What should they do with RG3

[fansince62]

Joey T maybe right or maybe wrong. Doesn't matter because we are out of time due to the option dollars. Had he made significant
progress, as Gruden has said he needed too all along, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I just can't see any upside to keeping
him around.

I totally agree. Let him go. I'm just interested in recognizing that the narrative floating currently is dishonest. ok....let's be charitable...it's incomplete.

 

[fansince62]

I am a fan of the Washington Redskins. I support whoever wears the burgundy and gold. I am glad we have a starter and time to move on.

I think Griffin is a good guy. In the end, regardless NFL or work force, it is all about production. Gruden was hired to supposedly fix Griffin. In the end you have to worry about what you can control. That is yourself. Griffin is responsible for Griffin. It's easy to complain and place blame elsewhere. We will see what kind of person he really is. This should make him work even harder to get back as the #1 guy when chance comes.

PS... he should stay away from social media

no disrespect...but that is way off. as a corporate entity the Redskins are no different from any other. it's easily observable in the real world to observe the companies and leadership that create environments in which the culture and institutionalized processes work to develop and improve its workforce. you can see the same in the NFL: there are teams that understand all the subtle interactions at all layers of building a franchise that consistently performs well - we all know this doesn't include the Redskins. this team over the last 20+ years has destroyed careers....not developed talent. you are right in that the individual is certainly a key ingredient of success - though as a blunt generalization for a team sport it requires some adjustment. the redskins are where players have traveled to make money and end careers.

hopefully....McL will change much of that. part of that change will include finding a coach with the stature and intelligence to beat the best coaches in the league when it matters most. but...that's a different argument!

 

[fansince62]

Boone has it right. There are a whole lot of experts commenting on Robert's progress as an NFL quarterback, and they all have one thing in common; they haven't been with him in the classroom and on the practice field every single day and don't have the slightest idea what two coaching staffs have tried to teach/instill in him, day in and day out, for three years.

Hey, MAYBE Robert's apparent lack of tangible progress in the passing game is all their fault. And definitely, the injuries have cost him practice time for a good part of his short career here. But I think it's disingenuous for so many people who simply don't have the data the people actually working with the man every day operate with, to sound off as if they not only know, but know better.

OM.....you're extrapolating from the fact that there were classroom sessions (which clearly isn't everything there is to developing a talent) to the notion that that attention was a quality effort. and you don't know that given your own criteria. it's just as easy for me to extrapolate from the coaching turmoil to the glaring gap of no QB coach to a different conclusion. how about this: if you were to go back and mine the last three years of posts on this board....do you think some semi-normalized study would conclude that the balance of ideas expressed on this board supported the notion that this was a well organized, successful team or a chaotic, undisciplined, poorly led franchise? I think we both know the answer. while not mutually exclusive, I nevertheless fall in with a group that would argue it is inconsistent to believe the franchise has been chaotic but that griffin benefitted from an environment that optimized his chances for success - i.e., that the responsibility for failure rests entirely with the player.

 

[Boone]

wellllll....I saw shows on COMCAST where he was at practice.......he broadcasts the games! and nothing he said about the history is off. the point is that the there was no disciplined process on this screwed up team. I absolutely accept that notion 1000%. if one looks at the events over 4 years it is inescapable that there was no elongated period of time in which he was either not recovering from injury or adapting to team change. I have no issue whatsoever in accepting that griffin did not show the progress he should have. per previous, there is also no doubt in my mind that this stems from many factors - among which the instability and idiocy of this team rank high. part griffin...part redskins....this team did not have a plan for developing this player. we'll get to jay the prevaricator another time.

Who cares about the why Al? The bottom line is he hasn't made progress. He's regressed, and I wouldn't have thought it possible after last season. You're wrong about Theismann - he knows more about QBing than the average sports mediot, and obviously more than us. But he doesn't know the details I mentioned in my post - period. He can't anymore accurately judge Griffin's 'potential' or ability to eventually 'get it' than you or I, not knowing what this coaching staff knows and has experienced, face to face over going into a second year with him.

 

[fansince62]

Who cares about the why Al? The bottom line is he hasn't made progress. He's regressed, and I wouldn't have thought it possible after last season. You're wrong about Theismann - he knows more about QBing than the average sports mediot, and obviously more than us. But he doesn't know the details I mentioned in my post - period. He can't anymore accurately judge Griffin's 'potential' or ability to eventually 'get it' than you or I, not knowing what this coaching staff knows and has experienced, face to face over going into a second year with him.

I care about the truth. I care about knowledge. I have this crazy notion that analyzing root causes goes a long way toward reducing the probability of repetition - assuming appropriate mitigations are put in place. but......different strokes......

from what you posted...the conclusion I arrive at is that there is no more reason to discount what Theismann has to say than anyone else!

btw...how do you know Theismann isn't plugged in through some path into the FO? just saying that the problem with the "you don't know argument" is that it is easily turned against ANY counter-argument.

 

[McD5]

Here's an interesting article from a former NFL agent that points out two things. How RG3 could be traded, and it also notes that we are roughly $11 million under the cap right now.

Of course, there's no need to spend every single penny of the cap, but I had no idea that we are that far under. It's possible that we could still sign additional players.

Agent's Take: How the Redskins can engineer a trade for RG3

 

[fansince62]

ok...I'll buy into a change of discussion...for the moment.

following your lead.....if we keep to a draft centric strategy I think you're on point. no idea but the real costs next season will likely materialize from some players who we will need to resign if they perform well (e.g., potroast). working on the assumption that we will not be active in FA.

 

[Boone]

I care about the truth. I care about knowledge. I have this crazy notion that analyzing root causes goes a long way toward reducing the probability of repetition - assuming appropriate mitigations are put in place. but......different strokes......

from what you posted...the conclusion I arrive at is that there is no more reason to discount what Theismann has to say than anyone else!

btw...how do you know Theismann isn't plugged in through some path into the FO? just saying that the problem with the "you don't know argument" is that it is easily turned against ANY counter-argument.

You are talking generalities and I'm talking specifics. Without being in the locker room, in the meetings, knowing what the coaches are asking of the QBs and exactly how they are performing based on those instructions, none of us can judge what Gruden and company can judge. That doesn't by definition mean their assessment is right - but their assessment is made firsthand with a lot more information than we have. You Al, above all, should know that not all opinions are equally valid. And if you are interested in 'the truth' I would think you'd not be so quick to pronounce Gruden evil incarnate and see if perhaps he is right that Cousins is ready to lead this team and that perhaps most of us were wrong all along about Griffin.


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[CounterTrey]

Maybe Boone but it's not like the treatment of Griffin is the only evidence for concluding that Gruden sucks as a HC. There's the whole clusterfudge he has been dealing with the media and then of course...

What exactly has improved during his tenure besides the roster which I'm guessing he's had next to nothing to do with? I honestly can't think of a single thing, several things actually got worse. Oh and I almost forgot about the whole Haslett thing. Gruden is a textbook example of being in over your head, I'd feel sorry for him if my team wasn't continuing to suffer as a result.

I actually had Bengal and Browns fans telling me my team was a trainwreck today and they felt sorry for me. Bengals and Browns!!

Yeesh.

 

[Boone]

How do you know Snyder didn't force him to keep Haslett for the duration of his contract? I don't know if Gruden can get it done, but he's been here ONE year - O-N-E - seriously man, Jesus himself couldn't turn this mess around in a year. The dynamic right now amongst fans - McLovin is an infallible God, Gruden is the fallen angel who can do nothing right. I just don't buy it's that simple. The roster is much improved. The coaches are much improved (at least in theory). And the head coach, say what you will, but he's got some balls and he's not going to let a (sorry) prima donna under-performing starting QB hold the offense back anymore. You guys want to chalk all the positives up to McLovin and anything remotely less than positive to Gruden - but I doubt that's the whole story.

And I will give you one thing that's greatly improved since Gruden got here - even in the midst of a 4 win season last year - the lockerroom. We've seen nothing like the crap that was going on during the end of the Shanahan era in terms of players questioning the coaching staff and team decisions, running to the media every chance they got, etc... I think that speaks to something we don't yet get, that the players are buying what Gruden is selling them. Time will tell.

 

[Boone]

The one thing we can all agree on - we're all tired of talking about RG3. If I never have to dissect RG3's game again, that would be fine with him. Nothing against him personally, I was really hoping he'd start to show positive signs. But we can't wait forever. I'll confess I've started to resent him for all of the drama he creates, whether it's his fault or not. Time to move on and never look back.

 

[CounterTrey]

Oh I can't agree at all. Last year had all kinds of player leaks indicative of dissent and a decided lack of unity. Gruden has balls? Man you and I are NOT seeing through the same prism at ALL. I think the guy lacks them significantly. a man with balls doesn't feel the need to throw players under the bus the way he did all year last year and into this one. And now Snyder forced him to keep Haslett? Are you serious? Dude he hitched his wagon to his buddy and former boss Haslett all season long and was STILL singing his praises at seasons end. If anything I'd believe Snyder was up his ass about getting rid of Haslett, not vice versa.

 

[Boone]

I think you're wrong. Haslett was a former mentor - of course he's not going to throw him under the bus publically. He had to fire the guy for God's sake - that's pretty humiliating to begin with. I think he saw, firsthand, that Haslett wasn't going to be able to get the job done. I am pretty sure that Snyder didn't want to have to pay two DCs at the same time he was still paying Mike Shanahan NOT to coach. There's a difference between poor communication (in terms of calling players to the media) which I harshly criticized him for at the time, and having 'balls'. Ball's is benching the favorite son QB, the owner's bestie, and even more so, deciding to move on this year even knowing that his ultimate employer doesn't want him to. I think you have to admit that's the case. I'm no Gruden apologist. I need to see some major movement in the right direction on the field this year to start believing he can be the guy. But calling him a disaster after one year is pretty unfair and as I've stated over and over, the #1 reason we are where we are as a franchise is the revolving door at head coach. Continuing that after a single or even two seasons would be a mistake.

 

[stevenaa]

Oh I can't agree at all. Last year had all kinds of player leaks indicative of dissent and a decided lack of unity. Gruden has balls? Man you and I are NOT seeing through the same prism at ALL. I think the guy lacks them significantly. a man with balls doesn't feel the need to throw players under the bus the way he did all year last year and into this one. And now Snyder forced him to keep Haslett? Are you serious? Dude he hitched his wagon to his buddy and former boss Haslett all season long and was STILL singing his praises at seasons end. If anything I'd believe Snyder was up his ass about getting rid of Haslett, not vice versa.

I've never heard a head coach voice negative thoughts about an outgoing coach. What was he supposed to say? More likely Haslet talked a good story of having his hands tied by Shanahan and that was probably backed up by Snyder. Likely true to some extent from what we know. Given his past history with Haslett, it was a reasonable choice. Not to mention maintaining some stability. I never thought the team gave up on him last year at all. We have know real idea how the team views him, but I'm with Boone, I think he has them.

 

[stevenaa]

I care about the truth. I care about knowledge. I have this crazy notion that analyzing root causes goes a long way toward reducing the probability of repetition - assuming appropriate mitigations are put in place. but......different strokes......

from what you posted...the conclusion I arrive at is that there is no more reason to discount what Theismann has to say than anyone else!

btw...how do you know Theismann isn't plugged in through some path into the FO? just saying that the problem with the "you don't know argument" is that it is easily turned against ANY counter-argument.

I think we all care about the truth, but as fans we'll never have the information. Ever. We are privy to a very, very small fraction of everything that goes on. That's the main reason so many of us see the same things happening but come to very different conclusions. We have to fill in too many holes and our own biases color how that happens.

 

[fansince62]

You are talking generalities and I'm talking specifics. Without being in the locker room, in the meetings, knowing what the coaches are asking of the QBs and exactly how they are performing based on those instructions, none of us can judge what Gruden and company can judge. That doesn't by definition mean their assessment is right - but their assessment is made firsthand with a lot more information than we have. You Al, above all, should know that not all opinions are equally valid. And if you are interested in 'the truth' I would think you'd not be so quick to pronounce Gruden evil incarnate and see if perhaps he is right that Cousins is ready to lead this team and that perhaps most of us were wrong all along about Griffin.


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Boone.....a lot of progress in science over the millennia was built not on direct evidence but by calibrated observation of effects or indirect measurement. the classic example is measurement of the Earth's circumference over 2000 years ago to a fair degree of accuracy by using geometry and noticing shadow lengths rather than deploying the world's largest ever ruler. more to point....science has never been about perfect knowledge...it's been about reducing uncertainty. the standard then becomes determining the degree of uncertainty reduction needed before one is willing to accept a hypothesis. you and I clearly have different standards. as for judgment - not my issue. I have been dwelling on the dynamics, over time, of multiple dysfunctional processes, some of which lie in the individual and some of which lie in the system/environment the individual operates in, and how those interact. have I built a model, sampled and established quantitative relationships? no. my burden to bear. I don't have to in some respects.....the evidence the last 3 years overwhelming supports the idea that this has been a dysfunctional organization from top to bottom. as many are fond of saying about griffin - the win/loss record is glaring proof of concept.

shall we review some of the "evidence":

- we know there was conflict within the front office

- we know coaching staffs made bad decisions

- we know the team routinely made mistakes well coached teams do not make

- we know the team and coaches mishandled the media

- we know the media worked to constantly attack the team

- we know players used the media to inject conflict into the lockerroom

- we know the the offense, defense and STs were all atrocious for the last two years

- we know previous drafts ended up not delivering much

- we know the on-field focus of players wasn't good

- we know there were multiple injuries...not just to griffin

- we know the team employed schemes it did not have the personnel to support

- we know there were severe cap constraints

- we know we had, until recently, no GM

.....a whole bunch more....all of which add up to the environment the actors operated in.

I will never, ever buy into any counter-argument that environment doesn't matter and, more specifically, this team's circus over the last two years did not contribute to some of grffin's failure to develop. you will never get me to agree to the fol: "well yea....everything we witnessed over the last two years was eff'd up beyond belief (which it was), but none of this impacted griffin's chances for developing into a quality QB." sorry.....but that's really, really, really bad systems analysis.

 

[Ax]

Here's an interesting article from a former NFL agent that points out two things. How RG3 could be traded, and it also notes that we are roughly $11 million under the cap right now.

Of course, there's no need to spend every single penny of the cap, but I had no idea that we are that far under. It's possible that we could still sign additional players.

Agent's Take: How the Redskins can engineer a trade for RG3

This should take some of the hysteria out of the equation. There are options. Mr McCloo most certainly knew them from the start. There may yet be others.

 

[stevenaa]

I don't think anyone has even slightly suggested that the environment wasn't a contributing factor. Boone has made the point repeatedly that it was, but even taking that into consideration, RG didn't show enough progress with the time he's had. On that I think we all agree. Now where many diverge is in the opinion that he still may come around after he moves on. I don't see it, but his play in front of us has been limited. I suspect the team wasn't seeing quick enough progress through the offseason. There's kind of two discussions happening here. Did the environment break him, and is he still salvageable.

 

[fansince62]

I don't think anyone has even slightly suggested that the environment wasn't a contributing factor. Boone has made the point repeatedly that it was, but even taking that into consideration, RG didn't show enough progress with the time he's had. On that I think we all agree. Now where many diverge is in the opinion that he still may come around after he moves on. I don't see it, but his play in front of us has been limited. I suspect the team wasn't seeing quick enough progress through the offseason. There's kind of two discussions happening here. Did the environment break him, and is he still salvageable.

but that's the crux of the matter. you are assuming there is some "enough" criterion. and I'm arguing that carries much less weight in an environment that is inherently FUBAR. and that, in a more diplomatic way, was what Theismann was really saying the other day.

Everyone is free to set their own standard for what is a reasonable expectation. Let's use an analogue: a kick returner's stats are the product of what?

- the average distance of league kickers (i.e., a variable outside control)

- the scheme taught and implemented by the ST coach

- the skills and vision of the kick returner

- the skills and understanding of scheme by the blockers

- weather

- field condition

in short, a whole bunch of variables that extend beyond just the individual kick returner. some carry more weight than others. that said, these variables are almost certainly highly correlated. well, all I'm arguing is that the "progress" function for griffin does not escape this sort of systems analysis. it's not all griffin. that's the point I'm driving home with all the people who glibly accept that this is all on griffin. it's not. there were multiple forces in play that end stated, once again, in a dysfunctional franchise mismanaging its resources.

 

[Boone]

Boone.....a lot of progress in science over the millennia was built not on direct evidence but by calibrated observation of effects or indirect measurement. the classic example is measurement of the Earth's circumference over 2000 years ago to a fair degree of accuracy by using geometry and noticing shadow lengths rather than deploying the world's largest ever ruler. more to point....science has never been about perfect knowledge...it's been about reducing uncertainty. the standard then becomes determining the degree of uncertainty reduction needed before one is willing to accept a hypothesis. you and I clearly have different standards. as for judgment - not my issue. I have been dwelling on the dynamics, over time, of multiple dysfunctional processes, some of which lie in the individual and some of which lie in the system/environment the individual operates in, and how those interact. have I built a model, sampled and established quantitative relationships? no. my burden to bear. I don't have to in some respects.....the evidence the last 3 years overwhelming supports the idea that this has been a dysfunctional organization from top to bottom. as many are fond of saying about griffin - the win/loss record is glaring proof of concept.

shall we review some of the "evidence":

- we know there was conflict within the front office

- we know coaching staffs made bad decisions

- we know the team routinely made mistakes well coached teams do not make

- we know the team and coaches mishandled the media

- we know the media worked to constantly attack the team

- we know players used the media to inject conflict into the lockerroom

- we know the the offense, defense and STs were all atrocious for the last two years

- we know previous drafts ended up not delivering much

- we know the on-field focus of players wasn't good

- we know there were multiple injuries...not just to griffin

- we know the team employed schemes it did not have the personnel to support

- we know there were severe cap constraints

- we know we had, until recently, no GM

.....a whole bunch more....all of which add up to the environment the actors operated in.

I will never, ever buy into any counter-argument that environment doesn't matter and, more specifically, this team's circus over the last two years did not contribute to some of grffin's failure to develop. you will never get me to agree to the fol: "well yea....everything we witnessed over the last two years was eff'd up beyond belief (which it was), but none of this impacted griffin's chances for developing into a quality QB." sorry.....but that's really, really, really bad systems analysis.

I'm sorry you wasted 40 minutes of your life putting that down, as if I am not fully aware of what's gone on and what the dynamics are. We're all aware. The argument I have with you is very simple - you want to make Gruden and the 'culture' there the fall guy for Griffin's failure. I'm arguing that while Griffin had a lot of help getting where he is today, ultimately he's shown (to date) that he can't adjust his game to meet the needs of Gruden's offense. I think that mostly has to do with Griffin's abilities, not the barriers (that all NFL QB's have to overcome btw). We can disagree, but this isn't about my lack of understanding of organizational dynamics, the importance of culture, the negative impact of dysfunction or poor leadership. I'm pretty savvy on all of that - actually as qualified to speak to those things as anyone in this board based on life experience alone.

I also am not making the simplistic argument that we can't know because we aren't the coaches - I'm saying that drawing conclusions based in impartial information is always risky. I'm not the one indicting a 2nd year coach for all that's wrong with this team, and ignoring his possible part in some of the improvements.

To sum it up, Griffins problem is Griffin. Jay Gruden may be a selfish incompetent prick - but if Griffin was capable of playing consistently well, he'd still be the starter. Period.


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