Williams and Bounty System in Washington

[Lanky Livingston]

Another perspective from a former player:

This is life for a guy inside the NFL bubble, a world where extreme violence is rewarded with a paycheck. Before he got money to play the game, this violence was rewarded with pats on the back, special treatment, undeserved grades, scholarships, women, and status. There has always been a reward system in place for playing the game viciously. In the NFL, above all else, that reward is keeping your job.

http://deadspin.com/5890893/

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Its all hypocrisy, I have played football for over 20 years, since highschool on every single hit I have tried to explode through the ball carrier, on every single down I have tried to maximise the punishment to my opponent (always within the rules as I believe the rules are lax enough that you dont need to hit dirty to hurt someone.) if they leave the game because they cant handle it, thats a win for me and my team.

in highschool we had a sledgehammer award for the player who dealt out the hardest hits, we used to joke that they should put my name on the hammer because I loved the physical aspect of the game and was always trying to run through my opponents. In university on tuesdays, we would watch hilites from the game we played on the weekend, yeah we looked for mistakes, but we always celebrated the huge hits. on fridays we watched film from practice during the week, and what did we look for? big hits. the culture of football is to celebrate hitting, yeah the game itself is hugely strategic but at the end of the day, its won by the team who imposes its will on the other team more successfully.

A few people on my team remember a game where I jumped up, tipped a pass and made a diving catch for an interception touchdown, a couple really oldtimers remember me intercepting a pitch on an option and running 50 yards for a TD those two plays are perhaps my personal favourite memories, but EVERYONE ON OUR TEAM remembers me hitting former NFL Running back Ronny Jenkins so hard that his helmet cracked and he had to be helped off the field and I cracked my jaw. Everyone remembers me hitting some poor slotback in my second game, he was ambulanced only to find out afterwards that he had a flailed chest. Guys still talk about those hits... So why is it that devastating hits are so celebrated? BECAUSE THIS IS A COLLISION SPORT. we are taught from a young age to hit to the whistle, to roll our hips when we tackle, to RUN THROUGH THE MAN. and now some people are taking exception because they incented that behaviour with money?

Look at us as redskins fans, Aikman getting retired by Lavar, that punter getting trashcanned by Taylor, Taylor lighting up that receiver and forcing a fumbled that went 20 yards backwards lol, Clinton portis absolutely destroying guys in pass pro, Haynesworth crushing the bears center and blowing up a goalline play, landry on that sack in his rookie year absolutely killing Kolb.

I have yet to see anywhere , that Williams or any other DC was incenting DIRTY play, thats a whole other ballgame and yes that should be penalised harshly, but ffs, if you dont like hard hitting, why did we cheer when taylor lit up a PUNTER in the PROBOWL FFS.

anyone who doesnt think this goes on at every level is naive and foolish, as foolish as people who dont think HGH is endemic in the NFL.

 

[Boone]

Well, for those of you saying "no way Gibbs knew anything about this," here is George Starke saying he used to give out $100 bills for big hits.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-for-big-hits/2012/03/06/gIQAjtumuR_blog.html

(EDIT: also says George Allen had a reward system).

I think its going to become more and more clear that this is prevalent across the NFL. Gregg Williams will be martyred, but he's just a needle in a haystack.

That's interesting, but I'm not sure it really applies to what Gibbs said. I believe Gibbs was denying he knew about a 'bounty scheme' with Williams in DC during Gibbs II. We can choose to believe or not believe that - but I think that's what Gibbs was addressing. If we're going to go back 20 years, then you might as well figure out punishments for every team, because I'll bet there hasn't been a team not technically guilty of a 'bounty' of some kind or another during that period.

I tend to give Joe Gibbs the benefit of the doubt here. I think he's too smart to pull a Joe Paterno here. If he really knew details of this, I don't think he'd have so quickly and adamantly denied it. I think the missing man play after Sean Taylor's death is evidence that Williams did what he wanted, often not feeling compelled to let Joe in on his plans. This may have been that same kind of thing.

Of course, I'll add the caveat that I prefer to believe this

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Ryman, I think they are saying Williams was giving bounties for injuries, knocking guys out of the game, etc. The main distinction here is whether or not the hits were dirty, or if they were clean. Because as Ry pointed out, as a football player you are always looking for the kill shot (contrary to popular belief and Laron Landry's game, you can go for the kill shot while maintaining proper form).

That's interesting, but I'm not sure it really applies to what Gibbs said. I believe Gibbs was denying he knew about a 'bounty scheme' with Williams in DC during Gibbs II. We can choose to believe or not believe that - but I think that's what Gibbs was addressing. If we're going to go back 20 years, then you might as well figure out punishments for every team, because I'll bet there hasn't been a team not technically guilty of a 'bounty' of some kind or another during that period.

I tend to give Joe Gibbs the benefit of the doubt here. I think he's too smart to pull a Joe Paterno here. If he really knew details of this, I don't think he'd have so quickly and adamantly denied it. I think the missing man play after Sean Taylor's death is evidence that Williams did what he wanted, often not feeling compelled to let Joe in on his plans. This may have been that same kind of thing.

Of course, I'll add the caveat that I prefer to believe this

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to implicate Gibbs as a liar, just pointing out that this rewards-for-hitting thing has been going on for a long time. I guess it was more to address the "Gibbs would not condone such actions." He truly may not have known about the bounties but if he had, I'm not sure he would have swooped in and put an end to it. In Gibbs' first go-round there was no salary cap either, so non-contractual bonuses may not have been as big of a deal.

 

[Boone]

You know what Lanky? I would hate to think it's possible, but Joe Gibbs is human - and I refuse to totally discount that he knew all about this. It may be one of those situations where he knew full well some of the stuff Williams was doing, hard to believe he didn't at some level, if only because players talk and he was bound to hear some of them referencing a bounty over the years. Maybe Williams never discussed it with him in order to provide that whole 'plausible deniability' angle. I guess it's also possible he just never knew.

Bottom line, it's only when you make this whole thing a capital crime that it even matters if he knew or not.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

You know what Lanky? I would hate to think it's possible, but Joe Gibbs is human - and I refuse to totally discount that he knew all about this. It may be one of those situations where he knew full well some of the stuff Williams was doing, hard to believe he didn't at some level, if only because players talk and he was bound to hear some of them referencing a bounty over the years. Maybe Williams never discussed it with him in order to provide that whole 'plausible deniability' angle. I guess it's also possible he just never knew.

Bottom line, it's only when you make this whole thing a capital crime that it even matters if he knew or not.

Yeah, it seems very implausible to me that Joe Gibbs, known for having his finger on the pulse of his football team, would not know that there was a bounty system for big hits, etc. Just does not seem possible.

 

[Brander]

i guess the whole issue of what you intend with a "good clean hit" is very troublesome, a gray area, or what? Obviously, they are meant to do harm, perhaps they don't intend permanent harm but no two ways about it, that's always a risk. WTOP has an article on the Giants-SF game and the Kyle Williams affair. Not much doubt about what was intended when you read this conversation:
" In the locker room afterward, two Giants special teams players boasted they knew chances were especially good they could separate Williams from the football _ and maybe his senses, too.

"The thing is, we knew he had four concussions, so that was our biggest thing, was to take him outta the game," said Jacquian Williams, who forced the second fumble.

"He's had a lot of concussions," echoed Devin Thomas, who recovered both fumbles. "We were just like, `We gotta put a hit on that guy.'"

I assume these guys were not collecting a bounty, but that doesn't make me feel any better.

http://wtop.com/?nid=357&sid=2774062

B.

 

[fansince62]

An excellent point! I've seen countless posts celebrating Lavar's hit on Aikman that ended his career (although none here that I can remember). We also talk bad about Philly fans for cheering Michael Irvin's neck injury...but then we cheer for the end of Aikman's career.

Its all about perspective, I suppose. I'm still in the "this is not such a big deal" camp. Its a violent sport...you don't like the idea of a defender trying to take someone's head off, I suggest golf.

wait a minute now Lanky! I love golf!

anywho....actually caught Arrington on the radio while in transit from mtgs. He made the point that the violence itself was going to happen - THAT PHYSICALLY INTIMIDATING THE OPPONENT COMES WITH THE TERRITORY OF BEING AN NFL PLAYER. his point was that the players themselves see the game as a war. they go all out to physically dominate......he wasn't advocating for dirty play...he was stating that administering pain to the point of knocking someone out of the game comes with the territory. he then used that stance to argue a bounty system was totally unnecessary - that where it exists is a function of coaches needing to project their will across the league through the players. not sure on the last....but the first point seems reasonble to me.

 

[Jimbo]

Is it to naive or simplified to determine which is a "bounty" and which is a "reward"? A bounty would be "you get x amount of dollars for knocking a guy out for a play or the game" whereas a reward is "you get this much for INT's, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, interceptions or sacks".

Then again, the Special Teams "Hit Stick" was borderline bounty for giving a guy the stick for the week for the biggest hit or play on Special Teams. Could the same be said for determining up front what aspects of the game could bring monetary rewards?

I know "intent" is wrong but can you always prove intent, based on results? People want to point to the Daniels/Carter sack of Manning where his neck issues supposedly started. I contend it was more of a perfect storm of hi-lo that got Peyton jacked up for a bit and nothing more.

I guess it will be up to the coaching staffs to police this going forward but I hate the idea of making an example of Williams and the Saints with an extreme punishment that could rival what Belicheat did.

I'm not a fan of Goodell but I recognize that he's caught between a rock and a hard place and the pressure is on to prove the NFL can effectively police itself.

 

[Nobody]

My neighbor's brother is a sports writer for the Virginian Pilot, and he says his sources are telling him that the Redskins will not be receiving the Goodell wrath that the Saints will, because supposedly in Washington when the higher ups found out about it, they put a stop to it by not retaining GW, and that it was made clear to all new staff that such behavior would not be tolerated.

Take it for what it's worth, but the guy has been pretty spot on with his info over the years. He also claims Gibbs caught wind of it, and the morality of the whole situation lead to his decision to permanently retire. Sounds like he was in a situation like Tony Dungy was where he found out about it and distanced himself from it, but never spoke up about it.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

we need more info, if it was bounties for injuring guys and not just for big hits, thats borderline and worth a fine, but if was including dirty play, and actively encouraging it? he should be getting a lifetime ban