Random Commanders Thoughts

[Kel Varnsen]

Can you think of a single HC in history that was fired in his very first season as a HC and actually got hired as a HC again? No?

Yeah, Pete Carroll. I'd say it's worked out quite well for him since getting fired from the Jets.

This is fun. Any other brain busters?

 

[TomE]

Getting fired by Dan Snyder, for standing up to him meddling, would have been portrayed as a big win for Gruden.

And, if he's half as totally awesome as you shriek he is, he'd have no problem getting another gig.

He waited until someone else took the lead (Scot) before executing his obligation to the team.

So, he finally made the tough decision, which is what he gets paid quite handsomely for.

He did his job. He did not cure cancer, or end world hunger. Though I'm sure if either of those things ever do happen, you'll find a way to give him full credit for it.

Now wait a minute, I thought his obligation to the team was to get it going in the right direction and 'fix' the starting QB.

Have we all forgotten that Griff injured himself early in the SECOND game of Gruden's rookie season, he already had been through training camp with the kid, discovered his propensity to 'ad lib' on the field and not taken well to coaching (remember the instance in camp when Griff was coached to throw the ball away but he continued on after the whistle to work on a scramble situation). Tape does not show those 'qualities', yep Gibbs or Belichick probably would sit him for a while.... Gruden hasn't quite got that resume' yet.

I suspect that Gruden was willing to continue to work with him and further discover ways to make it work as the season progressed (part of the obligation) but that scenario was no longer available as again, rehab was Griff's primary function during the season.

Yes, Gruden did not 'stand up' to the FO when he relinquished the notion of having a QB competition in his first camp as HC. For that, one could say he didn't have the cajones, but come on Ax..... even you wouldn't have had them at that point..... you can fix everything and make it work 'cause your boss told you to do so and accepted the challenge.... right?

Yep, he could have walked out, breached his contract and labeled quitter.
Yep, he could have been fired, be rich and labeled incompetent.

He stuck around, did his work, learned a little politics, didn't give up on the team, worked with what he had, took a bunch of crap from all sides, figured out some of the HC duties and kept on coaching.

Now that he has succeeded some with the backing of a known 'football guy' in the fold and is still acquiring some football 'cred' himself perhaps he should be given some leeway, right?

How long would have Gibbs been around without the support of Beathard?

Even the biggest cojones need support, 'obviously'.

 

[redskins26]

You asked for proof so I posted several articles saying he was brought here to fix Griffin.

That is where I get the idea that Gruden was brought here. 4 different articles, 4 different people, all saying what a bunch of fans also think. Gruden was brought here to coach Griffin, make him a pocket QB, and get him back on the right track.

He lied. Or he didn't know it. Or he didn't want to so he sabotaged the kid.

who has more speculation though? The articles or the people who don't want to believe it? I believe some outrageous shit myself sometimes and then deny other things when I don't want to believe them. All I know is that there is where I got the idea from.

There was nothing to sabotage. Did you ever think that maybe the stories about Griffen were true? He couldn't read defenses. After he gets demoted then you here how he spends extra time in the film room starts asking questions about defenses. Something he should have been doing a long time ago

 

[redskins26]

did that word hurt your feelings? Did it bother you that I called your guy out in front of the board with words you don't like?

he STILL hasn't steadied the ship, dude. the run game is abysmal at best, the defense is held together by WRs turned to CBs, failed pot roasts, and hopefuls. Outside of Reed and Cousins who really played good enough for you to be happy about?

But you wanna call it great stuff? Well....you do that then.

running games won't be a big part of the NFL going forward if you look running games are waning. Used to be the top running teams were almost always in the playoffs now it's mixed.

 

[redskins26]

Ok, but a day 1 turnaround is false. Like many others have said, his handling of Griffin is not righting the ship... it was not how a coach should handle the situation in my opinion, and the vast majority of the sports world agrees. Hard love is one thing, calling out ANY player in public is not ok.

I'm the first one to look at this franchise now and see a different team then when he walked in the door. I can also look at this team and see a different team then was here day 1 of year 2. Is there progress? Yes. Is he a part of it? Yes. Is he Jimmy Johnson? LOL, not gonna say that yet. Immediately righting the ship, is not what happened. It's happening, but I have to severely disagree with your timeline.

every coach calls players out in public from time to time it's part of the game and motivation. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't

 

[Primus Porcus]

every coach calls players out in public from time to time it's part of the game and motivation. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't

We've got 3 pages of us all going back and forth about this... My opinion, as well as the opinion of the vast majority of people on this board is that the way he called out Griffin is unacceptable. I disagree that it's part of the game and motivation. If he's failing at reads and drops, you say "we're working with Robert to get better' and you teach him in the training rooms, you don't do it in press conferences, i'm sorry i'm not willing to accept that.... not from a 1st year head coach to an already over exposed social media driven QB.


When it happened I was grasping to think it was a positive, but looking back, it absolutely was not.

 

[Elephant]

We've got 3 pages of us all going back and forth about this... My opinion, as well as the opinion of the vast majority of people on this board is that the way he called out Griffin is unacceptable. I disagree that it's part of the game and motivation. If he's failing at reads and drops, you say "we're working with Robert to get better' and you teach him in the training rooms, you don't do it in press conferences, i'm sorry i'm not willing to accept that.... not from a 1st year head coach to an already over exposed social media driven QB.


When it happened I was grasping to think it was a positive, but looking back, it absolutely was not.

It actually goes back to when Gruden first called him out, we've been discussing this one for 2 years now. Again, I go against the grain and see nothing wrong with him calling Griffin or any other player out. However, I think it was his only recourse since the powers that be were tugging at him to give Griffin every opportunity, even if the kid refused to work on the apsect of his game that needed the most work. At the time, I remember thinking it was less about calling out Griffin, as standing up to Daniel Snyder and Bruce Allen because behind the scenes they refused to listen to him.

If it were me and I had a high profile QB whose only attribute at that point was his physical prowess, which was diminished by injury, a GM and an owner all working behind the scenes to force me to play that QB, whom I did not like, I probably would have done the same. It simply looked to me that Gruden tried to sell the other QB's on to the front office and kept getting push back to start Griffin, who obviously could not get the job done. I mean, do you guys remember that Tampa game ant the 77 yard performance Griffin had?

 

[Primus Porcus]

It actually goes back to when Gruden first called him out, we've been discussing this one for 2 years now. Again, I go against the grain and see nothing wrong with him calling Griffin or any other player out. However, I think it was his only recourse since the powers that be were tugging at him to give Griffin every opportunity, even if the kid refused to work on the apsect of his game that needed the most work. At the time, I remember thinking it was less about calling out Griffin, as standing up to Daniel Snyder and Bruce Allen because behind the scenes they refused to listen to him.

If it were me and I had a high profile QB whose only attribute at that point was his physical prowess, which was diminished by injury, a GM and an owner all working behind the scenes to force me to play that QB, whom I did not like, I probably would have done the same. It simply looked to me that Gruden tried to sell the other QB's on to the front office and kept getting push back to start Griffin, who obviously could not get the job done. I mean, do you guys remember that Tampa game ant the 77 yard performance Griffin had?

Oh i remember, and when it happened, I had my fingers crossed that it would work, because if it didnt it was going to stick with him for a long time... and here we are 2 years later. I was the first one to try and say it was a teaching tactic, but it didnt teach him anything. I'm assuming Gruden knew it wasnt going to work, so why do it? PERSONALLY I wish he would have kept it in house, because no actual good can come of it.... All accounts prove to be that he was correct, but it's not the message that was sent that I disagree with, it's the way it was sent that bothers me.

 

[Henry]

It actually goes back to when Gruden first called him out, we've been discussing this one for 2 years now. Again, I go against the grain and see nothing wrong with him calling Griffin or any other player out. However, I think it was his only recourse since the powers that be were tugging at him to give Griffin every opportunity, even if the kid refused to work on the apsect of his game that needed the most work. At the time, I remember thinking it was less about calling out Griffin, as standing up to Daniel Snyder and Bruce Allen because behind the scenes they refused to listen to him.

If it were me and I had a high profile QB whose only attribute at that point was his physical prowess, which was diminished by injury, a GM and an owner all working behind the scenes to force me to play that QB, whom I did not like, I probably would have done the same. It simply looked to me that Gruden tried to sell the other QB's on to the front office and kept getting push back to start Griffin, who obviously could not get the job done. I mean, do you guys remember that Tampa game ant the 77 yard performance Griffin had?

You know, there are very few things about Norv Turner that I remember fondly, but there was this one time ... way back in ol' 98, when we had just lost 7 straight games, and Michael Westbrook, our #1 WR full of promise and potential and possessing all the physical tools, but not much else ... well anyway, he missed a practice and was late for a meeting, so Norv Turner, bless his heart, actually benched the guy for the Giants game. We were 0-7 and Norv Turner benches our best WR. It was craziness.

Anyway, without Westbrook we end up actually beating the Giants. And after the game someone asked about him and, I swear to this day I still remember this, Norv looked right at the reporter and said "I'd rather talk about the players who were on the field today."

Boom. Such a perfect answer. We all KNEW he was pissed at Westbrook and he didn't have to say a goddam thing. It was brilliant.

The next week Westbrook comes back and the Redskins went on to win 6 of their final nine games after that 0-7 start. It was, in my opinion, the best stretch of games Norv Turner ever coached here. And to this day I think the way he handled Westbrook was a big reason.

But maybe that's just me.

 

[McD5]

Getting fired by Dan Snyder, for standing up to him meddling, would have been portrayed as a big win for Gruden

Yeah, maybe in the eyes of tr1

In reality, getting fired in your first year isn't going to be viewed as "a big win" to another owner that has to gamble a guaranteed $20 million to give you another shot. That's absurd.

Yeah, Pete Carroll. I'd say it's worked out quite well for him since getting fired from the Jets.

This is fun. Any other brain busters?

Pete Carroll is one. And I believe Hue Jackson is the second to accomplish such a feat in the last 40 years.

In Hue's case, he was fired by the Raiders after one season. It then took him another five years of paying dues to finally get another chance. And that second chance is at the Factory of Sadness.

The point being, for every one Hue Jackson or Pete Carroll, there are many more Cam Camerons, Jim Tomsulas and Richie Petibons.

It's not exactly a resume builder.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

Pete Carroll is one. And I believe Hue Jackson is the second to accomplish such a feat in the last 40 years.

In Hue's case, he was fired by the Raiders after one season. It then took him another five years of paying dues to finally get another chance. And that second chance is at the Factory of Sadness.

The point being, for every one Hue Jackson or Pete Carroll, there are many more Cam Camerons, Jim Tomsulas and Richie Petibons.

It's not exactly a resume builder.

So that's at least 2 in the history of the NFL, which is more than zero which was your original claim. I guess your original point wasn't meant to be taken seriously, but was just hyperbole to try and win the argument. That's sad because your overall point wasn't a bad one, but once you went with "put his future NFL HC career on the line" and (paraphrased) "no HC has ever been hired after being fired after their first year", you lost me.

 

[Elephant]

The next week Westbrook comes back and the Redskins went on to win 6 of their final nine games after that 0-7 start. It was, in my opinion, the best stretch of games Norv Turner ever coached here. And to this day I think the way he handled Westbrook was a big reason.

But maybe that's just me.

Again, you and ST are missing my point...I get you feel Gruden did not handle it the way you and others here would have liked, and to be honest I would never imagine a member of this site actually use Norv Turner in a positive light to make his point, but you're a contrarion.

Anyway, I think Gruden's response in the media was less about Griffin and more about the relationship between Gruden and the Front Office of the time. What else does a coach have when the FO won't let him do what he wants but to shed light on the problem in the public eye without flat out saying, "I'm hamstrung by my bosses to start a QB who I think sucks?"

As for calling players out, meh...differing styles, I guess. I have no problem with it, I'm a little more blunt than most, I guess. Maybe the tact was less efficient than that of Norvelle's, but the effect was the same. Once ridden of the problem, the Redskins went on to have a solid season the following year. The buffer of Scot seemed to help that along, I know...but getting that dirty laundry out in the air, helped shed light on the problem...and we all know now after the stories have been coming out since Gruden used the media route, is that Gruden was right. But some of you still think the entire of RG3 is not written, yet.

 

[stevenaa]

I just wish I could forget 2012 as easily as some folks...

We all wish you could. Kidding !!!!

Look guys. All that matters is that after that first year. RG struggled and didn't improve. He was a victim of coaching mistakes, ownership mistakes, injuries, and his own mistakes. Trying to define which of those, or any others I failed to mention, is the primary cause is a fools errand. It's a sum total proposition. He's moved on, so the discussion is moot at this point. It just keeps dredging up and fostering ill will. Maybe we could all just agree to let it go.

 

[Henry]

Again, you and ST are missing my point...I get you feel Gruden did not handle it the way you and others here would have liked, and to be honest I would never imagine a member of this site actually use Norv Turner in a positive light to make his point, but you're a contrarion.

Anyway, I think Gruden's response in the media was less about Griffin and more about the relationship between Gruden and the Front Office of the time. What else does a coach have when the FO won't let him do what he wants but to shed light on the problem in the public eye without flat out saying, "I'm hamstrung by my bosses to start a QB who I think sucks?"

Nah, I got it. And it's a good point. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Gruden was just voicing his frustration to the media about being ganged up on by Griffin and Snyder and Allen ... or whatever. But without knowing for sure what's what, I can only go with what I saw. And I saw a coach who spoke without thinking a lot the first year.

As I said, I think McLovin's arrival balanced things out a lot and helped stabilize things in the front office. Hopefully from now on thing swill keep on going as they have past season.

As for calling players out, meh...differing styles, I guess. I have no problem with it, I'm a little more blunt than most, I guess. Maybe the tact was less efficient than that of Norvelle's, but the effect was the same. Once ridden of the problem, the Redskins went on to have a solid season the following year. The buffer of Scot seemed to help that along, I know...but getting that dirty laundry out in the air, helped shed light on the problem...and we all know now after the stories have been coming out since Gruden used the media route, is that Gruden was right. But some of you still think the entire of RG3 is not written, yet.

Calling out a player isn't the worst thing ever, but Gruden was particularly sloppy about it. I didn't like it. Probably never will.

As far as the RG3 thing being written or not, again, don't care. He's not a Redskin any more. At this point I'm just concerned with Gruden.

 

[Ax]

It actually goes back to when Gruden first called him out, we've been discussing this one for 2 years now. Again, I go against the grain and see nothing wrong with him calling Griffin or any other player out. However, I think it was his only recourse since the powers that be were tugging at him to give Griffin every opportunity, even if the kid refused to work on the apsect of his game that needed the most work. At the time, I remember thinking it was less about calling out Griffin, as standing up to Daniel Snyder and Bruce Allen because behind the scenes they refused to listen to him.

If it were me and I had a high profile QB whose only attribute at that point was his physical prowess, which was diminished by injury, a GM and an owner all working behind the scenes to force me to play that QB, whom I did not like, I probably would have done the same. It simply looked to me that Gruden tried to sell the other QB's on to the front office and kept getting push back to start Griffin, who obviously could not get the job done.

Having the authority, by way of a guaranteed contract, and the balls to use that authority, I'd have marched into Dan's office and told him, "Part of my job is assuring that we play the best players on gameday. It's an obligation to everyone in the locker that we give them the best opportunity to win. Right now, Griffin is not the best option at QB. And until I think he is, he will not start. I know you like the guy, but I have 52 other guys that are depending on us to do the right thing. And that's what I'm going to do, as long as I'm the head coach here".

It's that...****ing...easy.

In reality, getting fired in your first year isn't going to be viewed as "a big win" to another owner that has to gamble a guaranteed $20 million to give you another shot. That's absurd.

Well, with some of the stuff that comes out of your mouth, you are definitely an authority on, absurd.

Should I reconsider my stance?

No. No need to. Kel Varsen just ran your hyperbole through a wood chipper.

So that's at least 2 in the history of the NFL, which is more than zero which was your original claim. I guess your original point wasn't meant to be taken seriously, but was just hyperbole to try and win the argument. That's sad because your overall point wasn't a bad one, but once you went with "put his future NFL HC career on the line" and (paraphrased) "no HC has ever been hired after being fired after their first year", you lost me.

 

[Henry]

Let's also keep in mind that while getting fired after one year would have been a very bad thing for Gruden, it's not like he didn't have any leverage. After all, firing a coach after one year would have been equally bad for Snyder, if not moreso. Think we would have ever been able to hire any coach of any quality at all ever again after rapid-firing two-time-superbowl-winning Shanahan and rising-star-Jay-Gruden in back-to-back years?

No. It would behoove both parties to work something out. To put the entirety of the blame on one person or to entirely exempt one person for what happened doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[TomE]

Having the authority, by way of a guaranteed contract, and the balls to use that authority, I'd have marched into Dan's office and told him, "Part of my job is assuring that we play the best players on gameday. It's an obligation to everyone in the locker that we give them the best opportunity to win. Right now, Griffin is not the best option at QB. And until I think he is, he will not start. I know you like the guy, but I have 52 other guys that are depending on us to do the right thing. And that's what I'm going to do, as long as I'm the head coach here".

That's great and all but again, two games in Griff was out of the picture doing rehab.

Sure, Gruden probably already had the sense of who his guy was but up to that point one could also say that he had not given up on the 'golden child' that virtually everyone wanted to get going.

The entire season basically ended up being a QB competition in real time. Kirk had a rough outing, Colt was not quite the answer, got injured and Griff's development was again off schedule and still looked like crap when he did get back in.

So who exactly was Gruden going to stand on the table for in 2014?

If Kirk had shown better (fewer mistakes, less pouting, more confidence).....that is when I would have expected Gruden to take to the tabletop, balls and all.

 

[Win4us]

I think the team should consider firing Matt Cavanaugh and hiring Angela Rypien as qb coach.

Just a thought

 

[Elephant]

Having the authority, by way of a guaranteed contract, and the balls to use that authority, I'd have marched into Dan's office and told him, "Part of my job is assuring that we play the best players on gameday. It's an obligation to everyone in the locker that we give them the best opportunity to win. Right now, Griffin is not the best option at QB. And until I think he is, he will not start. I know you like the guy, but I have 52 other guys that are depending on us to do the right thing. And that's what I'm going to do, as long as I'm the head coach here".

It's that...****ing...easyr.

How do you know he didn't and Dan and Bruce said, no...you start Griffin? Thus his only alternatives were go public or quit.

 

[stevenaa]

We'll never hear the truth, and if we did and it didn't fit our personal narratives, we wouldn't believe it anyway. He's gone. Outta here. Yesterdays news. Keep the great memories of his first season, and forget the rest.