What should they do with RG3

[Henry]

Meh. Nevermind.

 

[Boone]

I'll pose a challenging question. If the Redskins had drafted Andrew Luck and not Griffin, do you really think we'd be talking about releasing him right now? Because I think he'd still be Andrew Luck. And the reason that's my belief is that Luck is a mentally strong, determined QB with all the skills you ever need from that position. Griffin is a guy who needs everything to go perfectly to perform well. He's talented but in limited way, and I think he's demonstrated repeatedly his confidence and ego are much more fragile than other NFL starters. That's the key to his position currently, not an organization having 'destroyed him'.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Om]

If we'd been in position to grab Luck, it's a fair bet we'd be discussing the dynamics of the Shanahan Dynasty* today instead of whether or not Gruden is to blame for RG3's failings.

* You know, it's a miracle Kyle's still here at all---clearly he's turned down all those HC offers because he, Mike and Dan have always intended that the reigns be handed over at some point. It's time, Mike. Your legacy's cemented. It's Kyle's turn.

 

[Henry]

Boone, I don't think everything went perfectly in 2012, do you? At one point we were 3-6, Griffin had already been knocked out of a game with a concussion. He was getting crushed every week and we had just lost back-to-back games against the Steelers and the Panthers. People were openly saying he was a flash in the pan and Luck was obviously better and this other guy Wilson was coming on.

I think things were pretty far from perfect at that point.

When I say (probably too often, I know) that Griffin took this team on his back and carried it to the division title I really mean it. The team was fairly putrid. Without Griffin that team was a 6 win team tops.

What do I think would have happened had the Redskins drafted Luck? Honestly, I'd put at even money that we'd be on the way to running him out of town by now. Yes, Luck is better than Griffin. Yes, he's tougher. Yes, he does not require the support that Griffin obviously does. But the Redskins are absolutely toxic. This team's track record of chewing up players and spitting them out is MUCH longer and uglier than Griffin's list of ego problems.

I'm not absolving Griffin for his role in his own downfall. Maybe he did need everything to be perfect in order to succeed here. But I'd say what is more relevant to the Redskins right now is that we apparently need a player to be perfect in order for that player to succeed here, and that's a problem. A fairly huge problem.

 

[Om]

Henry, just outta intellectual curiosity ... what players would you say the Redskins have chewed up and spit out that approached Andrew Luck's capabilities?

 

[Goaldeje]

Well, Griffin turned in a historic rookie year, BETTER than Luck's.

So there's that.

 

[MikeSr619]

Henry, just outta intellectual curiosity ... what players would you say the Redskins have chewed up and spit out that approached Andrew Luck's capabilities?

There aren't really too many players with "Luck's capabilities" but it doesn't mean that the Skins haven't chewed up their fair share. I think if Luck was here behind that super small line that he would have been on his butt A LOT more than he was up in Indy where it was already set due to Peyton grooming that OL and WRs. He basically got to step in and take over for one of the best to ever lace them up. But, behind our line, he wouldn't have made it any further (if not less) than Griffin did.

 

[Om]

Well, Griffin turned in a historic rookie year, BETTER than Luck's.

So there's that.

Hmm. There's a great thread idea. Perhaps we could all discuss why RG3 was so good for that brief time, and who/what is ultimately responsible for his inability to recreate or expand on it?

 

[Om]

Mike, I don't agree at all. I think Luck is as good as I've ever seen coming out of college at reading defenses, knowing where and when to go with the ball, when and how to run effectively without getting killed, and other cool stuff.

BUT ... since this is one of those things we have zero evidence upon which to base a meaningful argument ... I'm thinkin' it's not one I'm up for today.

 

[Goaldeje]

Hmm. There's a great thread idea. Perhaps we could all discuss why RG3 was so good for that brief time, and who/what is ultimately responsible for his inability to recreate or expand on it?

Great idea. Maybe you could start one or six such threads?

 

[McD5]

Joey T says Griffin is still 1.5 years behind. He needs to stop reading my material, or at least pay me royalties.

By my estimation, he is still 2-4 years behind even Jameis and Mariota in pocket presence and passing.

The solution for him is pretty simple. He needs 2 years on someone else's bench, and then he has a great chance of developing into a Jason Campbell type of QB.

Dallas and Seattle would be ideal landing spots for him. They both have solid QBs and he can ride the bench and catch up quietly.

 

[MikeSr619]

Mike, I don't agree at all. I think Luck is as good as I've ever seen coming out of college at reading defenses, knowing where and when to go with the ball, when and how to run effectively without getting killed, and other cool stuff.

BUT ... since this is one of those things we have zero evidence upon which to base a meaningful argument ... I'm thinkin' it's not one I'm up for today.

You don't think having the OL that Peyton Manning set up helps at all? You don't think those WRs such as Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison helped him when he slipped? I can't see how you can say that Luck didn't have any advantage over Griffin in that area. Griffin took over for....Grossman? With Tana the #1 target still?

Luck was good coming out of Stanford....Harbaugh coached him up right. But he landed in the perfect spot to get better and be given time in the pocket to learn.

 

[Henry]

Henry, just outta intellectual curiosity ... what players would you say the Redskins have chewed up and spit out that approached Andrew Luck's capabilities?

I have no idea. I dont follow Luck all that closely. Maybe he's insanely perfect and no amount of coaching/front office incompetence could ever possibly ruin his career. Maybe we've never had a player that wonderful play here. (Although in that case he's such an outlier that his example is fairly irrelevant to this discussion).

What I do know is that since Snyder bought the team we've had exactly two pro-bowl seasons from the QB position. Both times, said QB was trashed publicly by someone in the front office almost immediately and eventually left town in disgrace (I'm assuming Griffin will be leaving town soon). When you throw in every single other QB who has played here in between you start to see a pattern. Maybe Luck would have been the one exception, but since he is not here and will never be here that point is, again, fairly moot.

 

[MikeSr619]

Joey T says Griffin is still 1.5 years behind. He needs to stop reading my material, or at least pay me royalties.

By my estimation, he is still 2-4 years behind even Jameis and Mariota in pocket presence and passing.

The solution for him is pretty simple. He needs 2 years on someone else's bench, and then he has a great chance of developing into a Jason Campbell type of QB.

Dallas and Seattle would be ideal landing spots for him. They both have solid QBs and he can ride the bench and catch up quietly.

Winston? You really STILL trying to sell that snake oil?

Winston has been hit, sacked, hurt, thrown picks, and looked worse than Mariota out there. You are not going to convince ANYONE to buy what you're pushing.

 

[Goaldeje]

Here's the thing with Luck: he isn't as perfect as the media tries to make him out to be. To be fair to him, his OLine has been pretty terrible his first three years in the league. Not quite David Carr level bad, but pretty bad. But Luck isn't the all-powerful QB god some paint him as. He throws a fair number of head scratching picks, and how many times last year did his team get behind before he turned it on and miraculously brought them back for the win? Lots. The KC playoff game was kind of a microcosm, if memory serves.

So I think it's a fair question that Boone brings up, but I don't think the suggestion that Luck would have been fine and the Redskins organizational incompetence would have been subsumed by Luck's brilliance is necessarily accurate. I think it could have hypothetically gone that way, but I also think there's a more-than-decent chance that he would have been ridden out of town too. Our organizational culture is that bad.

And Andrew Luck hasn't been the Football Jesus he is portrayed as. I don't think that question has a cut and dried answer.

 

[Om]

Henry, the question was kind of a setup, so sorry about that.

Yes, I think Luck is a special player. I used him simply to suggest that my take on our problems here for so long hasn't been so much about some indefinable "toxicity" as it has been we simply haven't had very good players. Certainly not enough of them. And most specifically and importantly, I don't think we've had a whole lot of talent here at the QB position. In fact I'd say that the list of QB's we've had here since Rypien retired speaks volumes in support of that notion. The only one I can think of I'd wish we coulda kept was Trent Green, and the reasons we didn't really can't be blamed on Dan Snyder, Allen, et al.

Robert Griffin III had, and presumably still has, talent. It is the nature and development of that talent, and how we've come from the mercurial electricity of 2012 to the blackout of 2015, that I guess will be a topic Redskins fans will be discussing for a generation.

 

[Henry]

Well, and thats why I edited my original post (or at least tried to).

Nothing is getting solved today.

 

[Boone]

Griffin was awesome in 2012. But I think what we discovered about him (in stark contrast to a guy like Luck) is that he lacks the ability to protect himself, make steady decisions with the ball, and doesn't handle adversity (whether it's injury, conflict with coaches, whatever) very effectively.

I believe had we drafted Luck, he would be thriving here because he not only has the skills needed at the NFL level but has the temperament and leadership skills to overcome barriers to success.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Goaldeje]

I hear you, and understand the argument, I just don't think it's that simple. If you were able to drop Luck in, as he is right now, I think he would indeed be fine.

But the playoff appearances and media slobbering have covered up a fair amount of growing pains. I'm not sure we as a fanbase have the patience for that, and the organization has a whole has an incredible power to corrupt and **** up all kinds of good things that have happened to us.

Could Luck have overcome all that? Sure. If there was some way to prove out this exercise, I wouldn't be shocked at all if he were able to shine despite everything else. But I also wouldn't be shocked if he hadn't. I don't think it's a given.

 

[micks113]

How do you know Snyder didn't force him to keep Haslett for the duration of his contract? I don't know if Gruden can get it done, but he's been here ONE year - O-N-E - seriously man, Jesus himself couldn't turn this mess around in a year. The dynamic right now amongst fans - McLovin is an infallible God, Gruden is the fallen angel who can do nothing right. I just don't buy it's that simple. The roster is much improved. The coaches are much improved (at least in theory). And the head coach, say what you will, but he's got some balls and he's not going to let a (sorry) prima donna under-performing starting QB hold the offense back anymore. You guys want to chalk all the positives up to McLovin and anything remotely less than positive to Gruden - but I doubt that's the whole story.

And I will give you one thing that's greatly improved since Gruden got here - even in the midst of a 4 win season last year - the lockerroom. We've seen nothing like the crap that was going on during the end of the Shanahan era in terms of players questioning the coaching staff and team decisions, running to the media every chance they got, etc... I think that speaks to something we don't yet get, that the players are buying what Gruden is selling them. Time will tell.

You couldn't be more right Boone. What I don't get is why the Gruden haters want to hang their hats on that. A lot went down with Griffin well before Gruden got here. He didn't invent this garbage team. He just gave Robert a chance and it didn't work out. (OK the haters say he didn't give him the chance, whatever, Griffin was really already done when Gruden arrived. He certainly didn't make him worse.)

Give Gruden a level playing field and a complete roster then we'll be able to measure his efforts. And those efforts are going to be supported by the GM. You can bet on that. Everyone in the front office, the coaches, the GM now is on board with the plan, all these executive players have met and let the media and the fans know it. If you choose to ignore this, its on you.

edit: hey i'm not saying we'll win with this version of this team. I said complete the rebuild first. After all, we are going to battle with the same guys on offense as last year, so don't get hopes up.