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Step 1 of the Experiment Is a Success

McKissic for the win

Bulldog

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Grossman is 6'0 and as you saw yesterday he gets a lot of passes batted at the line, might be another reason he is prone to interceptions to the outside down the field.

His arm is strong enough to play in the NFL but if he were 6'2 or 6'3 I think you would be talking about a much more effective player.

That said, how many teams have backup quarterbacks that can come in cold off the bench having played hardly at all for 2 years - and put up a 322 passing day with 4 touchdowns?
 

fansince62

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I think the picture that is emerging is one where the coaching staff did not properly evaluate Donovan McNabb but went off his resume in making the deal and figured that #5 would adapt to the offense here and make a commitment to change to make it successful.

The other half of the picture is a 34 year old quarterback who is set in his ways, doesn't accept coaching in re any fundamentals or technique and wants the system to revolve around the 'pet' plays that Reid ran for him in Philly.

The resistance to any change on the part of McNabb is one of the biggest reasons the Redskins offense didn't improve from the beginning of the season.

He looked no more comfortable over 60 minutes against the Eagles or Giants than he did in earlier games against the Rams or Lions.

Once it became apparent that McNabb and the offense were in a holding pattern Shanahan (Sr.) had to take action to break the log-jam.

There was no way the team could go into 2011 with a quarterback that was treating his time here as a first step into retirement with pay.

Again, I think McNabb will be in the NFL for another couple of years. But he is no longer an elite player. He is in that 18-25 range of starting quarterbacks, and you aren't going to contend consistently with that type of player.

Ditto for Rex. Rex is not going to ascend to be a top 10-12 quarterback. But because he has been a backup for the past couple of years I think he is more realistic about what to expect at age 30 in the NFL.

McNabb is still looking at himself as the irreplaceable element, which he WAS for the Eagles 3 or 4 years ago.

But I think last year showed the Eagles that Donovan was on the decline and his decreased mobility made him into a pocket passer whose strong suit was never accuracy.

lot of psychology going on here which may or may not be accurate. here's what I remember

- an absolutely horrid O-line that no QB could function well behind; DM creating plays with his legs

- a team that was getting leadership from DM and winning despite average performances; something that collapsed once o-line injuries accelerated the decline of that unit

- no real running game except for when Torrain was able to get onto the field

- DM unable to make the short passes and not seeing open receivers repeatedly

I agree that DM wasn't running the offense as KS wanted and that the scheme was altered to support more bootlegs and a deeper downfield passing game. but a lot of factors played into that.

watching Grossman is going to be a painful experience. he just doesn't look like a pro QB out there with that throwing motion.
 

Henry

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I guess the question still is: Was in an indictment on the coach or the player that the 6-time pro-bowler had a career-worst season under the two-time superbowl winner?

I don't think the answer can be that it's all McNabb's fault. McNabb has proven capable of carrying an offense. If he didn't adapt his play-style to Shanahan's offense then, yes, shame on McNabb. But you know what? Shame on Shanahan too. We all KNOW McNabb can play better than this, and as recently as a year ago. If 'winning now' was SO blasted important that Shanahan was willing to give up picks for this guy, he should have after a few games been able to tailor the offense to McNabb's strengths. Maybe when we were, say, 4-3 and had a chance to do something this year? If Shanahan was going to get all high and mighty about doing things his way he shouldn't have picked up a guy who did things some other way.

Yay for Grossman for not completely sucking yesterday. But I can say with the utmost certainty that McNabb at his best is better than Grossman at his best. We should have seen more games like this from McNabb. That we didn't is on our coach and personnel guy. Who happen to be the same person.
 

fansince62

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I guess the question still is: Was in an indictment on the coach or the player that the 6-time pro-bowler had a career-worst season under the two-time superbowl winner?

I don't think the answer can be that it's all McNabb's fault. McNabb has proven capable of carrying an offense. If he didn't adapt his play-style to Shanahan's offense then, yes, shame on McNabb. But you know what? Shame on Shanahan too. We all KNOW McNabb can play better than this, and as recently as a year ago. If 'winning now' was SO blasted important that Shanahan was willing to give up picks for this guy, he should have after a few games been able to tailor the offense to McNabb's strengths. Maybe when we were, say, 4-3 and had a chance to do something this year? If Shanahan was going to get all high and mighty about doing things his way he shouldn't have picked up a guy who did things some other way.

Yay for Grossman for not completely sucking yesterday. But I can say with the utmost certainty that McNabb at his best is better than Grossman at his best. We should have seen more games like this from McNabb. That we didn't is on our coach and personnel guy. Who happen to be the same person.
concur. but...if this is all a pretext to drafting a QB and setting up a trade for DM...ok by me.
 

Henry

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concur. but...if this is all a pretext to drafting a QB and setting up a trade for DM...ok by me.
Sure. Though my confidence in our current front office's ability to identify a player with the proper skill set is not particularly high at the moment. :)
 

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Nope. Everyone from the GM down to the guys on the practice squad are all in the same boat of having to prove themselves in 2011, including Shanahan.
 

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Sure. Though my confidence in our current front office's ability to identify a player with the proper skill set is not particularly high at the moment. :)
I'm not a fan of Shanny's personnel skills. However, in this case I suspect he understood McNabb's skills, strengths and weaknesses pretty well and decided to take a calculated risk on McNabb's professionalism and desire to finally win that elusive SB. Given McNabb's body of work and reputation combined with Shanny's prior experience "fixing" Jake Plummer, it probably wasn't an unreasonable risk. Too bad for him and us that Shanny rolled snake eyes this time.
 

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I don't believe that McNabb wanted to learn a new system. Like Brett Favre, I think he wanted to move from team to team and have each of them allow him to stick to the scheme that first made him successful.

In that regard, he was a non-confrontational and more classy version of Albert Haynesworth.
 

Henry

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I'm not a fan of Shanny's personnel skills. However, in this case I suspect he understood McNabb's skills, strengths and weaknesses pretty well and decided to take a calculated risk on McNabb's professionalism and desire to finally win that elusive SB. Given McNabb's body of work and reputation combined with Shanny's prior experience "fixing" Jake Plummer, it probably wasn't an unreasonable risk. Too bad for him and us that Shanny rolled snake eyes this time.
In this case Shanahan thought we had enough talent on the team to win now. He thought bringing in Willie Parker, Larry Johnson and Joey Galloway would be enough to plug in a few holes to keep us competitive. He thought we could switch to a 3-4 defense and remain competitive. This goes WAY beyond McNabb. He rolled snake eyes about forty times this season.

I'm glad that Shanahan apparently now realizes how bad things are, but I really hope it doesn't take another entirely wasted season for him to take 'step two' ... whatever the hell that will be.
 

Henry

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I don't believe that McNabb wanted to learn a new system. Like Brett Favre, I think he wanted to move from team to team and have each of them allow him to stick to the scheme that first made him successful.

In that regard, he was a non-confrontational and more classy version of Albert Haynesworth.
Really.

Are we really still just going to go through life trashing every single player that doesn't work out in Washington? Because it's getting to be a really really long list. At some point it's not the rest of the world that's the problem, especially when our latest disappointment is a six-time pro-bowl franchise QB one season removed from his second best year as a pro.
 

Bulldog

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I believe that is a fair observation :)

McNabb admitted on his radio show yesterday that he would be more effective when he 'got back to doing what he did well'.

Evidently, that doesn't include running the system that his OC and HC want to run.

I indicated that I thought McNabb HAS handled this well to this point and is not a guy like Haynesworth that is going to cause unnecessary distractions.

And he didn't trade himself here from Philly. So, the Shanahans are not off the hook in my book.

But the bottom line is that Dononvan is resistant to buying into the scheme. His reluctance and hesitation DOES have an effect on the offense and its productivity.

Didn't Haynesworth admit similar concerns with scheme? The difference is that Haynesworth took a blow torch to exacerbating those issues and made life miserable for everyone at Redskins Park, including his teammates.

Donovan to his credit didn't do that.

And for that reason I wish him well with his next team. A 34 year old quarterback like McNabb can still be effective in the NFL, but like Favre, he has to go to a team that is willing to run a system that is familiar to him. He does not have the shelf life to sit and take 2 years to learn a new scheme and way of doing things.

A trade for mid round pick is the best case for both sides here.

Admit the mistake and move on. I think this should be an amicable divorce.
 

Henry

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Haynesworth asked for a trade after taking big money. McNabb signed a VERY team-friendly contract and was then benched and is now at the team's mercy. Haynesworth didn't show up to workouts. McNabb doesn't miss workouts. Haynesworth has been publicly critical of the team on several occasions. McNabb has been publicly criticized and humiliated by the team on several occasions. Haynesworth wasn't that good LAST year. McNabb was a pro-bowler last year.

There's no comparison here. It's completely unfair to compare McNabb to Albert. The only way you can is if you believe the Shanahans when they publicly criticize McNabb to justify the absolute cluster**** that this situation has become. And sorry, I am completely done siding with The Redskins when they attack players who 'don't fit' here, because that's practically half the league at this point. And I'm done thinking it's everyone but us.
 

Lanky Livingston

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I'm with Henry - McNabb has handled this fiasco very well. Let's look at past players, and how they handled things:

Sanders - retired from the NFL to avoid playing for Washington.
Arrington - vocal ****storm in the media, problems with Snyder became very public, and he actually gave back $6M to leave the team
Coles - bitched and whined about his role in the offense, got sent home with a flat screen TV and eventually traded.
Haynesworthless - not even going to rehash HIS nonsense.

McNabb - has quietly questioned the decision (which any starting QB of his caliber should, IMO) but hasn't alienated any teammates, and could step back into the starting QB spot without really raising any eyebrows. Total class.
 

Rymanofthenorth

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UTEP

Haynesworth asked for a trade after taking big money. McNabb signed a VERY team-friendly contract and was then benched and is now at the team's mercy. Haynesworth didn't show up to workouts. McNabb doesn't miss workouts. Haynesworth has been publicly critical of the team on several occasions. McNabb has been publicly criticized and humiliated by the team on several occasions. Haynesworth wasn't that good LAST year. McNabb was a pro-bowler last year.

There's no comparison here. It's completely unfair to compare McNabb to Albert. The only way you can is if you believe the Shanahans when they publicly criticize McNabb to justify the absolute cluster**** that this situation has become. And sorry, I am completely done siding with The Redskins when they attack players who 'don't fit' here, because that's practically half the league at this point. And I'm done thinking it's everyone but us.
well if we are gonna make the comparison, lets do it fairly.

haynesworth was promised we would use him to the best of his ability, Mcnabb was not.

Haynesworth, when he was brought in was in the top 5 players at his position and still had upside, Mcnabb was clearly on a downswing and has never even been close to the top 5 at his position.

Haynesworth last year was misused and still among the best in the league at his position despite that, Mcnabb was catered to last year by the eagles and still had one of his less effective years.

Haynesworth was very open and honest about his dislike for the system and never pretended otherwise, he did make an attempt to come in and do what was asked of him, but that was after he openly derided the 3-4 and pissed off shanny so yeah, it was too little too late, meanwhile Mcnabb said all the right things and then simply refused to play within the system to the point where he was benched.

Both players had very obvious skillsets and very obvious deficiencies, however Albert when used correctly is a top 5 defencive player in the NFL, Mcnabb when used correctly is a solid to good QB, pretty big difference there.

The real difference here tho, is nothing more than PR, Mcnabb knows how to play the game, say all the right things and then just do what you want, while Albert made the mistake early on of being honest and then later of of being obviously dishonest.

Either way, I agree with you Henry, there have been too many free agents now who have said they were misled by the skins to sign here, im still very angry that we mishandled Jason Taylor so badly.
 

Henry

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I really don't care enough about Haynesworth to get into it with you about him, Ryman. It's clear you've got some emotional investment in the guy that I just don't. So be it.

However, I don't agree that McNabb was 'less effective' than usual in 2009. He went to the pro bowl last year and went 10-4 as a starter. It was amongst his best years in passing yardage, completion percentage, TD percentage, TDs, yards per attempt and completion, and passer rating.

He was coming off one of his best years ever when we traded for him. And this year is by far his worst full season as a pro, and it's not even close.

Coincidence I guess. :)
 

Rymanofthenorth

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2000 and 2003 were pretty close in those years his rating was 77 and 79.

he has a sort of resgurgence last year after declining visibly the previous two years but his almost career low ypc of 3.8 showed he wasnt that dynamic anymore and he was sacmed more than almost every season previous with 35.

I am invested in Haynesworth, we havent had a dominant DT for more tha one season since Butz, and we have been putrid at DT for a long time (griffin was solid but not a true game changer) after suffereing for that long on defence I finally thought we turned the corner when we grabbed AH and then drafted Rak, that should be a cornerstone for an elite Dline for a decade. now I get to watch a few more years of putrid defence , yay me.
 

Bulldog

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if you are a Redskins fan the bottom line is the same :)

Haynesworth AND McNabb need to be moved.

Neither one will be successful here in the schemes the coaches are running.

Shanahan isn't responsible for Haynesworth's contract or his coming to the Redskins. But he IS responsible for his CONTINUED presence beyond the point where any good was going to come of it.

Shanahan IS responsible for McNabb being on the roster, period. He traded for him and if I were the owner I would want an explanation of the thought process involved in the decision. I would not necessarily mind flushing the money, but I would want to be sure this kind of mistake didn't happen again.
 

fansince62

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if you are a Redskins fan the bottom line is the same :)

Haynesworth AND McNabb need to be moved.

Neither one will be successful here in the schemes the coaches are running.

Shanahan isn't responsible for Haynesworth's contract or his coming to the Redskins. But he IS responsible for his CONTINUED presence beyond the point where any good was going to come of it.

Shanahan IS responsible for McNabb being on the roster, period. He traded for him and if I were the owner I would want an explanation of the thought process involved in the decision. I would not necessarily mind flushing the money, but I would want to be sure this kind of mistake didn't happen again.
they flushed away draft picks. they now have ownership in future difficulties resurrecting this Phoenix.
 

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