Player of the Game

[Lanky Livingston]

So, what do we do with someone that is as big a liabilty in pass coverage as Landry is right now?

My vote would be to move him...maybe we could get a 2nd round pick for him. I would trust Moore/Horton/Doughty in the safety roles. Maybe move Smoot back there also.

 

[Bulldog]

Keep Landry, move him to SS in 2010, and start to look elsewhere to 'cut the fat.'

Rabach needs to go. Randy Thomas needs to go. ARE needs to go. Collins needs to go. These are now marginal players that make much more than the minimum.

If you are going to trade anyone for picks make it Cooley. At least you have found capable depth there with Davis.
Posted via BGO Mobile Device

 

[Lanky Livingston]

If you are going to trade anyone for picks make it Cooley. At least you have found capable depth there with Davis.
Posted via BGO Mobile Device

Worst. Idea. Ever.

Trade Cooley? Absolutely not.

 

[kirbster]

Worst. Idea. Ever.

Trade Cooley? Absolutely not.

Absolutely yes! I love Cooley, but right now he offers no more than Davis, and is one of the few players with trade value. A lot of teams could use Cooley and probably could give us some good players or draft picks. It'd be one of the best moves we could make.

 

[Neophyte]

Yeah, if I were GM of this team I would not be trading either Davis or Cooley right now. In fact, if the decision has been made to go a different direction with the coaching next year (and I believe it has), I would looking for a guy who was enthusiastic about running 2 TE sets with Cooley and Davis.

Can you imagine what a young Gibbs could have done with these two guys?

It is possible that the Skins have the best TE set in the league right now (Dallas might be better but if so, just barely).

 

[Elephant]

Let's pose this question in the trade Cooley debate. If it meant we had a shot at a Herschel Walker type of deal, would you pull the trigger on trading Cooley? I know the reality of it is slim. I don't think even Vinny Cerrato would go for something like that, but if we could get say a 1st and 3rd from a sub par squad who thinks that by adding Cooley they can win the Super Bowl, would you do it?

 

[servumtuum]

Maybe it's just me, but I seem to notice a general shift in the tenor of discussions away from the "tear this thing down and build something that will work" and toward "let's see what pieces of the puzzle we can rearrange to continue the improvement".

Interesting how success can change perspectives, apparently.

 

[Neophyte]

Maybe it's just me, but I seem to notice a general shift in the tenor of discussions away from the "tear this thing down and build something that will work" and toward "let's see what pieces of the puzzle we can rearrange to continue the improvement".

Interesting how success can change perspectives, apparently.

I was part of the "tear this thing down" camp a few weeks ago. My opinion was, in large part, predicated on the idea that the team would not show any improvement over the last half the season and that we were getting the best we could hope for out of this group of players and coaches (especially on offense). That seems now to have been proven incorrect.

I am now trying to decide if the light has actually come on for Campbell. If maybe the game is beginning to slow down for him and Davis and Thomas and if maybe the system is finally starting to become second nature, allowing these guys to just play ball rather than think so much.

I have not decided yet.

At any rate, there were a few sacred cows for me even had we started over and Cooley was one of them. He still is. I firmly believe that a team with two really talented TEs would cause match up fits for defenses and would love to see it.

 

[Sarge]

Maybe it's just me, but I seem to notice a general shift in the tenor of discussions away from the "tear this thing down and build something that will work" and toward "let's see what pieces of the puzzle we can rearrange to continue the improvement".

Interesting how success can change perspectives, apparently.

I think that is just nature Serv. If something's not working, you want to fix it. I think we can all agree that two month ago, things weren't working. Now, it looks as if they're starting to make it work. At least a little. If it's the start of a foundation, it's been a couple of years in the making. Why screw with it now?

Of course, the danny won't be able to resist

 

[Henry]

I'm still part of the 'tear this thing down' camp. Of course the 'thing' isn't the team. It's the front office structure. If a new GM thinks Campbell doesn't suck and will fit in with his overall philosophy, great. Keep him. If he wants to trade Cooley. Fine. Just have a freaking plan for once.

But whatever. I find it rather disheartening that a couple close losses followed by one win over a lousy team fielding the worst QB in the NFL for half the game is suddenly making us re-think our attitude towards this team. If so, Dan Snyder is right. A win or two and we're all back to being a bunch of suckers.

 

[Boone]

I've said all along - the Redskins always start looking promising when the season is lost. I'm tired of it. I'm with Henry all the way. I have zero confidence our little 'renaissance' of the past 3-4 games means much. That's not to diminish the effort, but my fundamental view of the Redskins franchise isn't going to be changed by a couple of respectable finishes in meaningless games.

 

[Sarge]

Well, that's the quandry, isn't it? If the urdBlossom and Bug Eyes jettison everything, we'll never know. OTOH, Jason said the game has "slowed down" for him, and a lot of others are playing for jobs next year.

That's not to say the O-line doesn't need a revamp, because once again JC was getting killed and they looked like ass in general in Oakland.

But will things start to click if the line is beefed up and the rest remains intact? (minus El and Portis hopefully).

The only way to know is to bring them back. they can't possibly suck any more than they have this year and if they pull a repeat, THEN jettison the whole mess

 

[Neophyte]

I'm still part of the 'tear this thing down' camp. Of course the 'thing' isn't the team. It's the front office structure. If a new GM thinks Campbell doesn't suck and will fit in with his overall philosophy, great. Keep him. If he wants to trade Cooley. Fine. Just have a freaking plan for once.

I am fine with the plan idea. I whole-heartedly embrace it. I just don't see Vinny going anywhere after the year is out, not at this point.

But whatever. I find it rather disheartening that a couple close losses followed by one win over a lousy team fielding the worst QB in the NFL for half the game is suddenly making us re-think our attitude towards this team. If so, Dan Snyder is right. A win or two and we're all back to being a bunch of suckers.

For the record, my attitude changes a bit after every game. It always has. I look for signs that guys are getting "it", however that is currently defined. I pay attention to coaching decisions to see if Zorn and his staff are making some form of progress (in my limited opinion, of course).

I am currently re-thinking my attitude about certain things, namely Jason Campbell and the current offense.

If Jason is seeing the light and the game is slowing down, then a QB drops down the priority list, at the very least. For me, it was hardly a forgone conclusion that a QB was the biggest priority anyway but the last 3 games have me looking at it even harder and frankly, even if this team were definitely just a QB short I don't' want Vinny picking that guy.

What I am not doing is returning to being a sucker. There isn't any Skins gear on my Christmas list and I am not lining up to buy tickets for a game or the next season. I'm a realist and until I see some sustained excellence I am not going to get too "up" over things.

I've said all along - the Redskins always start looking promising when the season is lost. I'm tired of it. I'm with Henry all the way. I have zero confidence our little 'renaissance' of the past 3-4 games means much. That's not to diminish the effort, but my fundamental view of the Redskins franchise isn't going to be changed by a couple of respectable finishes in meaningless games.

My confidence has hardly been restored either, Boone. I am still the skeptic and will remain so until such time as I have been proven wrong by the team.

However, as feed up with it as I am, I am equally feed up with change every couple of years. It isn't just Campbell that has suffered from it. It's the whole team. Under the Little Napoleon we had a year of Norv's offense, followed by a year of Jimmy Raye's offense, two years of the Ole Ball Coach's offense, two years of Gibbs, two years of Sanders and two years of Zorn.

No team can be successful like that.

The defense has enjoyed the most consistency under Williams for 4 years and now 2 years under Blache who worked under Williams. It is a unit that can contend with just about any in the league and that consistency is part of it, or so I believe. I honestly think a big reason the offense is doing as well as it is doing now is a testament to Buges, the biggest consistency on that side of the ball. Maybe there isn't a lot of talent but what is there has been coached the same way, by the same guy, for 6 years now.

This leaves me between a rock and a hard spot.

I think Vinny has likely done enough to save himself. His second round guys from 08 are playing well and contributing. Rinehart would be starting if not for a broken leg, Tryon has played well this year and Horton has been amazing. This year draft of Orakpo looks better every week even in the face of how thin the offensive line is and we all think Mitchell would be the equal of either of last years WRs if he could just get a few snaps. Digging up Gano, if he continues to kick like he did this last week, looks like another notch in his belt.

If we are real about it we all know the Danny was just looking for a reason to keep Vinny around and now has several excuses to do so where only one or two would have done the job. If I can't get rid of Vinny then I have little hope of getting the "plan" we all want to see.

That being the case, I think I vote for some continuity since it looks like the players might be getting it. That means giving Zorn and Campbell another year.

 

[servumtuum]

Well, that's the quandry, isn't it? If the urdBlossom and Bug Eyes jettison everything, we'll never know. OTOH, Jason said the game has "slowed down" for him, and a lot of others are playing for jobs next year.

That's not to say the O-line doesn't need a revamp, because once again JC was getting killed and they looked like ass in general in Oakland.

But will things start to click if the line is beefed up and the rest remains intact? (minus El and Portis hopefully).

The only way to know is to bring them back. they can't possibly suck any more than they have this year and if they pull a repeat, THEN jettison the whole mess

It's a hell of a dilemma isn't it? My previous post was basically a preface to admitting that I'm in a quandry-every post after mine by you, Neo, Mike, Henry, and Boone all contain thoughts I've had recently-yeah, Mike I want Cooley around, but GOD, what bait he could be! It's difficult not to be seduced by the team's recent performances into thinking that maybe I underestimated what this team's capable of-with a tweak here and there.

On the other hand-I, along with innumerable others, have ranted at Danny to get his hands off of the team, get rid of Vinny permanently, hire a GM and let him re-build from scratch and so on and so forth with little hope he ever would do such a thing.

And now I'm scared that's what he may do. Not that re-building isn't a viable idea-in this area I understand both Henry's and Boone's positions. What frightens me is the conviction that "the Dan" may indeed follow through with a re-build-but on his terms-flash 'n cash. Big names for big money. And in the process he will undo whatever progress that may have been made. Why do I think so? Because I'm afraid that this "performance improvement" will do more than mollify irate fans-I'm afraid that both Danny and Vinny will consider this a vindication of their piecemeal team-building philosophy that has kept the Skins at best an average NFL football team for a decade.

Bottom line, as good as it felt to wallop the Raiders and come damn close to knocking off the Saints (however the Falcons came as close as we did, interestingly enough.), a small part of me was thinking "crap-draft position just took a hit, and so did the probable public pressure on the Redskin FO".

It's a hell of a note, wanting the team to win and still being able to have bad feelings about it when they do.

 

[The Burgundy Ghost]

I think it would be a mistake to trade Cooley.

However, the problem with the Skins is that they have no plan. They have no identity. They just react and make a move because of the reaction.

You bring a real football GM who has a plan. Let him pick the coach to run that plan system and then let both of them evaluate each and every player to determine if they fit that plan or scheme.

Weed out the guys who don't (usually a 1-2 year process or more) via cuts and trades.
Keep the guys you want to build around and form your team in a few years.

Now if Cooley doesn't fit the plan, maybe it would be a good move. But I'm pretty sure most teams would find a way to use both Davis and Cooley. This is a tough decision that you don't mind having.

 

[Henry]

I think it would be a mistake to trade Cooley.

However, the problem with the Skins is that they have no plan. They have no identity. They just react and make a move because of the reaction.

You bring a real football GM who has a plan. Let him pick the coach to run that plan system and then let both of them evaluate each and every player to determine if they fit that plan or scheme.

Weed out the guys who don't (usually a 1-2 year process or more) via cuts and trades.
Keep the guys you want to build around and form your team in a few years.

Now if Cooley doesn't fit the plan, maybe it would be a good move. But I'm pretty sure most teams would find a way to use both Davis and Cooley. This is a tough decision that you don't mind having.

That's what I was trying to say, only you were far less cranky.

I have to apologize for my posts over the past few days. I think I've just been listening to too much sports radio, where too many callers are suddenly thrilled with the team and think things will be just fine next year with one or two tweaks. It's driving me a little insane.

Anyway, I'm not trying to attack anyone on this board. I know you guys have big brains and aren't thinking anything that I'm not thinking. The way this team continues to give us half a season and our fanbase eats it up is just driving me to the edge of sanity is all.

 

[servumtuum]

That's what I was trying to say, only you were far less cranky.

I have to apologize for my posts over the past few days. I think I've just been listening to too much sports radio, where too many callers are suddenly thrilled with the team and think things will be just fine next year with one or two tweaks. It's driving me a little insane.

Anyway, I'm not trying to attack anyone on this board. I know you guys have big brains and aren't thinking anything that I'm not thinking. The way this team continues to give us half a season and our fanbase eats it up is just driving me to the edge of sanity is all.

Henry, I spent about an hour perusing that "other" well known Skins forum last night, particularly a thread that's revolving around this very topic. You're not being cranky at all-those guys are downright nasty-invective and insults flying everywhere-yuck! Once again my thanks go to the owners here for a Skins forum free of flaming, trolling and generally repulsive behavior.

 

[Neophyte]

That's what I was trying to say, only you were far less cranky.

I have to apologize for my posts over the past few days. I think I've just been listening to too much sports radio, where too many callers are suddenly thrilled with the team and think things will be just fine next year with one or two tweaks. It's driving me a little insane.

Anyway, I'm not trying to attack anyone on this board. I know you guys have big brains and aren't thinking anything that I'm not thinking. The way this team continues to give us half a season and our fanbase eats it up is just driving me to the edge of sanity is all.

No reason to apologize, sir. I didn't even consider your posts to be cranky.

It doesn't help the fans when you have the media writing stuff like THIS either. I like Pappas and usually his stuff is pretty darn good but now he is writing a defense of Vinny? Come on.

The team is playing better and I am willing to give Vinny some credit for bringing in Lewis. I think that has helped but I don't know it for sure. Like everyone else it is just conjecture.

However, we know Vinny is responsible for the personnel issues on these team. It is all well and good to credit him for bringing in guys in the middle of the season however, he is the one who left the cupboard bare in the spring and summer. He is the guy who has drafted only one offensive linemen over the course of the last two years.

I said somewhere, last year, (might have been that other site, just not sure and I can't find the post now) that maybe this is all part of the plan. Receivers take longer to come around than linemen so maybe drafting them last year to season them before shoring up the line was the plan. If so, drafting some linemen this year would have gone a long way toward making me feel better about it. That didn't happen and only a fool or a complete incompetent really thought Samuels and Thomas both would last the season this year.

 

[Sarge]

The thing about vinny is this. He brought Lewis in because it was obvious to EVERYONE that Zorn was sinking and needed help. He also brought him in because he realized from sitting next to the danny every weekend that the danny was losing it and that vinny was probably going to feel the wrath if the ****tiness kept up.

Yeah, vinny has made some moves that have saved his ass, but if he was such a genius whey didn't he forsee all of this before the year started? Why didn't he forsee Zorn taking on too much? Why did he have to go and pull Jones off the scapeheap and pray for the best? Why hasn't he seen that if Portis went down that we had marginal backs behind him?

Sorry Mr Pappas, but you're defending the Alamo here