Receiving corps numbers

other than the failure to do anything of positive value in the first 2 years at the quarterback position, Shanahan's biggest failure here in my mind has been the investmen of resources in the wide receiver position - which continues to be a unit that you can't count on.

Garcon is hurt. Hankerson is looking like a bust. Aldrick Robinson has failed to improve and make a case for himself going forward. Now we can see why Briscoe was let go by the Bucs and Schiano, he's got good size and speed but has hands of stone. Moss is simply over the hill. He is slimmed down but at 33 still a depth player.

Josh Morgan is this year's free agent bust. $7.5M cap hit for a guy that looks like he is going to end up with 30 catches?

What a joke.
 
BT, no offense, but you keep saying guys look like a bust by setting impossible standards. Historically, WRs usually "break-out" in year 3; we are seeing flashes of all the things that could lead to a break-out from Hankerson - big catches, gets open, etc. - what do you see that leads you to believe he WON'T break-out next season?

Same goes for Jenkins - you keep saying you see him as a bust, in his first year of playing on a reconstructed knee...he's not the dominant player we once thought we were getting, but as he gains confidence in his knee, he'll get it back. I think its ironic you post about snap-judgments in one thread, when you're making some about players in others. :)
 
No, I don't expect rookies and second year players to be consistently excellent. Yes, they are still learning.

But I have not seen the 'flash' plays from some of the younger players that indicates they are on the road to making a greater contribution down the road.

Hankerson is simply not catching the ball. And rather than improving, he seems to be regressing. He did well the first couple of games during the season, catching a TD from Griffin against the Rams on a downfield pass.

But with more time on the field, he has actually produced LESS flash plays.

Now he is consistently dropping the ball, which if you will recall was a knock on him coming out of Miami.

With Jenkins, from what Keim and other closer observers have noted, Jarvis has held up in the run game for the most part but moving him around to DT and then to DE based on matchup has failed to result in him getting any real pressure on the passer.

Stephen Bowen has been the only consistent DL getting any qb pressure this season.

None of the younger players on this team are 'perfect'.

But I see flash plays from Griffin, Morris, Trent Williams, Perry Riley, Darrel Young, Logan Paulsen, Chris Baker and even Kai Forbath that shows they have what it takes to stick.

I am still looking for that from the players I have noted in previous posts here.

And that includes the 26 year old Morgan who is a FOURTH year player in the NFL and who is already on a $12M contract.

He is not a rookie. The expectation for a guy receiving that kind of deal is he is going to be productive from the get-go. Perhaps not star level, but a consistent, solid wide receiver who makes the routine catches and is a guy Griffin can count on in critical situations to make the catch.

So far, we aren't getting full value out of Morgan. Not by a long shot.
 
Agree on that Griffin guy, he's flashed a little. ;)

I didn't like the Morgan signing when we made it, but I think you should remember that even though his contract sounds big, its nothing compared to the contracts of guys like Fitzgerald, Megatron, etc (Credit to Henry for that original point, I believe). Morgan is being paid like a #2, #3 WR, but has to step up and be a #1 with Hankerson not quite there and the injury to Garçon.

Bulldog's Twin said:
With Jenkins, from what Keim and other closer observers have noted, Jarvis has held up in the run game for the most part but moving him around to DT and then to DE based on matchup has failed to result in him getting any real pressure on the passer.
Click to expand...

Again - he's playing on a reconstructed knee, and holding up in the run game well. Will he get the burst and explosiveness back? Only time will tell, but it will take time. I don't think its fair to label him a bust just yet.
 
BT, are you looking for a deep pass each game to Hank? I'm confused. I have been frustrated with him for sure, especially with the drops, but do feel he has "flashed" some here and there, enough certainly to keep him intriguing. I know we're all frustrated after Sunday's game because of the drops in particular; with that kind of game, I think you just chalk it up to not being our day and move on. When you drop that many passes in one game, the team wasn't focused or whatever, fine. If you're the coaches, don't let it happen again, but don't dwell on it, and certainly don't make any sweeping proclamations that Morgan and Hank are worthless because they dropped some passes.
 
There is no excuse for the performance we just saw from our WRs. It's almost like they had never practiced catching the ball in rain before.
 
I read a comment from a Pittsburgh journalist that there was actually only 3 legit drops - Pittsburgh defenders had a hand in the rest of the passes that were dropped. Not saying they shouldn't have been caught, but if a defender gets their hand on the ball at all, its usually not considered a "drop." Will try to find the comment.
 
Morgan for the money being paid is an underachiever. Of course what I question is why the Redskins with limited dollars to spend would tie up $7.5m in the 2012 cap on a guy that missed 13 games in 2011 and who the 49ers refused to tender.

Morgan looked to me in the offseason like a career backup that would have to sign an incentive deal to prove that he could both stay healthy and step up and be productive consistently.

Because he had not shown that before :)

Hankerson is not a definite bust. But he is showing concerning signs of being a chronic Rod Gardner, catching one ball and then dropping the next.

We all know what happened to ole 50/50.

I hope he improves. No, I don't expect a 68 yard TD each week.

But a TD in the end zone hitting him on stride?

Yes, I expect him as a second year player to make that play 8 or 9 times out of 10.

Sorry, folks I don't bell curve :laugh:

9 or 10 of 10 is an A.

Anything less than an 8 out of 10 means you need to improve.
 
From Mark Kaboly of the Pitt Tribune Review:

After further review, Redskins didn't have many drops at all
Drops are not an official stat, so there was much speculation of how many Washington had Sunday.

Mike Shanahan threw out the number 10, so that's what we all went with. Read more at the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review ›

However, after a closer look at the film, they really only had three legitimate drops. The only ones I could confirm were: Hankerson in end zone; Moss near end of 2nd; and Young in the 4th.

The Steelers defense had a hand in 5 and 2 bad RGIII throws accountedf or the others
Click to expand...

http://sulia.com/source/S-11033651/
 
Hankerson in the end zone is the one that has concerned me all along. It shows he is not focusing at the most critical times and failing to become the kind of player Griffin can count on.

I don't care as much what Moss does overall because at 33 he is likely gone after this season.

But we spent picks on a number of receivers in recent years from Thomas in 2008 to Terrence Austin to Leonard Hankerson to Aldrick Robinson and right now it doesn't look like the club is finding any answers.

And the opportunity cost of taking guys like Hankerson and Robinson is that those were two picks that could have been spent elsewhere.

Perhaps you can look at Robinson and say as a #6 pick any player would be a long-shot.

But Hankerson was drafted high enough at #3 that the Redskins should be able to find a player that can become a solid starter over time.
 
Bulldog's Twin said:
Hankerson in the end zone is the one that has concerned me all along. It shows he is not focusing at the most critical times and failing to become the kind of player Griffin can count on.

I don't care as much what Moss does overall because at 33 he is likely gone after this season.

But we spent picks on a number of receivers in recent years from Thomas in 2008 to Terrence Austin to Leonard Hankerson to Aldrick Robinson and right now it doesn't look like the club is finding any answers.
Click to expand...

I find myself agreeing with almost everything you write BT. I do wonder though, if some of these guys in fact do have more talent than we are seeing, and if this isn't somewhat of a coaching failure. I do believe that a guy like Terrence Austin can play. Same with Hank. Maybe even Robinson.

I can't quite put my finger on it.
 
Lanky Livingston said:
I read a comment from a Pittsburgh journalist that there was actually only 3 legit drops - Pittsburgh defenders had a hand in the rest of the passes that were dropped. Not saying they shouldn't have been caught, but if a defender gets their hand on the ball at all, its usually not considered a "drop." Will try to find the comment.
Click to expand...

Eh. We all watched the game. The Pittsburgh fans want their team to get all the credit, which is fine for them. But our WRs dropped a TON on Sunday. There's no way to get around that.
 
Isn't the lack of separation on a muddy field where the receiver should have the advantage a symptom of poor route running?

Where there is rain and snow you see receivers catch the ball and turn and twist and make DBs fall down and often pick up significant RAC yardage.
 
Bulldog's Twin said:
Hankerson in the end zone is the one that has concerned me all along. It shows he is not focusing at the most critical times and failing to become the kind of player Griffin can count on.

I don't care as much what Moss does overall because at 33 he is likely gone after this season.

But we spent picks on a number of receivers in recent years from Thomas in 2008 to Terrence Austin to Leonard Hankerson to Aldrick Robinson and right now it doesn't look like the club is finding any answers.

And the opportunity cost of taking guys like Hankerson and Robinson is that those were two picks that could have been spent elsewhere.

Perhaps you can look at Robinson and say as a #6 pick any player would be a long-shot.

But Hankerson was drafted high enough at #3 that the Redskins should be able to find a player that can become a solid starter over time.
Click to expand...


Again I would point out that year-3 is typically when WRs bring it all together. Yes, its concerning that Hankerson lost focus and dropped a sure TD, and its concerning he almost dropped the 68-yarder earlier in the year. However, the bright side of these things is that he's getting open, which means he understands the offense, and is getting separation either due to quicks or good route-running. These things are the ingredients for a breakout, not necessarily the catches.

And a 3rd-round WR is someone I would expect to take the full 3-years to reach his NFL potential, not the other way around. Robinson as a 6th-rounder is playing well for his position as a longshot in the first place.
 
How do you define "over time"? To me, 8 games into his second season isn't enough time. I was (and still am) disappointed that he didn't lay out for the pass that should have been a TD, but I also am not ready to label him a bust. As Lanky points out, MOST WRs take a couple of years to blossom. If he shows the same mistakes and lack of production next year, then yeah, we have a problem.

Here are some examples:

Stevie Johnson went from 10 catches for 102 yards his rookie season to 82 for 1073 his third year: http://www.nfl.com/player/stevejohnson/768/profile

Miles Austin went from 5 catches for 76 yards in his first full year as a WR (spent a year as ST player, no catches on offense) to 81 for 1320 in his third year of being a WR: http://www.nfl.com/player/milesaustin/2495801/profile#

Steve Smith went from 10 catches for 154 yards as a rookie to 88 catches for 1110 yards in his third year: http://www.nfl.com/player/stevesmith/2504595/profile


EDIT TO ADD:

For reference, in 8 games, Hank had 13 catches for 163 last year. If we double that projecting a full 16 games, he would have 16 catches for 326, better than any of the examples I provided.
 
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Well, over time both free agent dollars and picks have been spent on WR at the expense of OL and CB.

At some point we need to see returns. We can blame injuries, youth, inexperience, bad luck, the skill of opponents, etc.

Remember that the lasting memory of the Rams' loss was not a play made by Bradford or Stephen Jackson but rather a stupid, game-changing play made by Josh Morgan to set the offense back and ultimately out of reasonable field goal range in a winnable game.
 
Bulldog's Twin said:
Morgan for the money being paid is an underachiever. Of course what I question is why the Redskins with limited dollars to spend would tie up $7.5m in the 2012 cap on a guy that missed 13 games in 2011 and who the 49ers refused to tender.

Morgan looked to me in the offseason like a career backup that would have to sign an incentive deal to prove that he could both stay healthy and step up and be productive consistently.
Click to expand...

I really don't like defending Morgan but you seem downright obsessed with the guy.

Where did you get that cap hit number? I've got his cap hit at $4.75 mil this year.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/washington-redskins/josh-morgan/

And how did you conclude he's on pace for 30 catches this year? He's on pace for 46 catches and 520 yards. Looking at his career numbers that's about what he should be expected to get. In his two years as a full time starter he averaged 46 catches for 612 yards. Why would anyone be shocked that's what he's doing now?

He's being paid like a #2 WR and he's producing like a mediocre #2 WR. Did we overpay for the guy? Yeah a little, but it's not some crushingly huge mistake. He's not a terrible bust. He's just a not-great player who's slightly overpaid. It's a shame he's not better but the Morgan signing isn't killing this team. I'd say he's the least of our problems at WR at this point.
 
Let's be straight. He is only a #2 wide receiver because Garcon is hurt. The guy was behind Hankerson in camp and the preseason and started the year on the bench.

Also, San Francisco in the offseason decided to re-make their wide receiver corps from the ground up bringing in Manningham and Moss.

For a guy that missed 13 games and didn't figure in his teams plans, we certainly paid a lot.

If you are correct about the $4.75M and I am sorry if I picked up an incorrect figure from a website or other blog post, don't you think that is still a LOT of money for a team that right now has severe cap limitations?

Again, I am not opposed to bringing in guys and giving them a chance on reasonable deals but for a guy that was injured and missed almost the entire season in 2011, I think signing him on Day 1 of free agency and giving him guaranteed money is a mistake.

You can make the argument that his unsportsmanlike conduct penalty helped cost us the game in St. Louis.

That play is clearer in my mind than any positive plays he has made to date.

Perhaps we have been watching different games.

Josh Morgan would not be a #2 wide receiver on any of the other NFC East teams.

In fact he might not even be a #3.

Funny how the Giants are consistently able to find wide receivers to replace guys that leave in free agency or get injured (Manningham, Nicks) and the Redskins cannot find ONE younger guy that can come in and be a difference maker.
 
Well BD, the other way to look at it is that if we hadn't signed Morgan we'd be REALLY screwed at WR once Garcon was out. Morgan is at least producing SOMETHING, which is more than we can say about some of the other WRs on this roster.

And while that penalty against the Rams was brutal, Morgan has also contributed on some very important game-winning plays, such as his downfield blocking on Morris' big run against the Bucs and Griffin's big run against the Vikings. You can't look at one play and define a player by it.

Again I agree we overpaid for the guy but I wouldn't call him a huge bust. He's the 28th highest paid WR in the league and he's playing like the 40th or something. Greater tragedies have happened.

And yes, it sure would be nice if we could find WRs like the Giants do. Most teams can't. just like most teams can't find pro-bowl quality RBs in the 6th round like we did. I'm sure the Giants would rather not be paying their mediocre RB $4.5 million this year while we get superior production from a guy making less than a tenth of that, but again, greater tragedies have happened. :)
 
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