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Elephant

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But the reality is we keep underachieving, so we will continue to be lumped into those 5 worst teams over the course of the past 20 years. That fact does not get a pass because there appears to some upward turn in the direction of the team over the course of the past 4 years.

Th reality is, one division title in a poor division 3 years ago, then regression over the course of the next 2 seasons, does nothing to excuse the fact that we are linked to the worst 5 or 6 teams in the league over 20 years because our record shows as much.

You like the idea of giving a poor head coach stability because of the former revolving door at the position. OK, so we've had 2 coaches in the past 10 seasons...with Bruce Allen in charge of football operations. Let's contrast that with the previous 10 years under Vinnie Cerrato and the revolving door. Well, Vinnie Cerrato had just as much success as Bruce Allen, in fact a better winning percentage.

I love your optimism, I have had my mind changed over the course of the last 10 years 3 or 4 times when I just didn't want to fall into the same hyped off-season "wins" we apparently had. I simply refuse to do it anymore.

This organization is not a good one. It starts with Dan Snyder and his inability to actually build something, not buy someone else's success and twist it enough to make gains.

Then there is Bruce Allen...whose record, as the GM/VP/whatever you want to call him, is worse than Vinnie friggin Cerrato!

Then there is Jay Gruden who is consistently out coached because he has a limited overall view of football, an exclusively offensive minded coordinator, not a head coach. If his plan doesn't work, then what does he do? He has no ability to adjust and does little to drive the team...he's no leader.

So now we have a new hope...a franchise 1st round QB. And I'm supposed to get excited for this?

We may win 9 this year, provided we don't depend too much on the oft injured players we seem to hold onto longer than any other team would. More than likely we win 7, maybe 8 and next year about this time we're talking about the newest "great" off-season of player who won't be here in 3 years, giving this poor head coach more stability, holding on to a GM/VP who has a dismal record over 10 years.

Why do I hold on? Obsession.
 

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Well, dang. Threaten me with logic...
I think it's more accurate to describe the owner and FO as a dumpster fire is what I meant. But I know a lot of folks feel like you do. Understandable since we haven't been a relevant or competitive playoff team in a long time. I just think we exaggerate the ineptitude at times. Folks believe ‘it can't get worse', but I know for certain it could've been and can be far worse.


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Boone

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But the reality is we keep underachieving, so we will continue to be lumped into those 5 worst teams over the course of the past 20 years. That fact does not get a pass because there appears to some to be an upward turn in the direction of the team over the course of the past 4 years.

Th reality is, one division title in a poor division 3 years ago, then regression over the course of the next 2 seasons, does nothing to excuse the fact that we are linked to the worst 5 or 6 teams in the league over 20 years because our record shows as much.

You like the idea of giving a poor head coach stability because of the former revolving door at the position. OK, so we've had 2 coaches in the past 10 seasons...with Bruce Allen in charge of football operations. Let's contrast that with the previous 10 years under Vinnie Cerrato and the revolving door. Well, Vinnie Cerrato had just as much success as Bruce Allen, in fact a better winning percentage.

I love your optimism, I have had my mind changed over the course of the last 10 years 3 or 4 times when I just didn't want to fall into the same hyped off-season "wins" we apparently had. I simply refuse to do it anymore.

This organization is not a good one. It starts with Dan Snyder and his inability to actually build something, not buy someone else's success and twist it enough to make gains.

Then there is Bruce Allen...whose record, as the GM/VP/whatever you want to call him, is worse than Vinnie friggin Cerrato!

Then there is Jay Gruden who is consistently out coached because he has a limited overall view of football, an exclusively offensive minded coordinator, not a head coach. If his plan doesn't work, then what does he do? He has no ability to adjust and does little to drive the team...he's no leader.

So now we have a new hope...a franchise 1st round QB. And I'm supposed to get excited for this?

We may win 9 this year, provided we don't depend too much on the oft injured players we seem to hold onto longer than any other team would. More than likely we win 7, maybe 8 and next year about this time we're talking about the newest "great" off-season of player who won't be here in 3 years, giving this poor head coach more stability, holding on to a GM/VP who has a dismal record over 10 years.

Why do I hold on? Obsession.
You're twisting my words brother. I don't 'like the idea of giving a poor head coach stability'. I don't believe he's a poor head coach - or at worst, while we've not had sustained success during his tenure, he's had some unprecedented challenges. He had to contend with a terrible situation with RG3, and the injuries the past two seasons (no matter how loudly you want to dismiss them) would've crippled any HC - even a Joe Gibbs. I get there are other criticisms, but he's not incompetent and blowing it up and starting over this year wouldn't have contributed to anything other than more turmoil and upheaval. If he can't turn the corner in the next 1-2 seasons, it will be reasonable to move on.

You're wrong on Allen - no one was worse than Vinny Cerrato (you know 'records' don't tell the full tale) and that doesn't really deserve a serious response. We may hate the gladhanding, manipulative guy Allen is, but he has been in the driver's seat in what I think is improved operations the past 3 years, and has lead what looks to me like a more responsible approach to building a football team than we've had in a while.

Because you are tired, worn out, unable to envision that things may be getting better doesn't equate to things being hopeless - that's just where YOU are. That's not a criticism - I've been there, just as beleagured as you and others at times and probably will be again. And of course, as I continue to say - none of it means anything until we consistently show we can win and dominate our division, become a perennial playoff team, and win big again.

Everyone - even little pea-brained me - gets that. But it doesn't mean we can't praise positive movement as we believe it is occurring. That's mostly all I'm saying.
 

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I think it's more accurate to describe the owner and FO as a dumpster fire is what I meant. But I know a lot of folks feel like you do. Understandable since we haven't been a relevant or competitive playoff team in a long time. I just think we exaggerate the ineptitude at times. Folks believe ‘it can't get worse', but I know for certain it could've been and can be far worse.


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No, I get that brother. Truth be told, I believe the Dan IS learning - albeit at a much slower pace than we all would've liked. One only has to recall George Steinbrenner to feel hopeful about the future of this franchise. And I am hugely optimistic about this season with Dwayne throwing the rock. This time of year I always feel like Morgan Freeman at the end of Shawshank. I hope. I hope...
 

Elephant

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You're twisting my words brother.
No, you want stability and are willing to give a coach who has proven he is not a good coach, a pass because he was dealt a bad hand. He's done nothing to make it much better.

You're wrong on Allen - no one was worse than Vinny Cerrato (you know 'records' don't tell the full tale) and that doesn't really deserve a serious response. We may hate the gladhanding, manipulative guy Allen is, but he has been in the driver's seat in what I think is improved operations the past 3 years, and has lead what looks to me like a more responsible approach to building a football team than we've had in a while.
You have nothing to support his assertion. Yeah, I was wrong about Scot because I was unaware he was still drinking, but Allen's drafts have not produced anything to suggest he has made better decisions. How many Bruce picks are still on the squad from 2 years ago? We'll see how many from last year are...and next year we'll see from this class.

Every year it's the same thing in the off-season...we had a great draft, then the reality of our situation settles in and we look pretty much the same or slightly worse

Because you are tired, worn out, unable to envision that things may be getting better doesn't equate to things being hopeless - that's just where YOU are. That's not a criticism - I've been there, just as beleagured as you and others at times and probably will be again. And of course, as I continue to say - none of it means anything until we consistently show we can win and dominate our division, become a perennial playoff team, and win big again.
Being tired and worn out does not keep me from seeing the poor product the team continues to trot out. We won a weak division with a 9-7 record and we're supposed to believe that's promising? The following 2 season have seen regression. It goes far beyond injuries, too. It is because our coaching is not good. Gruden can game plan well, but is not a leader. You suggest Allen is doing an inspired job over the past 3 years, and none of that has even remotely transferred to the product on the field...we lost more game last year than the year before, we lost more games that year than the year before we won a poor division with a 9 wins regular season...not something I am going to applaud. It is nothing more than regression from mediocrity.

I really don't see how you can suggest Allen's actions deserve credit. We're not a good team and for 10 years he's been leading this team.
 

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I know you guys think I'm an absolute homer - but a lot of what I post here is from the perspective of running a Redskins Fan Community and trying to hold up some kind of torch of hopefulness and potential positivity in order to keep the damn thing burning. In truth, much more so than you would guess, I'm a card carrying member of @Henry 's 'Prove it' club.

But we are not a dumpster fire of a team and we really haven't been since the Shanahan/Gruden eras.

We've generally been near, at, or above .500 during those years. We have not gone through a carousel of coaches, firing guys every 2 seasons because we didn't immediately win. We've kept the Front Office and coaching staffs mostly together. In fact, by far the biggest changes that have occurred are because our guys keep getting promoted or poached from us. We have not only kept our draft picks, but we have started making some really good picks.

There is reason to be hopeful. Had it not been for Griffin not panning out, and a couple of seasons of epic injuries, we might already have seen the tide shifting in a more positive direction. Those other teams you are wanting to compare us to haven't won their division twice during the most recent coaching stretches. Some of them couldn't recall when they last did it. It's not enough, but we have not been close to the worst team in the league in a long while. There are good signs to be seen if you are willing to look at them and set aside 20 years of snark, anger, and cynicism.

Then again, maybe I'm just saying all of that :)
Well dang. If you speak my name I will emerge, so ... :)

I'm not sure I entirely agree with the non-dumpster-fire assertion. Not just yet.

It is true that we haven't been turning over coaches like we used to. And we haven't been signing free agents like it's 1999. And we don't get rid of draft picks like they are on fire anymore. That's all good stuff. And hey, we win seven or eight games a year now. So the improvements in these areas are bearing some ... modest results.

However ... dude. We have GOT to stop screwing around with our quarterbacks. Oh my gosh I've never seen any position botched as badly as the Redskins have done over the past ten years. It's not just not picking the right guys. It's not just bad luck with injuries. It's a whole way of life with this team. Trade away youth for McNabb. Ditch McNabb. Start Grossman (!). Unprecedented trade for Griffin. Ditch Griffin. Start Cousins. Foodle about until Cousins just ... leaves. Trade away youth for Smith. Watch Smith break in two.

SO so bad. By my count we've spent three#1s, two #2s, a #3, two #4s, and Kendall Fuller for QBs no longer on the roster (Ok, Smith is still technically on the roster but c'mon.) That's like two full drafts worth of players. And that's just over the past ten years.

I should be thrilled with this past draft. We didn't have to trade up and we got the guy we wanted. Problem is, I have no confidence that he's going to pan out, and if he pans out I have no confidence that we won't find some way to screw it up and run him out of town. It's what we do.

Because our front office is a bit of a dumpster fire. Sorry.

I will now slink back into the mist until next time. :)
 

Henry

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... and say what you want about the Jets, but since our last Superbowl win they've had six 10 or more-win seasons, including an 11- and a 12-win season, and they've been to three conference championship games. One of which was less than ten years ago. Oh, and ten playoff wins. Not bad for a team that's had the New England Tom Brady's in their division for the past 20 years.

The Redskins during that time? three 10-win seasons, none 11 or more. No conference championships. Two playoff wins.
 

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No, you want stability and are willing to give a coach who has proven he is not a good coach, a pass because he was dealt a bad hand. He's done nothing to make it much better.

You have nothing to support his assertion. Yeah, I was wrong about Scot because I was unaware he was still drinking, but Allen's drafts have not produced anything to suggest he has made better decisions. How many Bruce picks are still on the squad from 2 years ago? We'll see how many from last year are...and next year we'll see from this class.

Every year it's the same thing in the off-season...we had a great draft, then the reality of our situation settles in and we look pretty much the same or slightly worse

Being tired and worn out does not keep me from seeing the poor product the team continues to trot out. We won a weak division with a 9-7 record and we're supposed to believe that's promising? The following 2 season have seen regression. It goes far beyond injuries, too. It is because our coaching is not good. Gruden can game plan well, but is not a leader. You suggest Allen is doing an inspired job over the past 3 years, and none of that has even remotely transferred to the product on the field...we lost more game last year than the year before, we lost more games that year than the year before we won a poor division with a 9 wins regular season...not something I am going to applaud. It is nothing more than regression from mediocrity.

I really don't see how you can suggest Allen's actions deserve credit. We're not a good team and for 10 years he's been leading this team.
I already conceded that if he can't do better he should go - I just feel there's more benefit to giving more time (not just to Gruden, but in general) because the constant regime change in untenable. You've decided Gruden is a terrible coach which is your prerogative. But it's not insane to give him a year or two more and see what he can do when he doesn't have to start his 2nd or 3rd QB behind makeshift lines. I agree that we can't judge draft classes until years have passed. I'm not just talking about individual draft picks - even Redskins saints like Casserly and Bobby Beathard blew picks. I'm talking about being patient, not breaking the bank on over the hill gigantic contract free agents, holding onto our picks, trading down for more picks, and getting value picks (like 2 straight drafts where we got a 1st round talent we had no business getting). I've said over and over that until we start consistently winning, those are just theoretical improvements. If you want to keep pretending I haven't acknowledged that over and over, I guess that's also fine. Cerrato was literally a joke Brian. I'm not going to waste my time rehashing some of the decisions he made or the extent to which he was Snyder's racquetball partner and piss boy... you know exactly what I'm talking about. I don't like Bruce Allen and I wish we had some other competent GM, but there are more than a few pricks high up in NFL organizations who are successful pricks. Most of the decisions I've seen him make in the last 3 or 4 seasons have looked like learning and improvement to me. You don't have to agree. The last 2 seasons we were in the thick of it for the NFC East against good Philly and Dallas teams - until injuries piled up. I'm not fabricating that - it's a fact. I don't know what to tell you.

And I never came close to saying Allen has ever done an 'inspired job' - more twisting of words.

I guess one question I have for you (and Al for that matter) is why does it piss you off so badly that I may harbor a little hope for coming seasons? It has no impact on you. You guys are free to believe we are going to be horrific. And I'll keep doing me.
 

Boone

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Well dang. If you speak my name I will emerge, so ... :)

I'm not sure I entirely agree with the non-dumpster-fire assertion. Not just yet.

It is true that we haven't been turning over coaches like we used to. And we haven't been signing free agents like it's 1999. And we don't get rid of draft picks like they are on fire anymore. That's all good stuff. And hey, we win seven or eight games a year now. So the improvements in these areas are bearing some ... modest results.

However ... dude. We have GOT to stop screwing around with our quarterbacks. Oh my gosh I've never seen any position botched as badly as the Redskins have done over the past ten years. It's not just not picking the right guys. It's not just bad luck with injuries. It's a whole way of life with this team. Trade away youth for McNabb. Ditch McNabb. Start Grossman (!). Unprecedented trade for Griffin. Ditch Griffin. Start Cousins. Foodle about until Cousins just ... leaves. Trade away youth for Smith. Watch Smith break in two.

SO so bad. By my count we've spent three#1s, two #2s , a #3 , two #4s , and Kendall Fuller for QBs no longer on the roster (Ok, Smith is still technically on the roster but c'mon.) That's like two full drafts worth of players. And that's just over the past ten years.

I should be thrilled with this past draft. We didn't have to trade up and we got the guy we wanted. Problem is, I have no confidence that he's going to pan out, and if he pans out I have no confidence that we won't find some way to screw it up and run him out of town. It's what we do.

Because our front office is a bit of a dumpster fire. Sorry.

I will now slink back into the mist until next time. :)
Dumpster fires are relative. I'm not saying they haven't felt like a dumpster fire. But we haven't been close to the worst team or franchise in the league imho. We've also had some extraordinarily bad luck in recent years. I don't care who you are, you can't deny that having your starting and backup QBs BOTH break their legs in a quarter season, with the division still in reach, isn't terrible luck.

On the QBs - I couldn't agree more. I like Haskins more than any QB we've drafted in the past 20 years. Quite possible he'll prove to be a mirage, a diva, suffer a career-threatening injury, or as you described we'll find some other way to eff it up. But I still believe that we have a pretty solid roster, what could be a very intimidatingly good defense, decent coaching, and improving talent on offense and special teams. If we can find our franchise QB, it is going to hide a lot of things about the org we don't care for. You might not even hear the word dysfunction for awhile.
 

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Dumpster fires are relative. I'm not saying they haven't felt like a dumpster fire. But we haven't been close to the worst team or franchise in the league imho. We've also had some extraordinarily bad luck in recent years. I don't care who you are, you can't deny that having your starting and backup QBs BOTH break their legs in a quarter season, with the division still in reach, isn't terrible luck.

On the QBs - I couldn't agree more. I like Haskins more than any QB we've drafted in the past 20 years. Quite possible he'll prove to be a mirage, a diva, suffer a career-threatening injury, or as you described we'll find some other way to eff it up. But I still believe that we have a pretty solid roster, what could be a very intimidatingly good defense, decent coaching, and improving talent on offense and special teams. If we can find our franchise QB, it is going to hide a lot of things about the org we don't care for. You might not even hear the word dysfunction for awhile.
I think our defense has some serious potential. I'm not sold at all on the offense. There are a LOT of question marks over there.

We may see another season like last year, with hopefully fewer broken legs. Maybe that will get us 8 or 9 wins.

Wouldn't that be something? :)
 

Elephant

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I already conceded that if he can't do better he should go - I just feel there's more benefit to giving more time (not just to Gruden, but in general) because the constant regime change in untenable.
5 years is plenty of time...doesn't matter what cards they are dealt.

You've decided Gruden is a terrible coach which is your prerogative. But it's not insane to give him a year or two more and see what he can do when he doesn't have to start his 2nd or 3rd QB behind makeshift lines.
And who's fault is it that they didn't have adequate backups. Gruden's? Allens? Or do we place that on Scot? Whoever it is, Gruden has had plenty of time, Allen has had even more time, and neither have proven they deserve the benefit of anything, anymore.

Cerrato was literally a joke Brian. I'm not going to waste my time rehashing some of the decisions he made or the extent to which he was Snyder's racquetball partner and piss boy... you know exactly what I'm talking about.
Which is my point...the horrible Vinnie Cerrato, who when fired could only get a mid day radio gig in the small town market of Baltimore has a better record than Bruce Allen. That should tell you all you need to know about Allen's tenure as a GM/VP. Even if he learned some and made some disciplined moves, it still doesn't make up for his record here and in Tampa where he took a solid structure and turned them back into perennial losers.


I guess one question I have for you (and Al for that matter) is why does it piss you off so badly that I may harbor a little hope for coming seasons? It has no impact on you. You guys are free to believe we are going to be horrific. And I'll keep doing me.
B ut we seem to have a better grasp each off-season of what the team will be in the coming season. I have not been more than a game off in the pre-season predictions before every season under Gruden. It's not hard to predict given the data set we have been. We're just not that good, and if we depend too much on injured players to be ready for a new season for the 3rd season in a row, we'll likely see this team win only 6 this year.
 

Elephant

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It is true that we haven't been turning over coaches like we used to. And we haven't been signing free agents like it's 1999. And we don't get rid of draft picks like they are on fire anymore. That's all good stuff. And hey, we win seven or eight games a year now. So the improvements in these areas are bearing some ... modest results.
That's just it, with the turnstile at Head Coach in the first 10 years under Snyder, we have a better record than the stability of 2 coaches in the past 10 years..
 

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That's just it, with the turnstile at Head Coach in the first 10 years under Snyder, we have a better record than the stability of 2 coaches in the past 10 years..
Well, it is comforting to know that I'm not the biggest pessimist around. I thought I was being particularly harsh, but I now see I can be and do so much more. :D
 

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Well, it is comforting to know that I'm not the biggest pessimist around. I thought I was being particularly harsh, but I now see I can be and do so much more. :D
Not quite sure whether to laugh at this or be saddened by my pessimism regarding this team.
 

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Bart Starr, one of the all-time greats, passed away today. He was 85.

 

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He was a profound influence on the NFL. R.I.P
 

Elephant

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On another note, Young Zeke seems to have gotten himself in trouble. If the NFL does not attend to this, well...there's nothing more I can do except bitch and moan. While knocking over a security guard should be enough, the concerning part was watching him stalk the girl he was with. I'm not talking about hiding in the bushes stalking, I'm talking about hunter about to pounce on his prey. Luckily, she was pretty savvy and mitigated any potential serious violence that could easily have escalated.

https://www.tmz.com/2019/05/20/ezekiel-elliott-handcuffed-edc-vegas-video/
 

Win4us

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"...but the NFL star's attorney says Zeke was NOT formally arrested (only detained) and claims the whole thing is much ado about nothing. ..."

This is what pisses me off. Not only was Zeke on expert level douchebaggery, his lawyer is equally a slimy pos. Karma has a funny way about visiting people, & hopefully she smacks the stupid out of Elliot and his lawyer.
 

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Andrew Luck just announced his retirement - this is not a joke.


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