise State plays in the Mountain West, not exactly murderer's row, although they have played well against good competition. I have nothing against Moore, my point was there are a lot of guys who have put up great numbers in college who fail in the NFL for whatever reason. The guy is projected to go in the 5th or 6th round. We shall see.

If you guys want to suggest taking the guy late with one of our extra 6th rounders, cool. I'm fine with it. I just don't want to finish this year's draft and see him as the only QB we drafted.

 

[Hog Fever]

HF, I guess we find ourselves in a sort of chicken/egg argument. I know a consistent QB at the helm is important, but you claim it is the most important when I tell you Ozzie Newsome has done a great job in Baltimore with numerous QB's over the past 12 years and they keep winning. I will concede the past 3 they've had more consistency with Flacco but there are a number of QB's in this league who would go to them and be able to do pretty much the same job he has with the surrounding cast.

I still believe championships are won because of great leadership at the top. You need look no further than Pittsburgh and New England in the last 10 years for proof of that.

Good points. Still, New England and Pittsburgh didn't win Super Bowls without franchise QBs even though they both made SB appearances (and lost to teams with franchise QBs). The Raven's needed one of the best defenses in recent memory to pull it off in 2000 without one. The only other recent exception is Brad Johnson and that game was odd because of the Gruden/Oakland playbook thing.

So yes I agree that a good organization is key, but a franchise QB is worth what? Two wins a year? More? That would put us in the playoff race and would make our front office look a lot smarter. Manning was apparently worth 8 or 9 wins.

The Browns have a lot of folks who were in the 49ers organization when they were winning championships. They still stink. Scott Pioli hasn't turned the Chiefs around yet. So there are a lot of factors involved. Organization will only get you so far and elite QBs will only get you so far. There. I've gone and talked myself into a luke-warm position where I'm only half right. Hope you're happy.

 

[Hog Fever]

the reason why Boise St never gets respect is because of their cupcake schedule. when they have to play real SEC type teams they suck.

Im all for RG III and seeing what happens with him. Hes not a "what if" and Im pretty much tired of "what if we...." and having it blow up in our faces like Wile E Coyote.

Completely agree.

 

[Elephant]

By making you half right, does that make me half wrong? Yeah, I am convinced if we had consistently solid QB play this year we would be going down to the wire for the playoff hunt like everyone else in the NFCE.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Lanky Brady was drafted strictly on his measurable, he was big, strong and showed a great arm at the combine, his problem was he was mostly a back up in college and they didnt have a lot of film on him. He didnt fit a college scheme but he fits the pro game very well.

Brady started every game for Michigan in 98 and 99. Also, he was 6'4 and skinny.
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