RG may yet suceed, but were the firsts wasted?

[Gulf Coast Redskin]

Well, I would gladly trade Griffin and a 3rd to get either Russell Wilson or Nick Foles plus all of our other picks back. I HATED the trade when it happened, but thought I had been completely wrong once the 2012 season took off. Now, I just don't see him lasting more than 5 years in the NFL.
Just remember, it could be worse. Holmgren used his 2 1sts to draft Trent Richardson and Brandon Weeden. Would you trade Kirk Cousins and AlMo for those two?

No way. I'm thankful that we never traded Cousins away at all.

 

[stevenaa]

I think we have a top-flight QB on staff. We just don't know which it will be and I'm having a hard time convincing myself, that the team will get it right. Roberts tenuous health continues to complicate the issue and I fear no matter which way they decide, they'll decide wrong.

 

[Elephant]

Well E that's just flat out not true. Split times from camp said he HAD gotten his burst and top end speed back. That's one that the naysayers have been using that is just a flat out lie, and it's one of the main reasons this debate goes on endlessly. The premise has to be an accurate one or the whole debate is built on a foundation of bullcrap and will never come to an honest conclsuion.

And that 1st play to Young is EXACTLY what they would have called for Griffin, don't be silly. Cousins coming in didn't make a simple fade to the outside more likely than it would have been with Griffin. Wow the spin is just getting epic now.

Can you tell me how many games, practices or pre-season games you've been to this year? Can you tell me how many you attended in person in 2012?

You can make a statement you think is true...fact is I can see it with my own eyes. The man is not as elusive as his rookie year. For you to suggest because he can run a straight line almost as fast in a timed race, does not equate to his ability on the field to avoid the rush the same way he did when he was a rookie.

In fact, my statement has a lot more truth than you give credit because right now, he is in a boot! He isn't running anywhere! He's on the sidelines...again! He isn't running anywhere!

 

[CounterTrey]

I've been to enough to know as much as you do in terms of "the eye test". I also listen to what the coaches are saying about those aspects of his game. Then, I refrain from ever mentioning this because I think it's disrespectful to the confidence I hold, but I actually know someone on the staff who knows these types of things about the states of the player's conditioning better than ANYONE else on the team staff. Don't ask to me to cite his name here it aint happening but it's absolutely rock solid information. Oh and I also just went through ACL reconstructive surgery myself and have had to deal with regenerating atrophied muscles as well as heard the over the top technical breakdown from my surgeon on why I and almost everyone who goes through this procedure now will be back to full speed. So yea I have just a LITTLE bit of factual basis for my stance that certainly isn't trumped by you having gone to a few practices.

 

[Gulf Coast Redskin]

Can you tell me how many games, practices or pre-season games you've been to this year? Can you tell me how many you attended in person in 2012?

You can make a statement you think is true...fact is I can see it with my own eyes. The man is not as elusive as his rookie year. For you to suggest because he can run a straight line almost as fast in a timed race, does not equate to his ability on the field to avoid the rush the same way he did when he was a rookie.

In fact, my statement has a lot more truth than you give credit because right now, he is in a boot! He isn't running anywhere! He's on the sidelines...again! He isn't running anywhere!

I'm sticking to my guns here. I believe that the reason you see less of his "burst" because of the criticism he's received & the fact that the coaches are trying to reprogram him & it's making him question his decision making on every level. That includes whether he should stay in the pocket or leave, whether he should try to run, scramble or look for just one more read...I don't think his legs are the issue. His head is.

 

[Elephant]

CT, I won't ask for names…I will take your word for what you're being told. However, just because you've had the same surgery…a surgery you told us he would be 100% recovered from by the beginning of last season by the way, does not mean you can piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. Are you still going to say RG3 was 100% going into the season last year? Because we all know that just isn't accurate. The ligament may have been, but Robert most certainly was not.

The kid is slower on the field than he was as a rookie, you simply cannot deny that fact. For you to suggest otherwise is simply foolish and calling those of us who see it plain as day liars, does not change that fact. I don't care what the reasoning is behind him being slower, maybe GCS is right and he's holding back, But he is slower and nothing anyone on the team says about his timed sprints can change what EVERYONE sees on the field, announcers at games, fans who sit with me in the front row of the stadium, the pundits on radio…everyone except the organization themselves suggests to you.

 

[CounterTrey]

I'll say exactly what I said ALL along. His knee was medically healed and 100% but he had an entire leg of atrophied muscle he had to regenerate and just like I said it would take time for his burst to come back but come back it would. I can deny that you have any definitive knowledge that his slower play is because of his muscles not being as productive. I can counter with the VERY likely possibility that he is still learning this offense, trying to think instead of react and it's slowing the entire process down. You can theorize on his burst all you want but until you have some factual basis to back that up other than your very biased eye test interpretation folks like me are going to call it for what it is...unsubstantiated baloney.

 

[Chris]

I have no idea as to the reason why, but...watching his play this season, including the preseason, I have been surprised on numerous occasions by his inability to beat defensive linemen to the outside or to the sideline when necessary. It has seemed like a lack of physical burst to me. Perhaps it's lack of mental burst instead. Either way he does not seem as explosive to me so far this season as he was prior to the knee injury.

Then again, maybe I'm just nuts.

 

[TomE]

My grandmother's house was huge when I was little, now that I've grown it's much smaller.

Perspective.... Griffs speed coming in was something few of us had witnessed at the position, two years later no matter what transpired, the eyeballs would see 'slower'. Knowing the injury situation will enhance that perspective as well. Defenders are also reacting better to him, the book says he doesn't have much 'wiggle' so they can be more aggressive in pursuit.

I tend to go with the still learning/thinking line of 'excuse', Griff, by all accounts (read and heard), was up to speed physically including the 'burst', he was just hesitant in letting it rip 'cause he's unsure of when to do it.

 

[Om]

Ultimately it's not about whether Robert's running 4.35 in practice or 4.45. It's about whether he has the mobility and speed to be a true dual threat quarterback at an elite level.

Prior to JAX, he was easily fast enough to escape a collapsing pocket and gash a defense with his legs. He was easily fast enough to force defenses to respect him as a running threat on the read-option. I'm not sure anyone would seriously argue he was not?

Which leaves us with what he WAS not. What he was not, yet, was able to drop, read and deliver as fast as Kirk ... or as fast as he will need to in order to become an elite NFL QB for the next X years. We've seen enough from Kirk the last 2 weeks to see that very clearly. The difference in simple reaction/delivery time has been obvious. (What we haven't yet seen from Kirk, or course, is a good discussion, but not for this thread).

The OP asked if the picks were "wasted." My view is, no. They were an investment--a calculated one that made sense given the totality of circumstances. And one we won't realistically be able to assess the return on for a few more years.

He may turn out to have been a shooting star, with 2012 the one blaze of glory. He may turn out to be the first of a new breed of super-athletic QB's to chisel his dreds on the NFL's Mt. Rushmore. He will likely settle something in between.

Those of us who have not already make up our minds on his story, based only on interpretations of evidence over less than two seasons of games, are prepared to wait and watch.

 

[Elephant]

Om, some of us are basing our assertions on more than just 2 seasons...we are going back to his college days which offered a glimpse into what he would become in the pros. So far...that has come to fruition...an oft injured QB.

Other than that, I will agree with most of the above post.

 

[Gulf Coast Redskin]

I tend to go with the still learning/thinking line of 'excuse', Griff, by all accounts (read and heard), was up to speed physically including the 'burst', he was just hesitant in letting it rip 'cause he's unsure of when to do it.

This is pretty much what I've been leaning towards. I believe we saw his burst in pre-season against the Browns & he showed that speed was back. but immediately, he was criticized for allowing himself to get hit before getting out of bounds & the repetitive criticism of him running rather than making reads & throwing were louder than ever. I'm not saying that there was a response as I have nothing to base that on other than what we've seen since. It was after that game that he suddenly seemed slower. The very next game in Baltimore where he seemingly made an effort NOT to run down the field, but rather ran out of bounds, choosing to lose yardage instead.

He's a young, impressionable kid who really wants to succeed, but also really wants to please the crowd & right now, he's lost on how to do both. The crowd wants him to succeed as well, but we've been lost almost as long as Griffin has been alive. There is no pleasing this crowd. Except to win. By any means necessary. Unfortunately, everyone is an expert & everyone knows more than everyone else, including the coaches & if he spends ANY amount of time reading/listening to the fans/journalist/pundits, he's going to hear criticism. And I think it's gotten into his head.

I don't see what people are seeing where him slowing down is concerned. When it is a called run play, he is decisively fast & you can clearly see the burst there. I thought everyone could see it against Jax on the very first play from scrimmage bursting out of the pocket for a 12 yard gain. He looked pretty fast to me. It's when he has to make a quick decision to throw the ball or run with it that he hesitates & it affects his speed & his decision making.

 

[micks113]

My grandmother's house was huge when I was little, now that I've grown it's much smaller.

Perspective.... Griffs speed coming in was something few of us had witnessed at the position, two years later no matter what transpired, the eyeballs would see 'slower'. Knowing the injury situation will enhance that perspective as well. Defenders are also reacting better to him, the book says he doesn't have much 'wiggle' so they can be more aggressive in pursuit.

I tend to go with the still learning/thinking line of 'excuse', Griff, by all accounts (read and heard), was up to speed physically including the 'burst', he was just hesitant in letting it rip 'cause he's unsure of when to do it.

There's a simple explanation to why Griffin looks slower on the field. We aren't running the pistol any more. He is being groomed to play from the pocket. If Griffin had started his first year as a dedicated pocket passer, you would see the same speed as 2014. Now you should also know that his success from the pocket in 2012 was entirely due to his running threat. Don't compare the two styles of play (not you per se tom but for others) and try to equate speed on the field. That's ridiculous.

 

[Win4us]

I'm kinda torn on this, tho leaning toward keeping Kirk in the long run. I mean if this run he's on keeps remotely close to this production then ya gotta let it ride.

Sure Kirk had some bad games last season but he seems to have learned from his mistakes and improving. About all we could realistically ask for IMHO.

To answer the question on the 1's I say hell no wasn't worth it. Anytime we trade picks away we seem to be on the worse end. Okay with trading down but eff that trading picks to move up.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

The reason it was a dumb move was simple, we were talent deficient, had several gaping holes and were far from being one player away. we needed to build up our oline, fill holes on defence and then once that was done, roll the dice on a franchise player, instead we went after one when we didnt have a good oline to protect him and no defence t get him the ball. we just did everything backwards.

 

[Dead Money]

There's a simple explanation to why Griffin looks slower on the field. We aren't running the pistol any more. He is being groomed to play from the pocket. If Griffin had started his first year as a dedicated pocket passer, you would see the same speed as 2014. Now you should also know that his success from the pocket in 2012 was entirely due to his running threat. Don't compare the two styles of play (not you per se tom but for others) and try to equate speed on the field. That's ridiculous.

In his third year.. Now being groomed to play from the pocket. I'm not blaming Robert for this not being done in 2012 but hey it is what it is... He's years behind at this point. Not exactly what you spend all those draft picks on typically.

I don't see anybody saying this offense matches Kirk skillset and that the 2012 & 13's offense didn't. Why did he play poorly last year and is lighting it up now? Different Offense?

Also, since excuses seem to be the way to go... How about those blaming a guy for fizzling out in the 4th quarter after he rode the pine for most of 3 yrs and was asked to throw the ball almost 50 times? Our defense was resting but our offense was on the field a lot in the first half? Why does that not count in his favor? [emoji2]

 

[Ax]

Well, since 1st rounders are a 50/50 shot, and 2nds have to be less, we're talking about two players.

One is Robert, who I firmly believe is a hit. Meaning, we might have given up one starter quality player for the right to draft Griffin. Big whoop.

Part of the delusion of the "we gave up the farm" crowd, is the automatic assumption that every pick was gonna be a pro bowl starter. Nobody does that. Not the cheatriots. Not the fecals. Two teams always bandied about as draft geniuses.

Rolling the dice on the kind of talent Robert has was a no brainer. Even to someone like me, who KNOWS that great players come from every round, every year. Along with UDFA's.

And even though I believe in Robert, his story isn't complete yet. Nobody knows what it will be. It seems there are as many hoping for his failure, regardless of mouthing the opposite, as there are those of us hoping for his success.

 

[Om]

Another factor in trying to weigh whether Bob was "worth" the price, particularly in regards to the "we were not just one player away" argument, is that a Franchise QB is not "just one player." A Franchise QB changes everything. You have one, you contend for a decade or more. You don't, and you're just another team trying to catch lightning in a bottle for any given season.

 

[Goaldeje]

What he said. I'll add that the price of hope for a fanbase is difficult to quantify. Had we had to endure another three seasons (or two, or even half a season) of Sexy at QB while we built the "right way", I'm not sure I personally could have stomached it, and I consider myself to be relatively patient. I'm not sure the fanbase wouldn't have stormed the proverbial castle in frustration. Snyder bought hope, and man, oh man, did it pay off early. People are frustrated now perhaps, but no where near the level we all were watching Sexy throw up the most God-awful INTs any of us have ever seen.

So objectively, absent any emotion, you could make a very clear argument that empirical data tells us definitively that the trade was a bad one that we shouldn't have made. But very few of us can "Spock" our way through life devoid of hope. Snyder took a huge gamble, it paid off early, it's not paying off now, but I don't think the whole book has been written yet.

 

[Dead Money]

I don't think anyone here thinks we would have hit on all those draft picks...especially with our draft history. Although I do believe that the level of overall talent on the roster would be better.

I would hope you aren't referring to many of us here about hoping Robert would fail, that would just be unfair. There might be one in the crowd but isn't there always?

Thanks to the media hype, ridiculous coverage and of course his prominence on social media there is no shortage of RG3 hate. I didn't really get it until the whole Johnny Manziel thing this year... I hate Johnny Manziel, I have no reason to except for the fact that the media forced him on us to such a degree that just hearing his name makes me roll my eyes and sigh.... I think a lot of our rivals and even just average NFL fans are sick of hearing about him, especially since he hasn't been a factor for a while now.

In no way do I wish ill will on the young man, and being a fan, of course there is a part of me that hopes he can pull it together, the pessimistic side of me says that's just not a good bet.

Well, since 1st rounders are a 50/50 shot, and 2nds have to be less, we're talking about two players.

One is Robert, who I firmly believe is a hit. Meaning, we might have given up one starter quality player for the right to draft Griffin. Big whoop.

Part of the delusion of the "we gave up the farm" crowd, is the automatic assumption that every pick was gonna be a pro bowl starter. Nobody does that. Not the cheatriots. Not the fecals. Two teams always bandied about as draft geniuses.

Rolling the dice on the kind of talent Robert has was a no brainer. Even to someone like me, who KNOWS that great players come from every round, every year. Along with UDFA's.

And even though I believe in Robert, his story isn't complete yet. Nobody knows what it will be. It seems there are as many hoping for his failure, regardless of mouthing the opposite, as there are those of us hoping for his success.