PFT: Gruden says the “clock’s ticking” on Griffin

[micks113]

So, Griffin was not good today. At all. He was bad. So can someone tell me what the point of Gruden's little tirade was? Did it fix anything? Help anything at all? I sure as shit hope it made Gruden feel better, because that's about the only upside I can see...

Take a step back and open your eyes. The point of the tirade was to send the message. He had already delivered the message to the players and team. The public part was to let the media and front office know where he stands on the performance issue. That is what you do when you can see the light at the end of the tunnel and its a train. You prepare everyone for what's to come.

 

[fansince62]

And, this scheme is prone to INTs.

Robert's hesitation could be Cousin's 'what the hell' INT.

INTs are qb killers...ask Cousins and Rex.

I do hope Colt gets in just to shut RG3 detractors up. After his third pick in one game, folks might be looking at Gruden's scheme.

it's prone to ints IF the o-line doesn't provide adequate time (i.e., the QBs pull the trigger early to avoid the sack). it's the flip side to RG waiting too long. arm strength is another factor.

 

[fansince62]

Take a step back and open your eyes. The point of the tirade was to send the message. He had already delivered the message to the players and team. The public part was to let the media and front office know where he stands on the performance issue. That is what you do when you can see the light at the end of the tunnel and its a train. You prepare everyone for what's to come.

Micks...no it's not my man. there's a standing rule in leadership 101: praise publicly, criticize privately. how can a coach even look the players in the eyes, after this, when he tells them "let's keep all our problems in house"?

 

[micks113]

fansince62: this team has deep, systemic issues that need to be fixed. until they are....episodes like Griffin are just a rewind of the same soap opera plot.


for our edification, why don't you post the top 5 "systemic" issues so we'll know what the heck you are talking about?

I would like to analyze them instead of accepting face value whatever you throw that sticks to the wall.

 

[micks113]

IF they have decided to go in a different direction, we need to find a qb, whether that be on this roster or elsewhere, that is the TYPE of player we want to fit the scheme. They dont have to be the future, but if we're going to take this team in a new direction, put someone back there that fits the scheme were going to go in. That way we're at least building in a direction. If Colt fits the mold of the ideal player in the scheme, he needs to play, even if we pick up a qb later. Install the scheme and maintain it...

Now someone is talking sense. Griffin simply doesn't not work in Grudens scheme. Square peg round hole. Someone said let Griffin play it out, fail on his own, then open the competition up next year. Don't think that can happen as Griffin's extension must be signed May 1, couple days after the draft. We need to make the Griffin decision as soon as possible so we can speed up the rebuild. The rebuild must take the shape of Gruden's philosophy. It must. If Snyder disagrees we go down the tubes. We must give the leaders of the team the chance to make it work. We need to acquire the players that buy into it.

I fear Griffin is the next Vick, a coach killer. Vick never bought in to any coach and only relied on his talent. Vick was a failure as a man, at least Griffin has his personal life in some sense of order. Vick did not.

Painful to watch the team go down this road, but we can't throw the baby (Gruden) out with the bath water. To early, he must build the team in his own image/vision first. We owe that to a head coach, we never really tried that before.

 

[Primus Porcus]

Now someone is talking sense. Griffin simply doesn't not work in Grudens scheme. Square peg round hole. Someone said let Griffin play it out, fail on his own, then open the competition up next year. Don't think that can happen as Griffin's extension must be signed May 1, couple days after the draft. We need to make the Griffin decision as soon as possible so we can speed up the rebuild. The rebuild must take the shape of Gruden's philosophy. It must. If Snyder disagrees we go down the tubes. We must give the leaders of the team the chance to make it work. We need to acquire the players that buy into it.

I fear Griffin is the next Vick, a coach killer. Vick never bought in to any coach and only relied on his talent. Vick was a failure as a man, at least Griffin has his personal life in some sense of order. Vick did not.

Painful to watch the team go down this road, but we can't throw the baby (Gruden) out with the bath water. To early, he must build the team in his own image/vision first. We owe that to a head coach, we never really tried that before.

The bigger issue is that trying to run an offense with a QB who is incapable of doing so stunts the development of the rest of the offense. Even if whoever gets plugged int here next year (assuming it isn't Griffin) is a stop gap while we address the other major issues in the offense, we have to have someone behind center who grasps the offense and can execute it, and is cut from the same mold as the QB they intend to ride behind... even if it's only in practice. There are 10 other guys out there involved in the scheme and the lack of understanding and execution by the QB is going to hinder their ability to perfect it. People want us to adapt to Griffin but the problem with that... it messed up the offense for the other 10 guys. We NEED a fundamental base scheme that we can build from.

 

[fansince62]

micks: Gruden doesn't know how to play the market in a big time way. so.....I agree whole heartedly with the baby metaphor.

I'm beyond caring at this point....but I will say this: I see NO QB prospects on the horizon. not much in this year's crop that inspires any confidence. it will take several years to develop any QB. I think Gruden is toast unless Snyder and the fans are willing to tolerate another succession of losing to mediocre seasons while the Iggles, Gints and Boys trade leadership positions at the top of the division.

Griffin didn't mess up the offense. he has regressed. badly. no argument there. but anyone who has watched that offense for at least two years now knows that line can't passpro for **it. for every screw-up of Griffins it's painfully easy to point to pathetic blocking by the RT, RG, center and substitute LTs. these guys have routinely been out-quicked and over-powered in passpro. I will repeat: there are two things going on here....griffin's decline and an o-line that sucks at passpro. IT'S BOTH. AND BOTH NEED TO BE FIXED. too bad fixing the QB will take several years....if we're lucky. we've been trying to fix that position on a semi-permamnet basis for over 20 years now.

somehow....I'm not inclined to invest faith in dreamers who believe sacking the Queen will somehow light the fuse of the Redskin Reformation. the arguments about player/system are arcane and folly, IMO, in the very real sense that no strategy is going to work until a championship caliber QB is found.

 

[GSF]

I think what is happening with Griffin and Gruden is actually pretty simple. Gruden looked at the film before he took the job and saw what a lot of people have seen: a very athletic, talented QB that lacked fundamentals. Gruden was given the job by Snyder under the condtion that he could and would teach Robert those fundamentals. Gruden has now realized that Griffin does not think he lacks fundamentals and does not want to be taught them. Gruden now realizes that like Shanahan before him, he's screwed, and is now starting to express it.

Trent Dilfer talked about it a little today on the radio, and Cooley and others have alluded to it as well. Robert is a smart, talented kid, but he really doesn't think he's the problem, when clearly he is a big part of the problem. He doesn't want to be "coached up", which is a very frustrating thing for a coach hired to do exactly that.

The shame of it all is I believe that RG3 could get it turned around fairly quickly if he would just buy in to some good coaching, which doesn't appear likely right now. I also think that the Skins could get it turned around really quickly if RG3 could get going and they could add some talent on the oline, but that is looking more and more like a fantasy at this point..

The Shanahans were actually really smart to design that 2012 offense that let Griffin make plays and hid his weaknesses. They were also smart enough to realize that the 2012 offense was not sustainable, and eventually Griffin would have to learn the fundamentals of being an nfl qb. This was all exposed to the league when griffin tried to play injured and couldn't rely on his mobility and stunk.

How this all will end who knows, but it doesn't look pretty right now for Griffin or Gruden.

 

[micks113]

micks: Gruden doesn't know how to play the market in a big time way. so.....I agree whole heartedly with the baby metaphor.



I'm beyond caring at this point....but I will say this: I see NO QB prospects on the horizon. not much in this year's crop that inspires any confidence. it will take several years to develop any QB. I think Gruden is toast unless Snyder and the fans are willing to tolerate another succession of losing to mediocre seasons while the Iggles, Gints and Boys trade leadership positions at the top of the division.

Don't even know what you mean by that first comment.

Two things. First, no one saw Nick Foles, or Romo for that matter, as anything either. None of us here can pick good QBs from college to pros. I trust Gruden to find the right guy for his scheme. That should be his right if he has to rebuild. Griffin was inherited and you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Griffin can't do anything the prototype QB is required of. See Luck for example of how much extra effort it took to get him pro ready. He already knew. Griffin was the sexy pick, injury took away his assets and left us with a QB that looks lost and hasn't learned the fundamentals at the pro level. We all knew that was not his forte when we got him.

Second, the old days are long over for "developing" a QB and taking 5 years. Doesn't happen anymore because of the changes in the college game. More colleges are run like pro teams, especially on offense. You don't sit a high draft pick in the hope he learns a play book on the pine. Look at all the young QB's playing, count em.

If nothing else, you restrict your draft to winning teams and you will get better results than we have had. I'll take 5 Alabama players against any of the rest of the draft. They are a pro team to me. But I want the prototype QB that is closest to what Gruden envisions for his offense to make it work. By prototype I don't want a statue I want the pocket passer who is mobile enough to extend the play and get the first down himself if need be. A guy like Luck or Rogers, or Wilson. Heck even Matt ryan or Ravens QB. They would all excel on our team. But I also agree to trade up for linemen to make sure we get guys that can play. That's how JJones did it. Cows target their players based on need, then are not afraid of trading up to rd 1 or higher in rd1 to get him. So far it has paid off in spades for them. That's a draft strategy that ignores best player available, which we can't seem to make work. But we don't have to have the top 8 pick to draft a QB, they are out there and we need the best minds we can add to the staff to find them.

We can't throw our hands up and give up, we keep bringing in the QB or if we have to keep bringing in the coach, sooner or later we will hit on something. And sooner or later we have to keep a coach around long enough to make a difference. There are players worth keeping and we'll get better if allowed to rebuild the right way. Got to get the locker room straight.

 

[fansince62]

Two things. First, no one saw Nick Foles, or Romo for that matter, as anything either. None of here can pick good QBs from college to pros. I trust Gruden to find the right guy for his scheme. That should be his right if he has to rebuild. Griffin was inherited and you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Griffin can't do anything the prototype QB is required of. See Luck for example of how much extra effort it took to get him pro ready. He already knew. Griffin was the sexy pick, injury took away his assets and left us with a QB that looks lost and hasn't learned the fundamentals at the pro level.

Second, the old days are long over for "developing" a QB and taking 5 years. Doesn't happen anymore because of the changes in the college game. More colleges are run like pro teams, especially on offense. You don't sit a high draft pick in the hope he learns a play book on the pine. Look at all the young QB's playing, count em.

If nothing else, you restrict your draft to winning teams and you will get better results than we have had. I'll take 5 Alabama players against any of the rest of the draft. They are a pro team to me. But I want the prototype QB that is closest to what Gruden envisions for his offense to make it work. By prototype I don't want a statue I want the pocket passer who is mobile enough to extend the play and get the first down himself if need be. A guy like Luck or Rogers, or Wilson. Heck even Matt ryan or Ravens QB. They would all excel on our team. But I also agree to trade up for linemen to make sure we get guys that can play. That's how JJones did it. Cows target their players based on need, then are not afraid of trading up to rd 1 or higher in rd1 to get him. So far it has paid off in spades for them. That's a draft strategy that ignores best player available, which we can't seem to make work. But we don't have to have the top 8 pick to draft a QB, they are out there and we need the best minds we can add to the staff to find them. We can't throw our hands up and give up, we keep bringing in the QB or if we have to keep bringing in the coach, sooner or later we will hit on something. And sooner or later we have to keep a coach around long enough to make a difference.

ok...tell you what....let's bet several hundred dollars: if the Skins draft a QB next season...given that the paradigm now is not to develop them (say...like Rogers)...that whomever Washington drafts will take them to the division title in his first season.

Not picking on you (at least intentionally): I know what you want.....but that doesn't mean it simply happens. Gruden can pick whomever is available at the draft position we end up in.

there are ton of young QBs playing alright - because of all the sucky young QB failures they have replaced!!! here's reality: there are four, maybe five, top tier QBs in the NFL. perennial winners with outstanding skillsets. that's it. I can see the argument for shedding Griffin. I just don't sip the kool aid that somehow, magically, we're going to be successful at something this team has failed at for 20+ years and which the league generally fails at as well. call me a fatalist - apologies in advance!

AL QBs, btw, haven't done much in the NFL lately.

 

[Boone]

I think what is happening with Griffin and Gruden is actually pretty simple. Gruden looked at the film before he took the job and saw what a lot of people have seen: a very athletic, talented QB that lacked fundamentals. Gruden was given the job by Snyder under the condtion that he could and would teach Robert those fundamentals. Gruden has now realized that Griffin does not think he lacks fundamentals and does not want to be taught them. Gruden now realizes that like Shanahan before him, he's screwed, and is now starting to express it.

I would be curious how you've determined all that GSF. Griffin's not playing well, but you know what? Gruden has been a failure in the head coach role to date. His defense (and it is HIS defense), his Special Teams, his offense (even outside of Griffin's play), and his playcalling have all been poor. Griffin is struggling mightily, but where I have a problem is when people are claiming to know his heart and mind. We don't. And I think he deserves at least a little benefit of the doubt. He's young, and that may be his biggest crime to date. And I'll keep saying it, if Gruden has already written off Griffin in the brief amount of live play time he's had, he's not much of a coach.

Trent Dilfer talked about it a little today on the radio, and Cooley and others have alluded to it as well. Robert is a smart, talented kid, but he really doesn't think he's the problem, when clearly he is a big part of the problem. He doesn't want to be "coached up", which is a very frustrating thing for a coach hired to do exactly that.

Interesting that you mentioned two guys who have zero direct knowledge of what's actually going on in the locker room and behind the scenes. They just don't. That doesn't mean they are wrong. But neither is in a position to know. They may have ties to people close to the situation, but those people are just giving their individual perspective.

The shame of it all is I believe that RG3 could get it turned around fairly quickly if he would just buy in to some good coaching, which doesn't appear likely right now.

Are you sure that it's not the coaching itself that's part of the problem? Griffin appears to at least be trying to play within the confines of Gruden's system. He's not taking off willy nilly every time a play breaks down. He may not be playing well but I don't get the feeling he is resistant to changing his game or adopting a different offense. It just isn't working. Again - that's not all on Griffin's 'attitude', or there's not evidence it is anyway.

I say all that with respect that most see it differently. But as brutal a beating as Griffin is taking on and off the field these days, I just feel the need to provide some balance. The mess that is the Washington Redskins is far from being all on Robert Griffin (not that you are saying it is).

How this all will end who knows, but it doesn't look pretty right now for Griffin or Gruden.

Ahhh....we finally find common ground!

 

[fansince62]

I would be curious how you've determined all that GSF. Griffin's not playing well, but you know what? Gruden has been a failure in the head coach role to date. His defense (and it is HIS defense), his Special Teams, his offense (even outside of Griffin's play), and his playcalling have all been poor. Griffin is struggling mightily, but where I have a problem is when people are claiming to know his heart and mind. We don't. And I think he deserves at least a little benefit of the doubt. He's young, and that may be his biggest crime to date. And I'll keep saying it, if Gruden has already written off Griffin in the brief amount of live play time he's had, he's not much of a coach.



Interesting that you mentioned two guys who have zero direct knowledge of what's actually going on in the locker room and behind the scenes. They just don't. That doesn't mean they are wrong. But neither is in a position to know. They may have ties to people close to the situation, but those people are just giving their individual perspective.



Are you sure that it's not the coaching itself that's part of the problem? Griffin appears to at least be trying to play within the confines of Gruden's system. He's not taking off willy nilly every time a play breaks down. He may not be playing well but I don't get the feeling he is resistant to changing his game or adopting a different offense. It just isn't working. Again - that's not all on Griffin's 'attitude', or there's not evidence it is anyway.

I say all that with respect that most see it differently. But as brutal a beating as Griffin is taking on and off the field these days, I just feel the need to provide some balance. The mess that is the Washington Redskins is far from being all on Robert Griffin (not that you are saying it is).



Ahhh....we finally find common ground!

agree completely Boone.

here's the thing that I can't wrap my brain around. RG has declined. no question. all this "it's always been there" stuff is nonsense. this has been a precipitous decline. something is going on behind the scenes. something that started with the Shanahans IMO. no idea what. but somewhere along the line some horrendous decisions have been made by ALL parties concerned. I don't know what they are...but I do know this: the Redskins are yet again wasting huge value; Griffin is letting his opportunity evaporate. in most circumstances I am aware of....both parties are incentivized to prevent this. doesn't look like that has been the case for quite a while now. Gruden is giving up after basically 3 games of RG. Griffin is retreating into a shell.....and repeating mistakes that are within his ability to fix.

some day...I hope....there will be an investigative reporter who probes for the truth and sets us all straight on what went on.

 

[GSF]

Thanks for your reply Boone. Just to clarify, I am not claiming to know that what I posted is correct or factual, I was just posting what I think is happening. What do I base it on? Well, Griffin's poor fundamentals were pointed out by several of the pundits before he was drafted, and several of them have pointed those poor fundamentals, like his footwork for example, many times over the last couple years. He just looks sloppy to me. It seems strange to me that he hasn't been able to clean that stuff up yet. Dilfer said today that he had firsthand knowledge that the Shanahans had tried to address the issue, but that Griffin didn't seem to accept or absorb that coaching for whatever reason. Fast forward a year and Gruden is referring to Griffin's lack of fundamentals in press conferences, and that lack of fundamentals is showing up big time in the games. Hell backed right into the fullback on a handoff play last Sunday.

So why hasn't someone as smart as Griffin been able to learn the fundamentals and how to better read defenses in 2 plus years? The only answer I come up with that he hasn't put the work in. Why hasn't he put the work in? The only answer I come up with is he doesn't think it's necessary. Griffin's play, his comments in press conferences(remember when he said that players like Manning and Brady didn't need the preseason last year?), and the comments of coaches, other players and former players all seem to back that up. Dilfer talked about the amount of "secret work" qbs like Manning, Brady, Brees, and Wilson did and continue to do to make sure they are learning as much as possible about the subtleties of the game like reading defenses. He said he didn't believe Griffin was doing that secret work and that was why he hadn't improved. I agree with that at this point. 3 weeks ago I felt very differently. I thought Griffin was going to comeback from the injury after observing closely from the sideline and studying very hard and light the league up. The exact opposite has happened.

I agree with you completely that Griffin is far from the only problem with the Redskins. Man it is so discouraging some times I really wonder why I keep coming back for more. I do think that the Redskins have put some nice talent around Griffin though in Morris, Garcon, Jackson, and Reed. I also think that Gruden is a very good offensive coach. Griffin should be playing better by now. Hell the offense looked pretty good with colt McCoy in there. Yes the oline is bad, especially now with Williams out, but as indecisive Griffin has looked, I don't think he would be playing much better behind an all pro line. I just don't think he is putting the work in during the week. I mean I know he goes to practice, but you always hear about the extra hours the great ones spend on the field after practice, or in the film room. I don't think Griffin is doing that extra work to become great.

 

[Cycleans]

I have a hard time believing Griffin doesn't put the work in. I think it's far more likely that he doesn't trust his protections. Truth be told I wouldn't either. The sad part for me is this kind of stuff happens more often than not with young QB's thrown to the wolves by teams and coaches on dysfunctional franchises. Where are these mythical franchise Qbs in the draft? The saviors...Bradford? Stafford? Ryan? Sanchez? How much success have they brought to their teams? I think it's a failed principal to pin your hopes on picking qbs high in the draft until you find a keeper.

 

[fansince62]

fansince62: this team has deep, systemic issues that need to be fixed. until they are....episodes like Griffin are just a rewind of the same soap opera plot.


for our edification, why don't you post the top 5 "systemic" issues so we'll know what the heck you are talking about?

I would like to analyze them instead of accepting face value whatever you throw that sticks to the wall.

sure! as long as the duty is reciprocated...no problem...I'll even provide some freebees:

- a poor culture in the locker room that has been such for years; aligned with this is evident lack of leadership which has also been such for years

- an owner who meddled with players and football decisions for years; by all appearances he has pulled back...but the damage...which has lasting effects (e.g., quality FAs who do not want to come here which means money is the deciding factor - limiting options elsewhere) has been done; a FO structure with unclear divisions of responsibility; no clear long-term strategy and aligned operational and tactical decision-making; no quality GMs for almost two decades

- a rotating merry-go-round of coaches and schemes based on short-term time horizons and VERY HIGH discounted present value functions for coaching staffs; a fanbase with similarly myopic time horizons

- a scouting department with a very uneven record in finding quality FAs and draft picks who develop into star or even 6 to 8 year players

- a complete inability to manage media relationships which contributes to an atmosphere of antagonism and mistrust

- by media accounts, a workstaff that is eternally stressed under constant threat of firing

- an obvious lack of discipline year after year that traces to culture and lack of accountability

by all means...please provide contrarian thoughts that support the notion that 20+ years of losing football is the product of simply not supplying coaches with players that match their schemes - when one core problem has been a new HC (and therefore scheme) every 2-4 years. that RGIII self-destructed on his own, as has just about every other QB in the last decade who has had the living tar pounded out of them, because of inherent limitations and no longer-term organizational dysfunctions that have CONSISTENTLY led to the SAME results. that is, I guess, one possible narrative. it is a root cause analysis of sorts!

ultimately, this team is a repeatung failure fundamentally because of a lack of leadership....at all levels and through the decades.

 

[Primus Porcus]

So, why did we hire Gruden? He either sold a bill of goods to the FO or the FO wanted to get rid of RG3...I think it's the former.

Or Gruden was asked to develop Griffin into his scheme as a pocket style passer and he's falling short in his development

If we are going to question the hiring of a coach who might be falling short developing the player into what was wanted, we cant discount the player's part of that scenario. Had Gruden benched Griffin day 1, I'd agree that he never gave it a shot, but I have to assume that Gruden IS doing what he can to teach Griffin...

 

[fansince62]

Or Gruden was asked to develop Griffin into his scheme as a pocket style passer and he's falling short in his development

If we are going to question the hiring of a coach who might be falling short developing the player into what was wanted, we cant discount the player's part of that scenario. Had Gruden benched Griffin day 1, I'd agree that he never gave it a shot, but I have to assume that Gruden IS doing what he can to teach Griffin...

the problem..ST...is that Griffin isn't the only trouble spot. I'd normally agree with you. but after repeated poor passpro, horrific games by the defense, continual headwork/discipline foul-ups (aren't we the second most penalized team in the league or in that neighborhood?), inconsistent ST play........I'd say a whole lotta things aren't getting fixed.

 

[Anne The Fan]

Sorry for being so out of the loop, but can anyone tell me why we don’t have a Quarterbacks coach? I know that the previous one (LaFleur) was let go during the regime change. Why did this new staff decide not to bring in a replacement?

 

[Elephant]

Sorry for being so out of the loop, but can anyone tell me why we don’t have a Quarterbacks coach? I know that the previous one (LaFleur) was let go during the regime change. Why did this new staff decide not to bring in a replacement?

It's my understanding McVay is playing the dual role…OC and QB coach.

 

[Goaldeje]

Or Gruden was asked to develop Griffin into his scheme as a pocket style passer and he's falling short in his development

If we are going to question the hiring of a coach who might be falling short developing the player into what was wanted, we cant discount the player's part of that scenario. Had Gruden benched Griffin day 1, I'd agree that he never gave it a shot, but I have to assume that Gruden IS doing what he can to teach Griffin...

So instead Gruden gives him three games and publically undermines him? Yes, it sucks Griff got injured, but Gruden should factor that in.