RUMOR: Vinny in DC for "the long term."

[Om]

Om, I would argue we did have a QB when Snyder bought the team. A guy by the name of Brad Johnson. He got run out of town following the "Year of Big Names" so we could bring in Jeff George. I am not saying he was a franchise guy like Favre, Manning, Brady or Brees but he was solid and dependable and could run the offense on the field the way the coaches wanted it run.

But he didn't have a big enough name for Mr. Snyder. George did. The rest is history.

Brad was big-time in the first half of '99, but tired and by the end of the year his arm was a noodle. His questionable decision-making (which trailed him his entire career) also arguably cost the Redskins a berth in the NFC Championship when he thread an inexcusably brain-dean INT into coverage that turned a game the Redskins were in control of around. His season numbers (4000 yards,

In 2000, in 12 games he threw for 2500 yards (208/gm), 11 TD's and 15 INT's.

Not excusing the first-year owner's impetuousness and infatuation with Cement Head George, but frankly, I was not one who thought seeing Johnson leave town after the 2000 was a bad thing. He went on to great success in Tampa for three years, where an all-time great defense allowed him to be a game-manager type and rarely be counted on to provide offensive firepower himself.

Not trying to rag on Brad here, just hoping to keep a bright line distinction between the Brad Johnson who actually played here in DC, and the kind of "big time" NFL QB I'm talking about ... guys like Favre, Brees, Brady, McNabb, the Mannings, and even slightly lower-tier guys like Rivers, Cutler, Palmer.

We haven't had a guy like that first group since Jurgensen (Joey T was pretty damn good for a few years in the early 80's, but not on that level). We don't necessarily need a HOFer to make us relevant, but we do need at least a guy who can 3-4 times a year put an otherwise pretty solid team on his shoulders and win a close game.

 

[Om]

Actually, Snyder brought in Johnson I'm pretty sure. The franchise QB that Snyder ran off was by the name of Trent Green.

I don't believe that's the case brother. As I recall, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Green got caught up in the JKC / Millstein / Snyder ownership transfer. His contract was up and he didn't have the luxury of waiting on the ownership issue to work its way through the NFL before seeing if the eventual new Redskins owner would pay him what he was looking for.

Circumstance caused Green to skip town--not The Dan. Green left when it started getting too late in the offseason to wait any longer.

 

[Neophyte]

Not trying to rag on Brad here, just hoping to keep a bright line distinction between the Brad Johnson who actually played here in DC, and the kind of "big time" NFL QB I'm talking about ... guys like Favre, Brees, Brady, McNabb, the Mannings, and even slightly lower-tier guys like Rivers, Cutler, Palmer.

If you notice, I specifically said he wasn't in the league of several of the guys you mention here. I would note though that Brad did not have the weapons here in 1999 that are available here now or that most of the guys listed above have. Moss, Cooley and Portis are superior to anyone playing with Johnson on that 99 offense. Of course, the real problem is that our line is worse and Johnson is a statue.

He had his issues, no doubt, but he was a legit NFL starter. That was the point I was trying to make.

We haven't had a guy like that first group since Jurgensen (Joey T was pretty damn good for a few years in the early 80's, but not on that level). We don't necessarily need a HOFer to make us relevant, but we do need at least a guy who can 3-4 times a year put an otherwise pretty solid team on his shoulders and win a close game.

I will give you this, although I think Ryp was pretty good too, right up until they decided to change the offense to something he was not good at doing.

 

[riggins44]

I don't believe that's the case brother. As I recall, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Green got caught up in the JKC / Millstein / Snyder ownership transfer. His contract was up and he didn't have the luxury of waiting on the ownership issue to work its way through the NFL before seeing if the eventual new Redskins owner would pay him what he was looking for.

Circumstance caused Green to skip town--not The Dan. Green left when it started getting too late in the offseason to wait any longer.

Timing is correct. He left after '98 season. I thought it was because someone on Rams staff came from here and knew him, so either traded or signed him as a FA. This was beginning of greatest show on turf. Green was doing great in preseason and was injured...rest is history.

 

[Neophyte]

Correct you are sir. That someone was named Mike Martz and he had been the Skins QB coach in 97 and 98 before being hired as the Rams Offensive Coordinator in 99. So not just anyone from the Skins but Green's position coach.

 

[Hog Fever]

I understand where you’re going OM and I agree with your assessment that having a franchise QB is the best way to put a consistent winner on the field. There are of course examples where teams have gone on to have a lot of success, even win Super Bowls without a franchise signal caller. I’m not going to list them all as I’m sure you know the names as well or better than I do. You also alluded to Gibbs, who did it here in DC three times with guys who were cast offs or projects.

My point is a good coach will maximize the abilities of the players at his disposal. I’m sure Gibbs would have loved to install the Coryell offense he was familiar with when he took over. Alas Joe Theisman was no Dan Fouts. The AFC West was no NFC East. He was able to make adjustments to the players he had on hand and the typ of game he had to play to win. Yes, there was a method to his madness and there was an offensive philosophy there, but he wasn’t so locked in that he tried to make the players into something they weren’t. You didn’t see Ryp running the option.

Clearly it’s not to that level here, but given the current situation there can only be two schools of thought. Either we simply don’t have the players, in which case it’s impossible not to blame the GM (except we don’t have one), or you have to blame the coach for not using the talent he is given correctly. If a franchise QB is the issue then it’s been one we have yet to address adequately the entire Snyder tenure.

If the problem for us was simply finding a QB to run the WCO, and we KNEW Jason was clearly not the answer, there were other options before the season started. Jeff Garcia was available and certainly knows how to run the WCO. There were several other WCO cast offs who weren’t even brought into camp to give them a look. None would be a long term answer of course but if you wanted Jason replaced, why try to hide it after the fact? Bring someone else in and don’t waste the entire season. They didn’t do that. In addition they seem unwilling or unable to modify their approach to suit Jason’s talents. That would be a coaching issue.

So one way or another we have a problem. Either management is unwilling or unable to bring in players who can run the system the coach wants to run, or the coaches are unwilling or incapable of modifying their system to suit the talent on hand. There is a breakdown somewhere. Yes, we’re 2-2 (yip yip horary), but we all know the team has looked like poop and we’re going to get smacked around by decent competition.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

I don't believe that's the case brother. As I recall, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Green got caught up in the JKC / Millstein / Snyder ownership transfer. His contract was up and he didn't have the luxury of waiting on the ownership issue to work its way through the NFL before seeing if the eventual new Redskins owner would pay him what he was looking for.

Circumstance caused Green to skip town--not The Dan. Green left when it started getting too late in the offseason to wait any longer.

Yeah, you are right. Snyder bought the team in May 99, Green signed with St. Louis in February 99. I just think Green has ESP and could see what the mighty-midget was going to do to the team. :silly:

 

[Om]

HF,

I don't really disagree. Back when I used to write a blog ( ) I wrote a piece I think fits here in response better than anything I could dash off this morning. By your leave ...

http://www.theomfield.com/2009/03/redskins-feeling-cold-draft.html

 

[Hog Fever]

I remember that one OM (and it’s right on the money). It looks like I’m preaching to the choir. What is the fascination with converting DE’s to LBs? The positions play right beside each other but the skill sets are NOT the same. Every time I see Orakpo in coverage it just makes me…….UGGGGHHH!

When we see the same mistakes made over and over again it becomes a bit of a joke. Are they expecting different results? Are they just hoping everything will work out or trying to catch lightning in a bottle? I have no idea. I know every hole cannot be filled every year but to not address key positions through the draft except as an afterthought is unforgivable.

There are a couple of realities that have come about in the salary cap era, at least to me. First is the need to have a franchise QB if you want sustained success. Second is that you must effectively build through the draft. We have done neither. Joe was able to smoke and mirror us a couple of playoff appearances in his comeback appearance but I’m not holding my breath for a repeat performance from this group.

 

[servumtuum]

Following this discussion, the phrase "trying to fit a square peg in a round hole" keeps running through my mind. A decision was made to adopt the WCO, or some version thereof and essentially retro-fit it to a team built around the Gibbs/Coryell system. Some of the elements almost fit-Zorn was hired due to his exposure to a WCO system to assist in the retro-fit. C. Portis, who had been rebuilt into a Gibbs power runner has worked well because he's just that good. As Om has pointed out, the weak link is Campbell-he's not a WCO QB-his deficiencies-mainly inability to make quick decisions-simply don't seem to work in a WCO oriented attack. (Om mentioned Tom Brady as an example earlier-in JC's defense I will have to mention that Brady takes as long usually as Jason to throw the ball but can get away with it because he's so well protected-which JC isn't).

O.K., -if the one's who decided to use the WCO want it to work here, why do they seem to continually seem to overlook the player/coaching components necessary to make it work?

Jim Zorn wasn't brought in as HC and bring the WCO with him and build his WCO oriented team-he was a QB coach in a WCO system, brought in ostensibly as OC then a couple of weeks later elevated to HC due to "difficulties" in finding a HC and told to coach a WCO team.. Was he given a doable job considering the personnel and his relative lack of experience?

If Campbell wasn't working why didn't they go ahead and find his replacement during the QB hunt last year?

Why, all of a sudden now, does Sherm Lewis show up as extra "eyes" to help diagnose what the problems are?

Teams with competent GM's have that GM to provide the answers to questions such as these and to provide solutions to problems-that's their job.

My conclusion? The role of GM for the Redskins is being performed poorly and in a manner that seems like repeated attempts to, as I said earlier "fit a square peg into a round hole"-which brings the circle back to the organization running the team-Daniel Snyder and Vincent Cerrato-sorry, Om, I can't help but place the responsibility on those two sets of shoulders.

 

[Hog Fever]

Not much doubt about it. We could debate back and forth who makes the final call in Redskin Park or how involved Dan is in the day to day operations of the team. In the end none of us know with 100% accuracy, but it doesn’t matter. The buck stops with Dan.

I have absolutely no doubt that Dan wants to have a winner here in DC. I also have no doubt that he has no idea of how to make that happen. Ultimately the decisions are by him or are made by people he puts in charge. If it weren’t for the two unlikely playoff runs by Gibbs his tenure as owner would be looked at as more of a failure than it already is. (Don’t look it up, it’s 48-52)

The players don’t fit the system? I’d say that responsibility falls on the GM.

The coach is not the right man for the job? I’d say the responsibility falls on the organization who selected him: GM, Owner or Astrological Chart, whatever.

We don’t draft well? GM

Overspending on free agents? GM.

On and on and on ………

See a pattern here? Dan is resistant to actually naming a person (a GM) who has the responsibilities that has left the team in such sad shape. We all know that Vinny plays a large part in all of this but the team is purposely vague as to what his role is. Why? What purpose could that possibly serve? It leads to speculation, and rightfully so, that there is no captain steering this ship, or it's Dan himself through a puppet. While speculation rages around him, Vinny remains Teflon. Is he doing a good job? Dan must think so.

The way Zorn was hired (before a head coach was hired) and then promoted was a joke. I’m pulling for the guy but what other team would do something like that? And we wonder why this team is viewed as somewhat of a joke in league circles. If all of this chaos produced a good team there would be no problem, but it always seems to produce the same underachieving mess we have year after year.

So we’ll fire the coach, who probably shouldn’t have been there anyway, or we’ll blame the QB who does not have the skills to run the offense the coach wants, or the offensive line who is old and talent challenged. No, I’m not falling for that. Dan needs take responsibility for this mess and take action to correct it. Simple as that.