The Turn Around

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Williams, to me, is just Kirk Cousins, part Duex. For some reason, our biggest names don't seem to want to stay here. That's a problem. It needs to stop.
Henry, I was totally on board until you got to this. Nothing about this is "Kirk Cousins, part Duex". Nothing.

  1. Cousins was drafted late and behind a guy playing the same position who had been anointed as the Promised One on draft day. Trent was drafted in the first round and was himself the anointed one.
  2. Cousins got low balled in contract talks after proving himself better than Griffin. Trent has always been treated like an asset in contract talks.
  3. Cousins was a young-for-the-position guy with most of his career ahead of him. Trent is 31, with 9 seasons under his belt, playing a position where guys just don't play a whole lot longer.
  4. Cousins was a guy rarely hurt. Trent has two 16 game seasons in his pro career and the last one of those was 2013. For the last 3 years he has played an average of 11.6 games a season.
  5. Cousins wanted to be paid like a Top 5 QB without being a Top 5 QB. Trent has been a Top 5 LT (maybe best when healthy) for years and has been paid that way for years.
  6. Cousins wanted out because he got his feelings hurt. Trent, assuming the report are anywhere near correct, wants out because his body is hurt and he fears it becoming permanent due to the medical care the team provides.

I'm not saying I agree with Trent's stance because I don't. He signed a very lucrative contract that pays him more for one game than most of us can hope to make in years of work. He should be honoring his word. However, drawing a parallel between Cousins and Trent is a false equivalency.
 
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ntotoro

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7) Trent is one joint away from a one-year suspension.
 

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Henry, I was totally on board until you got to this. Nothing about this is "Kirk Cousins, part Duex". Nothing.

  1. Cousins was drafted late and behind a guy playing the same position who had been anointed as the Promised One on draft day. Trent was drafted in the first round and was himself the anointed one.
  2. Cousins got low balled in contract talks after proving himself better than Griffin. Trent has always been treated like an asset in contract talks.
  3. Cousins was a young-for-the-position guy with most of his career ahead of him. Trent is 31, with 9 seasons under his belt, playing a position where guys just don't play a whole lot longer.
  4. Cousins was a guy rarely hurt. Trent has two 16 game seasons in his pro career and the last one of those was 2013. For the last 3 years he has played an average of 11.6 games a season.
  5. Cousins wanted to be paid like a Top 5 QB without being a Top 5 QB. Trent has been a Top 5 LT (maybe best when healthy) for years and has been paid that way for years.
  6. Cousins wanted out because he got his feelings hurt. Trent, assuming the report are anywhere near correct, wants out because his body is hurt and he fears it becoming permanent due to the medical care the team provides.

I'm not saying I agree with Trent's stance because I don't. He signed a very lucrative contract that pays him more for one game than most of us can hope to make in years of work. He should be honoring his word. However, drawing a parallel between Cousins and Trent is a false equivalency.
Those are great points. I have to confess that even for me, Henry's point that TW is yet another critical player who has suddenly decided he doesn't want to be here, resonated. It was actually the first thought I had when I heard he wasn't reporting. And I'm worried about Scherff as well.

You're right though that other than that, the situations really don't have much in common.

Except maybe both guys desiring to get a huge payday and being willing to screw the team that drafted them to get it.


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Williams was here for 9 years on a team that lost more than it won. To me it was surprising he didn't request a trade several years ago before signing his second contract.

The fact he is trying to orchestrate his departure now the way he is doing makes him look bad.

Are the Steelers really responsible for mistreating Antonio Brown?

Does the fact he and Bell left saying nothing but negative things mean the Steelers are a bad organization?

The fact Brown is now with the dysfunctional Raiders and Bell is with a team in the Jets that hasn't won anything since 1969 speaks volumes about their decision making.

That said, I think you are seeing younger players like Jonathan Allen and Daron Payne and profile free agents like Collins make a visible point of supporting being here in DC.

The Redskins team in 2019 is much different from the one in 2010 or 2012.

Younger, more reliant on draft picks and less willing to spend big dollars on players hitting 30.

Guys like Trent and Ryan Kerrigan probably believe they deserve a bit extra at the end of their careers for taking all the losing.

But the fact remains both players have been very well compensated and in line with the best players at their positions.

The Redskins are not going to further extend Williams, Kerrigan or Josh Norman at this point.

The team is in fact looking to draft and groom their successors, which good teams regularly do.

I suppose that Trent is so used to the Redskins throwing away money on free agents in past years that he just expected the team to come to him, and when it didn't his feelings were hurt.
 

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I'm not saying I agree with Trent's stance because I don't. He signed a very lucrative contract that pays him more for one game than most of us can hope to make in years of work. He should be honoring his word. However, drawing a parallel between Cousins and Trent is a false equivalency.
Neo, every player is unique, and every situation is different. Where are the same, to me, is that both of them had/have more leverage than the average player, and both have tried/are trying to use that leverage to leave, going so far as to suggest no amount of money can keep them here. Either the Redskins have just run into some terrible luck with uniquely greedy, selfish players, or there's a pattern forming here.

Now, knowing the Redskins as well as I do, I am of the opinion it's the latter. But that's just my opinion. Again, I'm very interested to see what happens with Scherff.
 
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Rymanofthenorth

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here is my take,

snyder isnt a bad owner, he spends money and isnt afraid to take chances, where he makes mistakes is where he places his faith. he needs to spend money on the scouting department period.

we need
a coach who cam scheme with the players he has and who will work with a great GM who can find players to fit his system to eventually run his system at a high level.

a GM who can find talent and fit that talent to a scheme this sounds easy but it really isnt. why are other teams finding so many diamonds in the rough and then polishing them?

a coaching staff who can teach young players how to get better and motivate middle age players to play.
 

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Ry....I usually support your posts...but gotta part ways on this one.

I've read and have friends who incessantly repeat the "Snyder isn't that bad...he spends a lotta cash" mantra. My resposne is "so what?" I think the evidence is manfestly clear that Snyder's sweet spot is marketing. Throwing cash at a problem is obviously not s sure-fire path to success - we have seen that for, oh, two decades now!! There is no doubt that Snyder was a HORRENDOUS owner for at least the first 10 years, maybe longer, of his stewardship. As the owner of an Enterprise that produces a product - a football team - I believe he has been a massive failure. The fielded product doesn't and hasn't met performance expectations - ever - under his tenure.

Snyder did not build the Redskins from concept to product. He bought an established product. What has he done with it after all these years? IMO...not a damn thing (other than milk fans for money). In many ways, he has turned the franchise into a dsyfunctional object of derision. In the end, it all boils down to the person at the top: the vision, the goals, the culture, the management team, strategic decision-making, accountability. Under his tenure, we have yet to move from former high end winner to consistent contender. I simply don't think he is owner "material". Whatever the intangibles are - he manifestly isn't blessed with these gifts from a football industry pov.
 

Rymanofthenorth

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I dont think the record of this team is on snyder as much as he does annoy me, the issue is that we have only ever had 3 real football minds, gibbs, gibbs 2 and shottenheimer. but for some reason snyder didnt put his faith in them and let then run the show, im not including our alchoholic friend as he didnt do what i thought he would.

if he never hires a real GM, and never gets a good team president than I will agree with you. and yeah the time is running out lol
 

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I think, looking at the last 3 drafts, that we don't have a football mind somewhere at Redskins Park right now. I'm with several others here in that I think our last 3 drafts have been perhaps the best work our front office has done since Bethard ran the show. Granted, that is without a great body of work from which to gauge but on the surface, all 3 smell a lot better than any other drafts in years.
 

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Things have definitely improved from when McCloughan was here.

Preston Smith - mild bust. Never really established himself as consistent threat.

Josh Doctson - bust. Why acquire receivers that don't get separation in college?

Su'a Cravens - guy didn't have the necessary commitment to play. Showed that in college. We take him in Round 2?

Josh Norman - boy, was this contract an overpayment. Norman has been among the top 3-4 paid corners in NFL despite being a top 30-40 player.

Matt Jones - complete bust

Brandon Scherff was Scot's only real success story and we used that #5 overall pick for a LT/RT and ended up with a guard.

Pretty pricey spot for a position Belichick fills with #3 and #4 rounders.
 

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Conventional wisdom is so often wrong. Can you imagine the shit storm had one of us predicted that the chosen one, McCloughan, would dick it all up beyond belief and that it would take firing him and Bruce and Company assuming control to get us some real draft talent?

Of course the response will be ‘Bruce Allen has had nothing to do with our recent draft success!'

Which is more conventional wisdom...


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I think with the identifying areas that need improvement in player acquisition we first need to know who's responsible for what. Looking at the skins front office link I'm still confused as to who does what exactly. IMHO our drafting has gotten much better over the last few years. Granted we've been horrible at it forever it seems, but we've honestly upgraded our drafting.

https://www.redskins.com/team/front-office-roster/

Where we seem to have the current problems are holding on to injury prone players longer than we should, and 'possibly' not valuing our own guys. Scherff should have been signed months ago and Trent's situation should have been quelled by educating him on 2nd opinions with medical OR by trading his ass to whomever for max possible value. Both of these issues appear to be on Bruce in my eyes, though I could be completely wrong here all the same.

Another issue I see is with Jay, especially the in-game playcalling because he sucks at it. Can't recall which thread or post but it was one that basically stated there's a conglomerate as to who calls plays. Jay seems to also be constantly lacking with game preparation, the continuous mistakes, non adjustments, penalties, etc. I'm willing to give him this season but if we shit the bed and finish below .500 again it's time to look elsewhere.

Fixing the FO identity solidifies our player additions and decides the proper ones to keep while coaching accountability fixes the on field product. IMO we're trending in the correct direction with drafts but getting worse on holding on to vets. This season should answer the HC question though if we need to move on, this may bring up another issue. Do we really want Haskins learning another offense already?

My solution would be to promote the main figures involved with the last couple of drafts and either move Bruce to a meet and greet role or marketing while stripping his president title. If Jay leaves give the offense to Callahan and make subtle changes as needed.
 
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Henry

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Before we get too enthusiastic trashing McLoughan, lets not forget Fuller, Ioannidis, Crowder, Spaight, Kouandjio ... the aforementioned Smith and Scherff. He brought in plenty of starters and contributors. Many of then have left for other teams but thats more due to Allen's management decisions than McLoughan's ‘bad' drafting. Just saying.
 

Boone

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Before we get too enthusiastic trashing McLoughan, lets not forget Fuller, Ioannidis, Crowder, Spaight, Kouandjio ... the aforementioned Smith and Scherff. He brought in plenty of starters and contributors. Many of then have left for other teams but thats more due to Allen's management decisions than McLoughan's ‘bad' drafting. Just saying.
Too late. Already enthusiastic!

I keed, but I do think you're being generous. Here's my thing. I don't know if Bruce Allen has had anything to do with the drafts since sending McCloughan packing, but at a minimum the team he put in place has.

That's growth and let's hope they can keep it going.

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Henry

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Too late. Already enthusiastic!

I keed, but I do think you're being generous. Here's my thing. I don't know if Bruce Allen has had anything to do with the drafts since sending McCloughan packing, but at a minimum the team he put in place has.

That's growth and let's hope they can keep it going.
I don't think I'm being any more generous than those who think a few promising-looking drafts mean Bruce Allen is turning things around here. At the time McLoughan's drafts looked just as promising as these past few. I remember. I was there :). But part of the problem is that even when we draft ok we don't keep enough of our guys. That's been an issue for 20 years, and it's still an issue. Look at my list again. Half of those guys are gone ... not because they suck, but because they are playing for other teams. Jimmy Moreland looks great this preseason! What's the over/under on how many seasons he plays here? I'd say four.

Again, the Scherff situation will be very telling. I know we're trying to downplay his importance because he was a McLoughan pick and all, but he's one of the best Guards in the game. Top five easy. Probably top three. He's been sitting on the Line with one of the best Tackles in the game right now. Are either of them staying here? We don't know. We may end up rebuilding the OL on the fly during Haskins' developmental years. With a new coach.

I don't know. I am glad that the team seems to be placing more importance on the draft than it did, say, ten years ago. But "our last few draft are really awesome!" is the battle-cry of crappy teams everywhere. I suggest caution. :)
 

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Once Kyle Smith gets "Sean McVayed" into a GM position elsewhere, we will be back to being perennial bottom feeders.
JKC hired the best GM he could find in Beathard, then allowed Beathard to hire a coach. Snyder is obsessed with coaches, and barely gives an afterthought to the GM position.
Haslam was an even bigger joke than Dannyboy, but at least he learned from his mistakes and hired Dorsey. The friggin Browns will reach the SB long before the Redskins sniff the big game. Irsay is a drug addict, but even his dopeass had enough sense to hire Polian. Do you think ANYONE in the NFL would EVER Hire Brucifer Prince of Dimness after he is exorcised from here?
When the current regime is let go, Dannyboy will revert to his old pattern and pay a king's ransom for a former big name coach and hand over complete control of personnel to the coach...and everyone will say "oh, he's finally learning" even though it's the same template that has repeatedly failed.
I am a year older than Snyder, therefore it is extremely unlikely I will live to see any Redskins future sustainable success.
 

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Wow guys. Please eat something - a hunger strike never solves anything :)

I obviously get your perspectives. While I understand that talent isn't talent until it produces consistently in games that matter, I really like what I'm seeing with this roster and the youth movement.

Excited to see how things look in a year or two.

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Bulldog

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Whiffing on 3 of the top 4 picks from 2015 and 2016 set the team back - Smith, Doctson, Cravens.

That may be on McCloughan but the Kirk fiasco also set the team back and that is largely on Bruce.

We could have traded Cousins before the 2016 draft and moved on with a DeShaun Watson instead of having to trade for a 35 year old Smith and give him a ludicrous extension that tied a young team's cap to an older player who was not going to be here when the Allens, Paynes, etc are in their prime.

I think the improvements in the draft are largely due to Campbell moving on and Smith taking a more active role.

I think the additional dollars spent on extra scouts which was clearly needed also helped the team make better choices.
 

Boone

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I've always felt like Bruce Allen was just a political glad-hander and not a football GM. But he apparently let McLovin drive the draft room (for better or worse) and now that we have more competent talent evaluators is seemingly staying out of their way. I don't think anyone can deny that the Cousins debacle was a mess. Cousins drove a lot of it but the team took a pretty bizarre approach franchising the guy twice with no good exit strategy.and then Redskins karma hit. I'd love to see them either move on from Bruce but more realistically maybe nudge him towards business stuff only and replace him with Smith or someone else football savvy. The one question I have is what impact Doug Williams is having? I really don't have a bead on that.


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Bulldog

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It appears Bruce takes a more active role in free agency and trades and lets the FO guys make most of the picks.
 

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